Someone tried telling me if my surpressor is at my house and my wife is home and I'm not she could or we could get in trouble is this true or not? I know I could put her on a trust and it would be ok but I would think if it's my residence that nobody would get in trouble for me having my surpressor at home and them being at my house without me. Anybody know?
Surpressors in my house?
- Thread starter zr600
- Start date
Plant.One
Well-known member
as a registered NFA item you're required to be in control of said item 100% of the time. you cant loan them out or leave them unattended where someone else can access them when you're not around. another person can use your NFA item but only if you're present at the time.
the ATF isnt going to come into your house to double check, but if something should happen - is it worth the risk of your wife being charged with posession of a NFA item shes not registered to be in posession of?
If you're just purchasing - go the trust route and put her name on the trust. or as 3dhusker said - store it in your safe and you're ok.
if you've already got it listed under individual ownership, it's gonna cost you another $200 stamp to move it to a trust ownership. its crappy but that's how it goes.
if you have any questions about this kind of thing - call your local ATF agent - or even better write them a letter. you dont have to take my or anyone elses word for it online. they'd rather educate you than arrest you. they'll confirm 100% for you the requirements on what they define as "under your control" and what you need to do to legally keep others who the item is not registered to (or a "responsible party" in a trust/corporation allowed to be in posession of) protected from facing any legal repercussions around NFA items.
the ATF isnt going to come into your house to double check, but if something should happen - is it worth the risk of your wife being charged with posession of a NFA item shes not registered to be in posession of?
If you're just purchasing - go the trust route and put her name on the trust. or as 3dhusker said - store it in your safe and you're ok.
if you've already got it listed under individual ownership, it's gonna cost you another $200 stamp to move it to a trust ownership. its crappy but that's how it goes.
if you have any questions about this kind of thing - call your local ATF agent - or even better write them a letter. you dont have to take my or anyone elses word for it online. they'd rather educate you than arrest you. they'll confirm 100% for you the requirements on what they define as "under your control" and what you need to do to legally keep others who the item is not registered to (or a "responsible party" in a trust/corporation allowed to be in posession of) protected from facing any legal repercussions around NFA items.
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Originally Posted By: Plant.One
the ATF isnt going to come into your house to double check, but if something should happen - is it worth the risk of your wife being charged with posession of a NFA item shes not registered to be in posession of?
Let me think about that!!!
the ATF isnt going to come into your house to double check, but if something should happen - is it worth the risk of your wife being charged with posession of a NFA item shes not registered to be in posession of?
Let me think about that!!!
Only one agent, an ATF agent, can check for your tax stamp without a warrant. Then they have to check with you for it and they are NOT able to search the house looking for a silencer if you are not home.
In other words, who ever told you that, doesn't know spit about what they are talking about.
In other words, who ever told you that, doesn't know spit about what they are talking about.
Plant.One
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: ShoesIf it's in a safe and she knows where the key is, is it really "out" of her posession?
at least there's plausible deniability in a case of a safe stored item. especially if its a combination type safe. if she has a key to the safe on her car key ring that's in her purse... maybe not so much.
however - if said suppressor were unsecured and just as an example - your wife had to use a firearm to defend herself in an area where said suppressor were stored. lets say she shoots an intruder in your bedroom and you have your NFA stuff hidden under the bed. a forensic team doing an evaluation of the scene is probably going to find it and now an otherwise potentially lawful home defense situation could easily turn into a legal problem for your family. is this likely? probably not. but as mythbusters would say....
Originally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: Plant.One
the ATF isnt going to come into your house to double check, but if something should happen - is it worth the risk of your wife being charged with posession of a NFA item shes not registered to be in posession of?
Let me think about that!!!
good point
i cant say i'd considered that to be quite as loaded of a statement as it turned out to be
Originally Posted By: ChorizoOnly one agent, an ATF agent, can check for your tax stamp without a warrant. Then they have to check with you for it and they are NOT able to search the house looking for a silencer if you are not home.
In other words, who ever told you that, doesn't know spit about what they are talking about.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration
while this statement is 100% true - you HAVE to be able to produce the stamp anytime a BATFE agent asks for it and are required to at least keep a copy of the stamp with your NFA item - you'd be foolish NOT to be willing to produce it anytime ANY LEO asks you for it. If you refuse you're more than likely going down to the station and be held in custody until such a time as the warrant is issued for said documentation to be produced. Likewise if its corporation/trust registered, you best be able to produce some kind of documents showing that you're legally able to possess as a member of the corporation/trust. If you wanna be that fussy about it and put up with that kind of hassle, more power to you.
my point is...They're GOING to find out who's the legal owner of any NFA device one way or another.
If i were in a situation where an officer of is asking for it on any kind of offical capacity... Might as well take the low hanging fruit and show them the paperwork.
not only do i have a physical paper copy of my stamp & form 4 with my suppressor (stored in its case) but i also have a digital copy of it - stored in the cloud on my google docs in a private folder. the chances of me not having my phone with me and my paper documents being damaged beyond readability are pretty slim.
at least there's plausible deniability in a case of a safe stored item. especially if its a combination type safe. if she has a key to the safe on her car key ring that's in her purse... maybe not so much.
however - if said suppressor were unsecured and just as an example - your wife had to use a firearm to defend herself in an area where said suppressor were stored. lets say she shoots an intruder in your bedroom and you have your NFA stuff hidden under the bed. a forensic team doing an evaluation of the scene is probably going to find it and now an otherwise potentially lawful home defense situation could easily turn into a legal problem for your family. is this likely? probably not. but as mythbusters would say....
Originally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: Plant.One
the ATF isnt going to come into your house to double check, but if something should happen - is it worth the risk of your wife being charged with posession of a NFA item shes not registered to be in posession of?
Let me think about that!!!
good point
i cant say i'd considered that to be quite as loaded of a statement as it turned out to be
Originally Posted By: ChorizoOnly one agent, an ATF agent, can check for your tax stamp without a warrant. Then they have to check with you for it and they are NOT able to search the house looking for a silencer if you are not home.
In other words, who ever told you that, doesn't know spit about what they are talking about.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration
while this statement is 100% true - you HAVE to be able to produce the stamp anytime a BATFE agent asks for it and are required to at least keep a copy of the stamp with your NFA item - you'd be foolish NOT to be willing to produce it anytime ANY LEO asks you for it. If you refuse you're more than likely going down to the station and be held in custody until such a time as the warrant is issued for said documentation to be produced. Likewise if its corporation/trust registered, you best be able to produce some kind of documents showing that you're legally able to possess as a member of the corporation/trust. If you wanna be that fussy about it and put up with that kind of hassle, more power to you.
my point is...They're GOING to find out who's the legal owner of any NFA device one way or another.
If i were in a situation where an officer of is asking for it on any kind of offical capacity... Might as well take the low hanging fruit and show them the paperwork.
not only do i have a physical paper copy of my stamp & form 4 with my suppressor (stored in its case) but i also have a digital copy of it - stored in the cloud on my google docs in a private folder. the chances of me not having my phone with me and my paper documents being damaged beyond readability are pretty slim.
What you are choosing to do voluntarily and what you are required to are two distinct and different things.
I choose to follow the law as written and not fall prey to an overreach of authority.
I do carry a copy of the regulation with me that does show that ONLY an ATF agent may ask for your Stamp and that the authority to do so has NOT been delegated to any other agency or authority.
The law is oppressive enough without self adding.
I choose to follow the law as written and not fall prey to an overreach of authority.
I do carry a copy of the regulation with me that does show that ONLY an ATF agent may ask for your Stamp and that the authority to do so has NOT been delegated to any other agency or authority.
The law is oppressive enough without self adding.
Originally Posted By: ChorizoWhat you are choosing to do voluntarily and what you are required to are two distinct and different things.
I choose to follow the law as written and not fall prey to an overreach of authority.
I do carry a copy of the regulation with me that does show that ONLY an ATF agent may ask for your Stamp and that the authority to do so has NOT been delegated to any other agency or authority.
The law is oppressive enough without self adding.
Too bad this board doesn't have a simple "like" feature. But, consider this a "like".
- DAA
I choose to follow the law as written and not fall prey to an overreach of authority.
I do carry a copy of the regulation with me that does show that ONLY an ATF agent may ask for your Stamp and that the authority to do so has NOT been delegated to any other agency or authority.
The law is oppressive enough without self adding.
Too bad this board doesn't have a simple "like" feature. But, consider this a "like".
- DAA
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-appendix/download
Specifically § 479.84 As it is a TAX stamp, normal LEO procedures do not apply.
26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e) Says you must show your tax stamp (not the silencer) upon request of the Secretary (or his designated agent, which in this case is an ATF agent) They cannot give out to local law enforcement any information on WHO has a stamp as that is Tax information and it is privileged information. That is one reason that only ATF agents may check your stamp. The other is that a Supreme Court case ruled that Tax information may NOT be shared.
Think of this analogy: Could the local city police show up at your house on April 16th (this year 19th) the day after you must file you taxes and ask to see a copy of your return to see if you have filed? [beeep], no. Same rule applies in this case. Nobody but an ATF agent has the authority to check your stamp. It has not been delegated and cannot be delegated to any other agency, Law Enforcement or otherwise. In 1976 to conform with a Supreme Court case, the law was modified to PREVENT the Secretary from delegating authority to other agencies.
See Below:
Amendments
1976—Subsecs. (a), (c) to (e). Pub. L. 94–455 struck out “or his delegate” after “Secretary” wherever appearing.
Note the Code below: It is listed under the Internal Revenue Code (IRS)
26 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2011 Edition
Title 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
Subtitle E - Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes
CHAPTER 53 - MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
Subchapter B - General Provisions and Exemptions
PART I - GENERAL PROVISIONS
Sec. 5841 - Registration of firearms
Specifically § 479.84 As it is a TAX stamp, normal LEO procedures do not apply.
26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e) Says you must show your tax stamp (not the silencer) upon request of the Secretary (or his designated agent, which in this case is an ATF agent) They cannot give out to local law enforcement any information on WHO has a stamp as that is Tax information and it is privileged information. That is one reason that only ATF agents may check your stamp. The other is that a Supreme Court case ruled that Tax information may NOT be shared.
Think of this analogy: Could the local city police show up at your house on April 16th (this year 19th) the day after you must file you taxes and ask to see a copy of your return to see if you have filed? [beeep], no. Same rule applies in this case. Nobody but an ATF agent has the authority to check your stamp. It has not been delegated and cannot be delegated to any other agency, Law Enforcement or otherwise. In 1976 to conform with a Supreme Court case, the law was modified to PREVENT the Secretary from delegating authority to other agencies.
See Below:
Amendments
1976—Subsecs. (a), (c) to (e). Pub. L. 94–455 struck out “or his delegate” after “Secretary” wherever appearing.
Note the Code below: It is listed under the Internal Revenue Code (IRS)
26 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2011 Edition
Title 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
Subtitle E - Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes
CHAPTER 53 - MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
Subchapter B - General Provisions and Exemptions
PART I - GENERAL PROVISIONS
Sec. 5841 - Registration of firearms
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Airedale56
Member
Well, I used to write checks to the US Treasury for NFA items.
The last one was written to BATFE.
So, has it morphed into a FEE or is it still a TAX?
Anyone have an answer to that?
The last one was written to BATFE.
So, has it morphed into a FEE or is it still a TAX?
Anyone have an answer to that?
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Plant.One
Well-known member
i am not a lawyer, but this fella apparently is. you may wish to check with a local attorney to verify if the information in this article apply to you in your state of residence.
i feel he summarizes it fairly clearly. but i am only including his summary for brevity's sake. if you want the legalese leading up to it click the link.
http://www.myguntrust.com/do-i-need-to-carry-proof-of-registration-for-my-nfa-firearm-in-texas.html
Quote:What does all of this legalese mean? Well, in the unlikely event that an ATF agent were to ever knock on your door and request to see your proof of registration for your NFA firearm, you would be required to do so under Federal law. More likely, if a law enforcement officer in Texas (e.g., police officer, sheriff, state trooper, or game warden) observed you in possession of an NFA firearm while hunting, travelling, or at the shooting range, and he or she requested to see your proof of registration for your NFA firearm, you would also be required to do so under Texas law.
To be able to provide proof of registration, I advise my clients that they should always have a copy of the ATF tax stamp for each NFA firearm in their possession, a copy of their Texas NFA gun trust, including any amendments, and their Texas driver’s license. The ATF tax stamp identifies the registrant (such as an individual or an NFA gun trust) and the make, model, and serial number of the registered NFA firearm. If the registrant is an individual, the registrant can produce his or her driver’s license or other acceptable form of identification to prove that he or she is the registrant. However, if the registrant is an NFA gun trust, the person in possession of the NFA firearm will need to prove that he or she is a trustee of the NFA gun trust since the NFA gun trust is the document that identifies the individuals with the right to use and possess trust property (i.e., the trustees). Note: A Certification of Trust also identifies all of the trustees of the NFA gun trust. Once the person proves that he or she is a trustee of the NFA gun trust listed on the ATF tax stamp, the person can produce his or her driver’s license or other acceptable form of identification to prove that he or she is the trustee identified in the NFA gun trust. No problem. Have a nice day, sir/ma’am.
i feel he summarizes it fairly clearly. but i am only including his summary for brevity's sake. if you want the legalese leading up to it click the link.
http://www.myguntrust.com/do-i-need-to-carry-proof-of-registration-for-my-nfa-firearm-in-texas.html
Quote:What does all of this legalese mean? Well, in the unlikely event that an ATF agent were to ever knock on your door and request to see your proof of registration for your NFA firearm, you would be required to do so under Federal law. More likely, if a law enforcement officer in Texas (e.g., police officer, sheriff, state trooper, or game warden) observed you in possession of an NFA firearm while hunting, travelling, or at the shooting range, and he or she requested to see your proof of registration for your NFA firearm, you would also be required to do so under Texas law.
To be able to provide proof of registration, I advise my clients that they should always have a copy of the ATF tax stamp for each NFA firearm in their possession, a copy of their Texas NFA gun trust, including any amendments, and their Texas driver’s license. The ATF tax stamp identifies the registrant (such as an individual or an NFA gun trust) and the make, model, and serial number of the registered NFA firearm. If the registrant is an individual, the registrant can produce his or her driver’s license or other acceptable form of identification to prove that he or she is the registrant. However, if the registrant is an NFA gun trust, the person in possession of the NFA firearm will need to prove that he or she is a trustee of the NFA gun trust since the NFA gun trust is the document that identifies the individuals with the right to use and possess trust property (i.e., the trustees). Note: A Certification of Trust also identifies all of the trustees of the NFA gun trust. Once the person proves that he or she is a trustee of the NFA gun trust listed on the ATF tax stamp, the person can produce his or her driver’s license or other acceptable form of identification to prove that he or she is the trustee identified in the NFA gun trust. No problem. Have a nice day, sir/ma’am.