55 GR Nosler 243?
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I have shot a few coyotes with the 55gn but in the smaller case 6x45. The 6x45 cant get near the velocity of the 243 so not much of a comparison I guess. Still though for shots not more than about 200 yards I liked the killing effect. I was very surprised though to find that on broad side shots they did shoot through coyotes. Not too bad an exit hole but a hole none the less. I figured they must use a fairly heavy jacket so they will stand up to the 4000 + fps the bigger cases can push them to. With the lower velocity of the 6x45 case they seem to act more like a controlled expansion big game bullet than a varmint bullet.
As someone else mentioned I too am a big fan of the Sierra 60gn HP and those tend to stay in a coyote.
As someone else mentioned I too am a big fan of the Sierra 60gn HP and those tend to stay in a coyote.
Originally Posted By: 5spdI run them in my .243 at 3886 fps, pencil barrel 22" long, runs at 5/8" @ 100 yds.
I also run them in my 6x45 at 3063fps and they lay coyote out even at 589 yards nicely.
Don't you find that at ranges beyond 250 to 300 yards that the 55gn bullets get a bit drifty in the wind? I know you too have wind in Wyoming. 589 yards on a coyote is one tough shot in the wind even with a bullet with a much higher BC. The BC on a 6mm 55gn bullet is little better than poor.
I always figured that to make a quick kill on a coyote you have about a 6" circle you have to stay inside of. At 589 yards that is holding very close to MOA to stay within that quick kill zone.
Even then at that range that little bullet is not only shedding velocity fast but energy as well and there is just not much left. If you hit spine the coyote is down right now but if you don't might be quite a different story.
Me personally I use the little bullet for early season calling where over all shots are going to be either very close or on average less than 200 yards. Once the snow comes to stay and things open up a bit I switch to a bigger case cartridge with a higher BC bullet. In winter when things are more open and the coyotes have heard about every call in use my shots will be closer to 400 yards on average. I am not a very good shot and so need to stack the deck in my favor as much as possible. Who was it that said, " chance favors a prepared mind" ?
I also run them in my 6x45 at 3063fps and they lay coyote out even at 589 yards nicely.
Don't you find that at ranges beyond 250 to 300 yards that the 55gn bullets get a bit drifty in the wind? I know you too have wind in Wyoming. 589 yards on a coyote is one tough shot in the wind even with a bullet with a much higher BC. The BC on a 6mm 55gn bullet is little better than poor.
I always figured that to make a quick kill on a coyote you have about a 6" circle you have to stay inside of. At 589 yards that is holding very close to MOA to stay within that quick kill zone.
Even then at that range that little bullet is not only shedding velocity fast but energy as well and there is just not much left. If you hit spine the coyote is down right now but if you don't might be quite a different story.
Me personally I use the little bullet for early season calling where over all shots are going to be either very close or on average less than 200 yards. Once the snow comes to stay and things open up a bit I switch to a bigger case cartridge with a higher BC bullet. In winter when things are more open and the coyotes have heard about every call in use my shots will be closer to 400 yards on average. I am not a very good shot and so need to stack the deck in my favor as much as possible. Who was it that said, " chance favors a prepared mind" ?
I have had no big drift issues that I worry about & have my drop/drift card attaches to my rigs since I shoot/practice a lot in the winds.
The 6x45 and 589 yard shot was in a 5mph wind and I held on his neck and hit 7" right as I knew it would at the shoulder, dropped on the spot after it spun 2x.
I don't change weights in my rigs no matter the time of year Im calling as I don't want to have charts/note for every different load or have to re sight the scope. 99% of the time they are under 100 yards any way.
The 6x45 and 589 yard shot was in a 5mph wind and I held on his neck and hit 7" right as I knew it would at the shoulder, dropped on the spot after it spun 2x.
I don't change weights in my rigs no matter the time of year Im calling as I don't want to have charts/note for every different load or have to re sight the scope. 99% of the time they are under 100 yards any way.
DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
Quote:
Don't you find that at ranges beyond 250 to 300 yards that the 55gn bullets get a bit drifty in the wind?
55gr NBT @ 3850 fps (BC .276)
87gr Vmax @ 3100 fps (BC .400)
Run the ballistic charts. The 87 Vmax has a slight advantage in the wind under 500 yards. We're talking about 2" difference at 500 yards, and practically nothing* at reasonable hunting distances under 200-300 yards. But the faster 55gr shoots a lot flatter! If you select the high BC 87gr Vmax based on it's wind bucking ability, you're ill-informed.
You don't see much advantage in the wind unless you go to the heavier 105gr or 115gr type bullets. They do make a big difference if you plan on shooting long distance frequently.
The 55gr NBT does pretty well at normal predator hunting distances.
Don't you find that at ranges beyond 250 to 300 yards that the 55gn bullets get a bit drifty in the wind?
55gr NBT @ 3850 fps (BC .276)
87gr Vmax @ 3100 fps (BC .400)
Run the ballistic charts. The 87 Vmax has a slight advantage in the wind under 500 yards. We're talking about 2" difference at 500 yards, and practically nothing* at reasonable hunting distances under 200-300 yards. But the faster 55gr shoots a lot flatter! If you select the high BC 87gr Vmax based on it's wind bucking ability, you're ill-informed.
You don't see much advantage in the wind unless you go to the heavier 105gr or 115gr type bullets. They do make a big difference if you plan on shooting long distance frequently.
The 55gr NBT does pretty well at normal predator hunting distances.
In my 6x284 with 1/7" twist shooting the sierra 107gn I can get up to 3200 fps but the load I use for best accuracy gets 3100 fps. Without looking at any chart I am going to wager a guess that at ranges beyond 400 yards that load will cut the wind drift in half of the 55gn at the 3850 you give.
That is what I meant about going to a bigger case and bullet with higher BC in late season when my shots are seldom less than 400 yards and farther. I have not infrequently shot much farther out to 600 yards and as far as 800 yards if that is what the situation calls for. No kills yet at 800 but do have a few at 600 ish
There is good reason you don't see bench rest shooters using 55gn bullets in their 6mm PPC's and 6mm BR's and that reason is BC and they are shooting to 300 yards.
Like I said earlier I like to stack the deck in my favor and since I am neither a good shot nor am I good at guessing wind velocity or value factor so I compensate somewhat for my shortcomings with BC.
Last year my long range coyote rifle was a 6mm/06. That rifle had a slow twist and I was limited to bullets like 87gn V-max you mention. I was not however limited to 3100 fps MV. My working load for that rifle was the Sierra 85gn SPT-BT at an average MV of 3777 fps. I can assure that it too out classed any 55gn 6mm bullet for wind drift at any range.
I guess its a personal thing what any body chooses to use and will be pretty much matched to the conditions in your area. My area is pretty much open where shot opportunities can be long especially at this time of year when most of the cover is under snow. For this type of shooting I choose to go with bullets with a higher BC than the light for caliber bullets have and I choose to launch them from a large enough case that is capable of enough velocity to take advantage of the higher BC and I don't feel ill-informed in the least about my choice.
That is what I meant about going to a bigger case and bullet with higher BC in late season when my shots are seldom less than 400 yards and farther. I have not infrequently shot much farther out to 600 yards and as far as 800 yards if that is what the situation calls for. No kills yet at 800 but do have a few at 600 ish
There is good reason you don't see bench rest shooters using 55gn bullets in their 6mm PPC's and 6mm BR's and that reason is BC and they are shooting to 300 yards.
Like I said earlier I like to stack the deck in my favor and since I am neither a good shot nor am I good at guessing wind velocity or value factor so I compensate somewhat for my shortcomings with BC.
Last year my long range coyote rifle was a 6mm/06. That rifle had a slow twist and I was limited to bullets like 87gn V-max you mention. I was not however limited to 3100 fps MV. My working load for that rifle was the Sierra 85gn SPT-BT at an average MV of 3777 fps. I can assure that it too out classed any 55gn 6mm bullet for wind drift at any range.
I guess its a personal thing what any body chooses to use and will be pretty much matched to the conditions in your area. My area is pretty much open where shot opportunities can be long especially at this time of year when most of the cover is under snow. For this type of shooting I choose to go with bullets with a higher BC than the light for caliber bullets have and I choose to launch them from a large enough case that is capable of enough velocity to take advantage of the higher BC and I don't feel ill-informed in the least about my choice.
DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
Great, but the OP did not ask about 6x284 or any other cartridge, nor did he ask about bullet choices for benchrest. He specifically asked about the 55gr Nosler 243 on coyotes.
I think "everybody" already knows that fancy high BC bullets buck the wind better at long distance. Shooting coyotes at 600-800 yards is neat-O, but that's not what the OP was asking about.
I think "everybody" already knows that fancy high BC bullets buck the wind better at long distance. Shooting coyotes at 600-800 yards is neat-O, but that's not what the OP was asking about.
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGGreat, but the OP did not ask about 6x284 or any other cartridge, nor did he ask about bullet choices for benchrest. He specifically asked about the 55gr Nosler 243 on coyotes.
I think "everybody" already knows that fancy high BC bullets buck the wind better at long distance. Shooting coyotes at 600-800 yards is neat-O, but that's not what the OP was asking about.
Ah!!! Have you been following the discussion? I was making comparisons to prove the points I was trying to make about my observations directly related to the op question and also offering the benefit of my experiance.
I was also told I was ill informed because I pointed out the advantage of higher BC which was directly related to the points I was trying to make in trying to offer a well rounded answer to the op. I think perhaps the op was looking for a little bit more than a yes or no answer. Making comparisons and presenting other points of view are how we learn from each other and might even be considered having a conversation which I thought was the whole point of sites such as this one.
Am I wrong in my opinion or have I done something wrong here that may have violated some forum rule?
If so then I guess this place is not what I thought it was and I will continue to search for another site where we can actually have open discussion and share our thoughts and experiences.
I think "everybody" already knows that fancy high BC bullets buck the wind better at long distance. Shooting coyotes at 600-800 yards is neat-O, but that's not what the OP was asking about.
Ah!!! Have you been following the discussion? I was making comparisons to prove the points I was trying to make about my observations directly related to the op question and also offering the benefit of my experiance.
I was also told I was ill informed because I pointed out the advantage of higher BC which was directly related to the points I was trying to make in trying to offer a well rounded answer to the op. I think perhaps the op was looking for a little bit more than a yes or no answer. Making comparisons and presenting other points of view are how we learn from each other and might even be considered having a conversation which I thought was the whole point of sites such as this one.
Am I wrong in my opinion or have I done something wrong here that may have violated some forum rule?
If so then I guess this place is not what I thought it was and I will continue to search for another site where we can actually have open discussion and share our thoughts and experiences.
55g Nosler loaded with a close to a max load of Varget or win 760 will probably exceed 3900 fps in a 24" 243. While I have not killed a coyote with the 55g Nosler, I have killed a LOT of coyotes with the 60g Sierra loaded to 3750+ in 243's using win 760. All coyotes hit behind the diaphragm just died right on the spot with this load, and the 55g Nosler would be just as good a bullet in my opinion.
It would be nice to hear of the poster's experience with the 6/284 with the 107's, also. I had a 6/284 for a while in the late 80's, shot the 85g BTHP with IMR 4831 for some of those long range Nevada shots.
It would be nice to hear of the poster's experience with the 6/284 with the 107's, also. I had a 6/284 for a while in the late 80's, shot the 85g BTHP with IMR 4831 for some of those long range Nevada shots.
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Laser range finders, ballistic programs, and mil dot or BDC scopes with precise click adjustments pretty much takes the hail Marry out of range estimating regardless of the trajectory. The big issue at least for me is the human factor in getting the wind right. Wind is the invisible enemy that twists and turns and speeds up and slows down at different points along a long range bullets flight. The only way I know to combat it is to add BC to your bullet.
I agree the lighter much faster starting out but lower BC bullet has the advantage of shorter time of flight to a certain range then at that range the higher BC begins to offer its advantage.
At that point the greater lag time of the much lower BC bullet falls victim to increased drift.
As I also tried to point out that a persons location is going to dictate what is needed either very fast or very efficient bullet design. My location offers 200 yards and less on average for the early season when there is no snow and 400 yards and more for the later season when there is snow.
Calling here at this time of year is very much different than other locations. Here at this time of year the best way I have found to produce fur is to first spot by judicious glassing then once a coyote has been spotted if it is extremely far move to a closer point that you can approach without spooking the coyote. That range is generally not less than 400 yards and most often more before I feel I cant get closer without spooking the coyote. Then at that point try coaxing it closer.
I watch some of the videos of coyotes charging to a rabbit distress call but here this time of year they mostly seem to just head away from those sounds while glancing back over their shoulder.
Coyote talk is what works for me at this time of year. Pairs are tough to call closer but single males can be persuaded by sounds of love from an apparent potential mate. Matter of fact the five coyotes I skinned last week were all males.
Anyway I seem to be drifting again away from the bullet thingy so I will re-iterate that your location will dictate your needs and mine dictates that in early season the 55gn 6mm bullet from small or large case works fine on coyotes but the latter half of the season demands more BC than a 55gn 6mm bullet has to offer. Just one mans experience to be sure but an observation derived from experience gained from many seasons gone by.
I agree the lighter much faster starting out but lower BC bullet has the advantage of shorter time of flight to a certain range then at that range the higher BC begins to offer its advantage.
At that point the greater lag time of the much lower BC bullet falls victim to increased drift.
As I also tried to point out that a persons location is going to dictate what is needed either very fast or very efficient bullet design. My location offers 200 yards and less on average for the early season when there is no snow and 400 yards and more for the later season when there is snow.
Calling here at this time of year is very much different than other locations. Here at this time of year the best way I have found to produce fur is to first spot by judicious glassing then once a coyote has been spotted if it is extremely far move to a closer point that you can approach without spooking the coyote. That range is generally not less than 400 yards and most often more before I feel I cant get closer without spooking the coyote. Then at that point try coaxing it closer.
I watch some of the videos of coyotes charging to a rabbit distress call but here this time of year they mostly seem to just head away from those sounds while glancing back over their shoulder.
Coyote talk is what works for me at this time of year. Pairs are tough to call closer but single males can be persuaded by sounds of love from an apparent potential mate. Matter of fact the five coyotes I skinned last week were all males.
Anyway I seem to be drifting again away from the bullet thingy so I will re-iterate that your location will dictate your needs and mine dictates that in early season the 55gn 6mm bullet from small or large case works fine on coyotes but the latter half of the season demands more BC than a 55gn 6mm bullet has to offer. Just one mans experience to be sure but an observation derived from experience gained from many seasons gone by.
Originally Posted By: ackleyman55g Nosler loaded with a close to a max load of Varget or win 760 will probably exceed 3900 fps in a 24" 243.
In my pals 24" w/a max (nosler book) load of w760 it runs an average of 4010 fps over the chrony.
I backed down to match his factory load of 3910 though, still very accurate to 500 yards and just drops coyotes on the spot w/out a 4" exit hole. Wind or not its there before you blink.
In my pals 24" w/a max (nosler book) load of w760 it runs an average of 4010 fps over the chrony.
I backed down to match his factory load of 3910 though, still very accurate to 500 yards and just drops coyotes on the spot w/out a 4" exit hole. Wind or not its there before you blink.
Ok so not being the type to accept someone else's opinion as fact I ran the numbers through Sierras infinity program. Here is what I got for wind drift with the 55gn at 4100 fps, the 87gn at 3777 fps and the 107gn at 3100 fps in a 10 mph full value wind
Nos 243 cal 55gn @ 4100 fps MV
100yd=.64 200yd=2.66 300yd=6.22 400yd=11.51 500yd=18.76 600yd=28.29 700yd=40.49 800yd=55.84
Hornady 87bthp @ 3777 fps MV
100yd=.51 200yd=2.1 300yd=4.85 400yd=8.88 500yd=14.31 600yd=21.3 700yd=30.02 800yd=40.69
Sierra 107hpbt @ 3100 fps MV
100yd=.45 200yd=1.86 300yd=4.28 400yd=7.79 500yd=12.5 600yd=18.5 700yd=25.91 800yd=34.86
OK now if you look at those numbers and consider what I said earlier about a coyote presenting about a 6" circle for a quick kill zone you will see that starting at about 200 yards the 55gn even starting it at 4100 fps MV and using a hold that is centered in that 6" kill zone has drifted very close to the edge of the zone. At 400 yards the light 55gn bullet has drifted enough for a complete miss where the other slower starting bullets are at least still hits.
At beyond 500 yards all three need some compensation for wind but the higher BC bullets are going to be more forgiving to miscalculations in wind velocity and value.
Since as I said by this time of year my shots are generally not less than 400 yards you can see why I switch to the higher BC bullets. For my early season I am quite happy with a smaller cartridge like my 6x45 with a lighter bullet such as the 55gn mentioned although my favorite bullet for coyotes in my 6x45 is the 70gn Speer TNT. With that bullet from the 24" barrel of my Rem 700 short I get 3150 fps MV in my 6x45 and it does well to the 400 yd limit in range I assign it to.
Nos 243 cal 55gn @ 4100 fps MV
100yd=.64 200yd=2.66 300yd=6.22 400yd=11.51 500yd=18.76 600yd=28.29 700yd=40.49 800yd=55.84
Hornady 87bthp @ 3777 fps MV
100yd=.51 200yd=2.1 300yd=4.85 400yd=8.88 500yd=14.31 600yd=21.3 700yd=30.02 800yd=40.69
Sierra 107hpbt @ 3100 fps MV
100yd=.45 200yd=1.86 300yd=4.28 400yd=7.79 500yd=12.5 600yd=18.5 700yd=25.91 800yd=34.86
OK now if you look at those numbers and consider what I said earlier about a coyote presenting about a 6" circle for a quick kill zone you will see that starting at about 200 yards the 55gn even starting it at 4100 fps MV and using a hold that is centered in that 6" kill zone has drifted very close to the edge of the zone. At 400 yards the light 55gn bullet has drifted enough for a complete miss where the other slower starting bullets are at least still hits.
At beyond 500 yards all three need some compensation for wind but the higher BC bullets are going to be more forgiving to miscalculations in wind velocity and value.
Since as I said by this time of year my shots are generally not less than 400 yards you can see why I switch to the higher BC bullets. For my early season I am quite happy with a smaller cartridge like my 6x45 with a lighter bullet such as the 55gn mentioned although my favorite bullet for coyotes in my 6x45 is the 70gn Speer TNT. With that bullet from the 24" barrel of my Rem 700 short I get 3150 fps MV in my 6x45 and it does well to the 400 yd limit in range I assign it to.
OK for you guys that feel that bullet speed because of flattened trajectory is more important than wind drift here is a comparison trajectory between the 6mm/55gn at 4100 fps MV and the 87gnhpbt at 3777 (the velocity my 6mm/06 gets with this bullet)
55gn nos @ 4100 fps MV
100yd=3722 200yd=3376 300yd=3058 400yd=2764 500yd=2488 600yd=2230 700yd=1987 800yd=1761
87gn @ 3777 fps MV
100yd=3517 200yd=3273 300yd=3043 400yd=2825 500yd=2619 600yd=2422 700yd=2233 800yd=2053
Wow !!! Look at that, can ya believe it!!! By the time they get to 300 yards they are virtually equal in velocity.
Another point I might make is that at 400 yards with the 55gn bullet the energy has fallen to the point that is about equal to that of a 22 hornet MV with the same bullet weight. The energy figures at 400 yards for each bullet weight are 933 for the 55gn and 1542 for the 87gn.
The 243 Win and 6mm Rem are darn fine cartridges with outstanding performance levels and no one using them for coyotes is under gunned in the least. However since as I said I move to stack the deck in my favor I regularly use chamberings that will give a bit of improved performance over the factory offerings. The velocity figure I gave for the 87gn bullet is what my 6mm/06 delivers with its working load. I also use a 6mm/284, a 243 Win Ackley, and a 6mm Rem Ackley. My 6/284 runs about 100 fps behind my 6mm/06 and both my Ackley chamberings about 50 fps behind the 6mm/284.
I am just putting this out to show that the velocity range I gave for the 87gn bullet is not unrealistic. At the same time for comparison sake I deliberately gave a higher velocity figure for the 55gn bullet than anyone else claiming to be using this bullet gave just so I couldn't be accused of sandbagging on the side of the lighter bullet. So there they are the facts speak for themselves.
So if I am not the only one that has less than top notch shooting ability and if I am not the only one that cant judge wind for squat maybe I am not the only one that pays close attention to these type of figures so as to be able to stack the deck to my greatest advantage.
As to making an argument for hide damage, hey I am a fur hunter and do this for the money. I don't want to down grade my furs by blowing them apart. The truth is that for the purpose I advocate the higher BC numbers over the 55gn 6mm bullet for 400+ yard shooting at the ranges I use them for the damage to hides is insignificant. Here is an example, early this week I shot a young male coyote using a 25/284 chambering. The load was pushing a 75gn Hornady hp right at 3700 fps. The range must have been very close to being right at 400 yards since with a 100 yard zero the 400 yard hold is 1.2 mil and that is exactly where the bullet went. The exit hole was about the size of a quarter and I found no hair or hide on the snow where the coyote stood when hit. It took three stiches to close the hole when the hide was put on a stretcher fur side in, then after a few hours turned fur side out the stitched hole is not detectable.
So I guess I made my point and since the current participants in this discussion seemed to have dropped out I will leave it to anyone that may look to this for help in the future in trying to help decide the best bullet choice for their application. Thanks, it was fun!!!
55gn nos @ 4100 fps MV
100yd=3722 200yd=3376 300yd=3058 400yd=2764 500yd=2488 600yd=2230 700yd=1987 800yd=1761
87gn @ 3777 fps MV
100yd=3517 200yd=3273 300yd=3043 400yd=2825 500yd=2619 600yd=2422 700yd=2233 800yd=2053
Wow !!! Look at that, can ya believe it!!! By the time they get to 300 yards they are virtually equal in velocity.
Another point I might make is that at 400 yards with the 55gn bullet the energy has fallen to the point that is about equal to that of a 22 hornet MV with the same bullet weight. The energy figures at 400 yards for each bullet weight are 933 for the 55gn and 1542 for the 87gn.
The 243 Win and 6mm Rem are darn fine cartridges with outstanding performance levels and no one using them for coyotes is under gunned in the least. However since as I said I move to stack the deck in my favor I regularly use chamberings that will give a bit of improved performance over the factory offerings. The velocity figure I gave for the 87gn bullet is what my 6mm/06 delivers with its working load. I also use a 6mm/284, a 243 Win Ackley, and a 6mm Rem Ackley. My 6/284 runs about 100 fps behind my 6mm/06 and both my Ackley chamberings about 50 fps behind the 6mm/284.
I am just putting this out to show that the velocity range I gave for the 87gn bullet is not unrealistic. At the same time for comparison sake I deliberately gave a higher velocity figure for the 55gn bullet than anyone else claiming to be using this bullet gave just so I couldn't be accused of sandbagging on the side of the lighter bullet. So there they are the facts speak for themselves.
So if I am not the only one that has less than top notch shooting ability and if I am not the only one that cant judge wind for squat maybe I am not the only one that pays close attention to these type of figures so as to be able to stack the deck to my greatest advantage.
As to making an argument for hide damage, hey I am a fur hunter and do this for the money. I don't want to down grade my furs by blowing them apart. The truth is that for the purpose I advocate the higher BC numbers over the 55gn 6mm bullet for 400+ yard shooting at the ranges I use them for the damage to hides is insignificant. Here is an example, early this week I shot a young male coyote using a 25/284 chambering. The load was pushing a 75gn Hornady hp right at 3700 fps. The range must have been very close to being right at 400 yards since with a 100 yard zero the 400 yard hold is 1.2 mil and that is exactly where the bullet went. The exit hole was about the size of a quarter and I found no hair or hide on the snow where the coyote stood when hit. It took three stiches to close the hole when the hide was put on a stretcher fur side in, then after a few hours turned fur side out the stitched hole is not detectable.
So I guess I made my point and since the current participants in this discussion seemed to have dropped out I will leave it to anyone that may look to this for help in the future in trying to help decide the best bullet choice for their application. Thanks, it was fun!!!
The bottom line is, indeed, go with whatever you think works best for your particular application and circumstances.
Originally Posted By: bullshopOK for you guys that feel that bullet speed because of flattened trajectory is more important than wind drift...
For my application and circumstances, yes, flat mid range is more important. And the 55 NBT is superior to the 87 Vmax. For my application and circumstances.
Originally Posted By: bullshop...I deliberately gave a higher velocity figure for the 55gn bullet than anyone else claiming to be using this bullet gave...
No you didn't. I'm running them almost 200 fps faster than the figure you used. And I posted it very early in this thread.
It doesn't matter though. For your application, it sounds like the 87 Vmax while better than the 55, isn't the answer either, you need even heavier, higher BC bullets for long range work.
That's not my application, though, at all.
What I am most concerned with is extending my point blank range and not having to concern myself with precise range estimation when working in the neighborhood of 400 yard shots. The 87 Vmax at 3750, gives up over 20 yards of MPBR to the 55 NBT load I'm using. The more telling number though, is in 400 yard POI. With both bullets zeroed for MPBR, ~290/333 for the 55, ~270/311 for the 87, the 87 is hitting about 3" lower at 400 yards. About 5.5" low vs. 8.5" low. May not sound like much, but in the heat of getting off a quick shot on a coyote stand, without the use of a rangefinder, in my experience in actual practical field use, that is actually a very significant difference. With a large advantage going to the flatter mid range trajectory of the higher velocity 55 gr. load.
I consider the vitals on a coyote to be only a 4" target. The difference between the two at 400 yards is almost the size of the target. Forgetting the numbers for a moment, my field experience (which is considerable) validates that this is, indeed, a significant difference.
Simply put, for my purposes, the 55 is a hold on fur load to 400. The 87 isn't.
Energy... A complete non-issue. I've anchored enough coyotes out to the mid 500's with my 55 NBT load to know that it has plenty of mustard to the ranges I'm comfortable using it. Plenty.
Wind... Almost a complete non-issue - for me. The mid 500's is as far as I go on a stand, and even then, conditions have to be pretty good all around for me to take a shot that long. I have to feel good about my hold, good about the wind, good about everything, or I just pass on a shot like that.
But, going by the numbers, at 500 yards, my load with the 55's gives up only 2" to the 87 Vmax in a full value 10 MPH crosswind. Again, based on my own experience in the field, this is not significant. Unlike the 400 POI comparison, where 3" is a big difference, the 500 yard wind comparison is about 18" of wind for the 55 vs. 16" of wind for the 87. Not significant in anyone's book, but more to the point - I'm not taking 500 yard shots in a full value 10 MPH wind on a coyote stand anyway, so the actual difference will be even less than 2". No advantage to the 87 here, for my application.
There is one more factor involved in choosing between these two particular bullets that has not been mentioned, but which I gave deliberate consideration to in making my choices. Recoil. Too many factors involved in the effects of recoil, some of which are subjective, so I won't bother going into them in any detail. But, for me, being able to see the shot through the scope has real utility on a coyote stand. Primarily in handling multiples - seeing the result of my shot in the scope equals more dead coyotes at the end of the year. As my 6/284 is configured (which is designed around on-stand handling characteristics), I see all my shots through the scope with the 55's but do not see most of them with the 87's. It's another point in favor of the 55's, for my application.
So, anyway... Back to the bottom line. Whatever works best for an individuals application and circumstances, and it's none of my business what anyone chooses or why. But, do realize, there are indeed applications and circumstances under which the 55 gr. is superior - and my application and circumstances are one real world example.
- DAA
Originally Posted By: bullshopOK for you guys that feel that bullet speed because of flattened trajectory is more important than wind drift...
For my application and circumstances, yes, flat mid range is more important. And the 55 NBT is superior to the 87 Vmax. For my application and circumstances.
Originally Posted By: bullshop...I deliberately gave a higher velocity figure for the 55gn bullet than anyone else claiming to be using this bullet gave...
No you didn't. I'm running them almost 200 fps faster than the figure you used. And I posted it very early in this thread.
It doesn't matter though. For your application, it sounds like the 87 Vmax while better than the 55, isn't the answer either, you need even heavier, higher BC bullets for long range work.
That's not my application, though, at all.
What I am most concerned with is extending my point blank range and not having to concern myself with precise range estimation when working in the neighborhood of 400 yard shots. The 87 Vmax at 3750, gives up over 20 yards of MPBR to the 55 NBT load I'm using. The more telling number though, is in 400 yard POI. With both bullets zeroed for MPBR, ~290/333 for the 55, ~270/311 for the 87, the 87 is hitting about 3" lower at 400 yards. About 5.5" low vs. 8.5" low. May not sound like much, but in the heat of getting off a quick shot on a coyote stand, without the use of a rangefinder, in my experience in actual practical field use, that is actually a very significant difference. With a large advantage going to the flatter mid range trajectory of the higher velocity 55 gr. load.
I consider the vitals on a coyote to be only a 4" target. The difference between the two at 400 yards is almost the size of the target. Forgetting the numbers for a moment, my field experience (which is considerable) validates that this is, indeed, a significant difference.
Simply put, for my purposes, the 55 is a hold on fur load to 400. The 87 isn't.
Energy... A complete non-issue. I've anchored enough coyotes out to the mid 500's with my 55 NBT load to know that it has plenty of mustard to the ranges I'm comfortable using it. Plenty.
Wind... Almost a complete non-issue - for me. The mid 500's is as far as I go on a stand, and even then, conditions have to be pretty good all around for me to take a shot that long. I have to feel good about my hold, good about the wind, good about everything, or I just pass on a shot like that.
But, going by the numbers, at 500 yards, my load with the 55's gives up only 2" to the 87 Vmax in a full value 10 MPH crosswind. Again, based on my own experience in the field, this is not significant. Unlike the 400 POI comparison, where 3" is a big difference, the 500 yard wind comparison is about 18" of wind for the 55 vs. 16" of wind for the 87. Not significant in anyone's book, but more to the point - I'm not taking 500 yard shots in a full value 10 MPH wind on a coyote stand anyway, so the actual difference will be even less than 2". No advantage to the 87 here, for my application.
There is one more factor involved in choosing between these two particular bullets that has not been mentioned, but which I gave deliberate consideration to in making my choices. Recoil. Too many factors involved in the effects of recoil, some of which are subjective, so I won't bother going into them in any detail. But, for me, being able to see the shot through the scope has real utility on a coyote stand. Primarily in handling multiples - seeing the result of my shot in the scope equals more dead coyotes at the end of the year. As my 6/284 is configured (which is designed around on-stand handling characteristics), I see all my shots through the scope with the 55's but do not see most of them with the 87's. It's another point in favor of the 55's, for my application.
So, anyway... Back to the bottom line. Whatever works best for an individuals application and circumstances, and it's none of my business what anyone chooses or why. But, do realize, there are indeed applications and circumstances under which the 55 gr. is superior - and my application and circumstances are one real world example.
- DAA