You hit the nail on the head Q! and your example about the pheasants is what we fur hunters are talking about. Question? How many coyotes did those boys kill on their Wendover hunt? just what i figured, 0 . maybe one of them could write a poem about that!

From Q:

quote:
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“Making moral decisions about hunting is not up to us. Our morals are our Laws silly. if it is legal then it is moral and if it is illegal then it is immoral. The government decides for us what is moral or not. That burden should never fall on out shoulders?”

I think you may be a bit mistaken in "the truest thing you have ever said." The burden to decide what is moral is on our shoulders. It is the common citizen that writes his congressmen to change the law. It is our burden to recognize the unethicalness and try to do something about it. In the end it is the government that decides what is moral or not, but it is up to us to pave the road that leads them to that decision.

The law sets the parameters of what you can and cannot get away with, with no fear of legal repurcussion.

Ethics comes down to doing what's right, even when it may be legal to do otherwise.

The law is not morality, and morality is not necessarily the law.

Once, slavery was legal, practised and accepted by citizens at the time. That did not make it moral or ethical, just legal.

An example more relevant to hunting ethics: At one time 100 years or more ago in America it was a legal, accepted practise to use lanterns and canoes or boats to go out and jack deer at night. Considered great sport. Now it isn't tolerated anywhere that I know of.

Somehow, with a lot of us, using a motorized vehicle to chase down game violates every concept of fair chase ethics we've practised our entire lives, even if there may be certain exceptions that cause it to be legally allowed in some places. Snowmobile, ATV, truck, etc.

Vehicles are often used for predator control. I think they're pretty rarely used by recreational hunters. PM isn't a board dealing with professional predator control methods.

Q- So what's you point? That we at PM aren't always 100% consistant, running this site in accordance with your view of utopian perfection? If so, I for one will plead "guilty as charged". Being human, we're doing the best we can with what we have. There will likely be bumps in the ride, so hang on and enjoy it as much as you can

MI VHNTR, I am not looking to start a war of words and if you knew half as much as you thought you did you would know I wasn’t apologizing. It is called sarcasm VHNTR.

“Another thing, your "courtesy and image" bit, is laughable at best.” What the hell does that mean? You might not care “obviously” what others might think but as long as you people spew your trash talk about coyotes and what coyote hunting is all about I will pass on a few of my own ideas and if you don’t like it. BOOO HOOO Get use to it. When you start showing the coyotes that you hunt and those whom disagree with YOU a little respect then you shouldn’t expect any in return.

In 78 and 79 when coyote prices went through the roof we had a lot of people chasing them down with sleds and pickups. It was hard to get access in those days around here because that is what people thought coyote hunting was all about and they didn’t want people tearing around their pastures. Back east there are “group” hunters that circle sections and run down and shoot coyotes from county roads. Many because of their methods and activities hate them. I for one do not want a bad reputation because of what some might think coyote hunting is all about.

I am not TELLING anyone to do anything. I am just suggesting an idea that might stop a lot of unneeded controversy and hard feelings. The way I look at it is we can be amoral and let everything slide which would be the easiest or we could steer PM in a new direction that would uphold our common interests.

Deer and elk foundations respect there chosen quarry and promote fair chase. Do they respect and promote fair chase because they have no choice because the law requires them to? I don’t think so. I think that they do it because in their heart they think it is the right thing to do.

Deer and elk NEED to be controlled too. If controlling the numbers were the only objective there would be no such thing as fair chase, ethical means or salvage laws. The state would just set a quota and when it is reached they would shut an area down or they would work them over with a plain or chopper.

In Nebraska coons are listed as a fur-bearing animal. We probably have more coons than any other state except for Iowa. Wyoming has a small fraction of the coons that NE does yet they are listed as a predator and can be killed at any time of the year. There are still a lot of coons in Wyoming no matter what the season says. We could easily get by with out a season in Nebraska but we have one anyway and that is basically for ethical reasons. The season is set around the prime fur season. Any season that has a “closed” season is set around the birthing time of year. Coyotes in every state have no chance of being shot out yet some states and Canadian provinces choose to set seasons around the birthing time of year because of ethics. They know very well that they don’t need to do that to save the coyote. They are doing it to prevent pups from starving and may even do it to promote the use of its fur? Seasons will make no difference in coyote populations unless there is a closed season.

There is no debate to be had on this matter because as long as something is legal people will do it. Stu made my point. He said.

[QUOTE] Once, slavery was legal, practised and accepted by citizens at the time. That did not make it moral or ethical, just legal.

An example more relevant to hunting ethics: At one time 100 years or more ago in America it was a legal, accepted practise to use lanterns and canoes or boats to go out and jack deer at night. Considered great sport. Now it isn't tolerated anywhere that I know of.[/QUOTE]At that time of year it was believed slavery to be moral so they did it. They got a little ticked off when someone told them that it was immoral and they should stop. So much in fact that it split the country in half and war broke out.

When the market hunting was big it was considered moral and when game laws were set to curb the activity a lot of wardens came up missing.

Now at this day and age we look at both as very immoral don’t we? I think 100 years from now hunting coyotes with sleds and during the puping season will be considered immoral as well. Until the time it is illegal to do that who is to say that it is immoral or unethical? Big Brother hasn’t spoken on it yet and I promise you if it makes it to the ballot box it will loose. Convincing millions of soccer moms that it is necessary to kill mother coyotes with puppies and to run them down with snow machines is an expectable way of GENERAL population control will be a tuff boat to float.

You and I know it doesn’t work for overall population control. Unless there is a need for intensive gunning and trapping in isolated areas there is no viable argument to sugest that hunting during pupping time will have an effect on the population. It is an unnecessary practice and there are alternate means.

Coyote calling is becoming hugely popular and I would venture to say that we have more callers in the field now than at any other time in history. We can control populations by hunting to a degree but there will always be a need for ADC people to deal with problems in the off season in areas.

Whenever someone’s interests are at stake things go to hell in a hand basket. This is no exception. My interest is protecting and preserving the sport of predator calling so that my grand children’s grand children can enjoy it as much as I do. I see what you are saying as a threat to my pursuit of happiness and you see me as a threat to yours. I respect your views and as long as it is lawful you can do anything you want and we are at an impasse. I think that you respect my view that I see coyotes as a viable resource. Why is it that we can’t meet in the middle?

If coyotes had horns we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Good hunting.

Q,

I personally would rather shoot a coyote then many of the so called "game animals" I would rather shoot a coyote then a 140 class WT i would rather shoot a coyote then pheasants, ducks ,geese and so on. If you can't give the animal that your hunting the same rights as the other animals then put your gun away join the rest of the guys that always dream of the hunt of a lifetime and never get it done. Just because you don't have a tag to put on a coyote dosen't mean that it shouldn't get the respect of the "Antlered animals"

Q-Wagoner says "MI VHNTR, I am not looking to start a war of words and if you knew half as much as you thought you did you would know I wasn’t apologizing. It is called sarcasm VHNTR."

Q-Wagoner, since you obviously cannot read and/or comprehend the English language with your second grade education, I'll repeat it again for you, slowly this time too. This is from my previous post, BTW. "I DO NOT accept any "apology" for your pseudo-intellectual and sarcastic comments."
In other words, smart guy, your feeble attempt at sarcasm was noted and duly dismissed as a rudimentary attempt to be sarcastic, nothing more. Furthermore, it shows just how limited your "education" really is.
I have no more, and no less, respect for the coyote then I do for any other animal that I hunt. I do not put them in any special category, since they are a predator, nothing more. Also, I will never show any respect to someone of your ilk, since you have not earned it. This includes you and your false idol too. I find it completely hilarious that you are worried what other people think about coyote hunting because of what is said on a predator hunting board, yet YOU choose to kill these predators for money. A bit hypocritical to say the least. If you cannot comprehend this, email me and I'll put it into terms that even you can understand. MI VHNTR

P.S. I do not intend to continue to respond to your aimless rantings here. I've got too much respect for the fine, decent people on this board to do it.

Quint,
There you go again with that "back east" stuff. I thought we had gotten that all straightened out. Invite me out for a hunt sometime and you will see that not all eastern boys are the same.
Doug

Guys,
I don't get over here as much as I should. I'm sorry that I allowed things to get out of hand like this. I try not to force my own idea of ethics onto others, but everyone who knows me will not be surprised to hear that I do not tolerate personal attacks upon members. It is time to close this thread. I am asking everyone to please cool it and get back to talking about predator hunting or other cool things in the great white north. Thank you.