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#3309854 - 01/01/23 05:46 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: arlaunch]
Coyote-conquest Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 333
Loc: Kentucky, US
Originally Posted By: arlaunch
W748 starts to get crazy accurate in the 26.5-27.0 range in NATO chambers.

WSR primers lighting the fire make it just a little more accurate than other brand primers it seems.

What charge range did you run IMR XBR 8208?
I'll have to look at my notes but I'm thinking it was 23.8 gr.

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#3310276 - 01/05/23 06:34 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Coyote-conquest Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 333
Loc: Kentucky, US
Just an update. After spending the day working up and shooting loads I'm really surprised with the results. It's actually opposite of what I thought it would be. These were both shot using Vortex Diamondback HP 4-16x42 scopes
The ARP barrel is so far a lot more accurate. After scoping it when I first received it I thought for sure I had a shotgun. The last 1 1/2" of the muzzle looked horrible.

The WOA was beautiful inside and out. It was lapped and smooth. The trouble is I can't find a consistent load for the it. It will shoot a load fairly good at say .8 MOA or sometimes less but when I verify it it will open by an inch or more. I'm not sure what to think. I'll take it apart and clean it and put it back together making sure everything is tight.

The ARP on the other hand is a laser beam. Shooting 55 gr Vmax with Benchmark loaded and shot one round at a time out of a magazine. I always let the bolt slam home each time. I do it to make sure I don't get a flyer on the first round.
24.5gr-.921 MOA
25gr -.789 MOA
25.5gr- .654 MOA

10 shot group of 25.5 grains was .942 MOA. It just stacks them. I have no doubt this is as good as I can shoot.

25.3 gr of Varget with 69 gr TMKs shot .82 and .79 MOA. That load was pulled from Sierras accuracy load. I would definitely recommend the ARP barrel to anybody looking for a new barrel

I did a full work up with Ramshot X-terminator and some 55 gr Nosler FBSPs I got from RMR a few years ago. Went for 24-26 gr in increments of.3. I couldn't get them to shoot better than 2". I'm pretty sure it's the bullets. Oh well.

I'll update this again after I rebuild the upper with the WOA barrel. I really hope I can get it shooting.

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#3310318 - 01/06/23 06:12 AM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Mort98 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/21/14
Posts: 141
Loc: IN
I wouldn't count out the WOA barrel till you get a couple hundred rounds thru it. I have several barrels that were very frustrating at first but after a couple hundred rounds settled in to become tack drivers. Edit to add: I wouldn't be too concerned with thoroughly cleaning it unless I was changing bullets. (switching from VMAX to TMK's etc.)


Edited by Mort98 (01/06/23 06:18 AM)

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#3310430 - 01/06/23 08:29 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Coyote-conquest Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 333
Loc: Kentucky, US
I hope you're right. It has close to 200 rounds now and possibly more. I wish I would've actually kept track. I know it's north of 150 by the bag of brass sitting on my bench.

It's just frustrating when a barrel that cost more than $100 less out shoots it by a lot.
I really thought it would be the other way around.
I've never cleaned a barrel in between different bullets unless they are monos. I've never seen a reason to.
I do want to take it apart and clean it just so when I try again I know it's clean and everything is tight. I can also scope it to see if there is something going on with it that I missed.

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#3310442 - 01/06/23 10:49 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Kino M Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1460
Loc: USA
So maybe I can help you out a little, I have a really nice private range where we train every week and shoot almost every weekend from spring to fall. We have about 8-9 different WOA 18" SPRs there between us. Every single one is a shooter. Our "standard" load for shooting steel is 24gr of TAC, 75BTHP Hornady or 77SMK in matching LC or Starline 556 brass. Every rifle is 3/4 moa or less. The SMKs are a little more accurate but a lot more money. I have ran this load to 1216 in Nevada and full size ipsc is pretty easy.

A GREAT shooting hunting load that I came up with that shoots great in all of them also is 53vmax, 24.7gr of Benchmark, Starline 556 brass.

We all run cci 450 primers in both loads.
_________________________
Been there, done that many times and have the DD214 to prove it....

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#3310671 - 01/09/23 07:52 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Coyote-conquest Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 333
Loc: Kentucky, US
Unfortunately 24 and 24.5 gr of Tac with Hornady 75 gr HPBT and 77 gr Nosler CCs we're the first loads I tried. The Nosler CCs are very accurate in the ARP barrel. I have more loaded up in Starline brass for hopefully tomorrow. I just have Starline .223 brass. I have 5.56 on order.

I have a few 53 gr Vmaxs left I can try. I have several lbs of Benchmark.

I have a private range in my front yard and can shoot all the way to 800. Finding the time to shoot between work and weather is the problem.

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#3310756 - 01/10/23 08:12 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Coyote-conquest Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 333
Loc: Kentucky, US
Another update. I took everything apart and put it back together. I also cleaned it really good. I shot a bunch of old 53 gr winchester HP target bullets that I loaded with 24.5 grains of Tac just to fowl it up again.

From there I shot some groups of 24 and 24.5 grains of TAC with 75 gr Hornady and 77 gr Nosler CCs. Some shot pretty good. I never could get 5 under an inch. I can get 4 and even 3 to clover leaf. All had random fliers. That's where the good ends.

I have something going on. The brass is horribly filthy. I've never seen brass this dirty. And some has a really thick ring of gunk at the base after it's shot. Some of it the ring doesn't go all the way around and it's dirtier on one side. Some of the brass is normal looking with just the neck dirty.

Something else is when I was sighting it back in I accidently loaded some BTs. When I went to unchamber one. The bullet was down in the case.

I did some experimenting and would chamber and unchamber some. Most were good but a few of the bullets were inside the case.

It has to be when it feeds it's pushing the bullet into the case on several. When it fires it's not sealing the chamber. At the same time it's creating all kinds of fliers.

Watching it it appears to be feeding them alright. It was brand new Starline brass with plenty of neck tension. This was out of a 10 Rd PMAG and a 10 Rd ASC mag.

I'm not sure what to do. I've never had this problem. I did have to adjust the feed lips on a mag for my 6x6.8 because it was slamming the round into the feed ramps and stopping. These are being slammed and the bullet is going down in the case. I would hate to crimp and not sure how much it will help with as hard as they have to be hitting.

Edit to add I was getting pieces primers. Not on all the cases but had a few random ones until the end. It pierced the last 8. All CCI 450s.it could be because it's building up excessive carbon or maybe a headspace issue. I have another bolt I can put in it.

It has an adjustable gas block and was adjusted to where it didn't eject and slowly opened u til it did.


Edited by Coyote-conquest (01/10/23 09:21 PM)

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#3310772 - 01/10/23 11:40 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Mike B Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 2808
Loc: central PA
On the possibility of crimping, this seems to be why crimping was created? Or more neck tension if you want to go that direction? Others will be along with more AR specific experience to comment, but have you tried crimped ammo in it? May not do too bad if you try? Im truly curious to see others experience on this.
_________________________
Mike B

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#3310776 - 01/11/23 05:44 AM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Coyote-conquest Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 333
Loc: Kentucky, US
Maybe but I always considered bullet set back something that could possibly happen. Not something that will happen everytime. It's brand new Starline brass so I'm sure it has enough neck tension. I tried straight out of the bag and after running a expander down it. Didn't make a difference.

If it's slamming hard enough to where it's pushing the bullet in the case most of the time then I'm not sure if crimping will fix it.

It could be that it's not pushing the bullet in to the case as much as I think. It could be a head space issue causing the fouling.

I'm going to have to do some testing with a new bolt and maybe turning the gas all the way off to see if it's still doing it. I can also chamber the round by riding the charging handle. I ran out of time yesterday.

I've built several ARs in several calibers and have never had this problem before.

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#3310777 - 01/11/23 06:36 AM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Mort98 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/21/14
Posts: 141
Loc: IN
I would reach out to WOA. Explain your issues. I'm sure they will take care of you!

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#3310806 - 01/11/23 01:06 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Mike B Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 2808
Loc: central PA
Thinking about it now, and realizing this is an AR (I'm not the most experienced at them - figured someone w experience woulda chimed in by now), this could be a mag/mag lip bent/alignment issue? Just a thought, but i see that you tried 2 diff mags from different makers.
_________________________
Mike B

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#3311004 - 01/13/23 12:22 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Coyote-conquest Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 333
Loc: Kentucky, US
I'm surprised nobody else has chimed in but I think I may have solved the problem. I switched out the bolts. I wasn't really sure if that could be the problem. I switched the bolt and ran a couple patches down the bore. I shot maybe 20 rounds and the brass looked like normal brass.

The BCG came from PSA from their Black Friday sale. I bought 2 of them. They are both different. One says 9310 with MPI under it. The other says MPI with 9310 under it. Different fonts.
I haven't used the second one.
The bolt may be in spec but I could have tolerance stacking. I'll have to put it in another AR to see. I don't think my Calibers are accurate enough to measure anything.

I had an old striped bolt from Damage Industries that I've had for a few years. That's the one I replaced it with. I put it together to use it so I could make sure it was a different manufacturer. Hopefully it holds up.

I guess it was a headspace issue. Maybe the brass wasn't able to expand enough to seal? You see old surplus rifles that cause case head separations but I've never heard of them causing excessive fouling.
When I say excessive it was crazy bad. When you picked up the brass it left your fingerprints in the carbon. I had just cleaned everything and shot maybe 40 rounds the other day, the BCG was already covered and the bolt had really thick blue carbon built up behind the head.
I've went several hundred rounds on other ARs before cleaning and it's nowhere near that bad.

I'll shoot it some more in a day or 2 if the weather gets better just to make sure its solved for sure. I'm also still curious about the accuracy.

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#3312128 - 01/24/23 06:42 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Coyote-conquest Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 333
Loc: Kentucky, US
Another update. The excessive carbon isn't solved. I shot several rounds today and it's back. Accuracy wasn't the greatest. I'm wondering if it's carbon related. It will shoot a group that looks good but has a flier. I can never get 5 under an inch. Always 4 and a flier but then the next group will be 2". I'm not sure what else to do so I emailed White Oak.

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#3312180 - 01/24/23 10:53 PM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Mort98]
Plant.One Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 4956
Loc: Oakland County, MI
Originally Posted By: Mort98
I would reach out to WOA. Explain your issues. I'm sure they will take care of you!


i came here to say this, but knew in my heart it had already been said. thumbup


op: send them pics of your brass and that load data. that should tell them everything they need to know. i bet you have a shipping label rather fast.
_________________________
All reloading info shared is based on my experiences in my guns. Follow safe reloading practice and work up loads from published minimum data.
This disclaimer will self destruct in 10 seconds.


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#3312206 - 01/25/23 09:20 AM Re: WOA 3 gun 18" barrels [Re: Coyote-conquest]
Coyotejunki Offline
PM senior

Registered: 04/03/04
Posts: 5208
Loc: MO
Just a WAG, But I would check the gas system. Start with the BCG, is the gas key tight and the two screws staked? Clean the chamber and barrel extension, remove the excess carbon. Single load one rd at a time, shoot, pay attention if the BCG locks back on the mag and what direction the brass is ejecting. Is it ejecting at 4 o'clock position? You may need an adjustable gas block or open the gas port.

Check headspace as mentioned above also.

BTW, Most of my AR's are over gassed, so I put adjustable gas blocks on them. Some people like heavier BCG's, Buffer springs, and or buffers. YMMV...

Again I am NO expert, just guessing.

I ordered the middle weight 3 gun WOA barrel and am waiting for it. I am playing with an ODIN 18" barrel that is pretty accurate so far and I bought a Larue complete upper that is also accurate, but the chamber in the Larue looks rough IMO, functions fine so far. I use a suppressor so I have ADJ gas blocks on them. With the suppressor the brass seems to come out dirtier than when I don't use it.
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