San Carlos negotiations are not dead. I just received a return call from the wildlife biologist there, which I was referred to. He says that they do have a coyote and mountain lion problem, and would like to have us to hunt there to lower those populations.

I explained that in order to get the majority of our hunters to hunt the San Carlos, they would need incentives to entice them to hunt there, rather than on BLM and Ariz State lands. I suggested the following as incentives to attract our members:

1.) Predator and lion hunting fees be waived for our members for a 2-day hunt, Jan. 16 & 17, 2004.

2.) Our members be allowed to use electronic calls on that hunt.

3.) Allow half of our attending hunters, each day, to hunt 26D, the non-hunting area where my previous information indicated very high lion populations. That way, half of our group would hunt each day in the regular hunting areas, and half in the 26D area. That lets each of us hunt one day in 26D (where non-tribal member hunting is not allowed), and still we will hunt the regular hunting areas on the alternate day, helping rid San Carlos of predators there as well as in 26D. It also spreads our hunters out so they won't be stumbling over each other so much.

4.) Any other incentives that San Carlos cares to put forth for our consideration.

Item 1 will have to be taken to the Director for approval.

Item 2 is mute, as electronic calls are now allowed in the San Carlos. This is a change from last year, in an attempt to get rid of some of the troublesome coyotes and lions.

Item 3, if approved by the Director, will have to be taken to the tribal council for approval. That will be near the end of November.

I asked for a lot, and hope to get at least some of it. We probably won't get it all, but it sure would be nice if we do!!!!

Guys, this may well be the predator-hunting opportunity of a lifetime. MAKE YOUR PLANS TO BE THERE!!!!!!

Un-Freakin'-believeable!! This is what I've dreamed about for 3 years. Virgin territory for lions and coyotes. Everybody PRAY that the tribal council agrees.
Wiley E., are ya' listening?

Critr Gitr, You the Man!!!
Thanks for all the hard work you have all ready put in. See ya in Globe.
buzzsaw

Man, this is looking better all the time. Might have to pony up for the hotel room after all. Sure would like to make this deal. Got a lot going on in the Dec/Jan/Feb time frame though...

Robert, How soon did they say when they would get back to ya?

I call dibbs on 26D. first day! LOL

Well at least they will talk to us. Better than the folks in NM.

If I killed a lion I can't even bring it back home. That sucks.........

That's good news Critr. It's nice to see some easy headway with those folks.

Dogboy, lions are cool in CO. If you get one you can hang it on my wall and come visit it any time you want.

I bet you wouldn't mind that NASA, LMAO!!

Hey alright! hope we can get some big cats...

Maybe a week or so on the waiver of fees. Then probably end of the month on the 26D, as it has to go to the tribal council. Of course, if the director vetoes it, we will know that soon, and it won't even go to the council.....

But I figure anything we can get is gravy!

Mom'a just gave me the a'ok, I can't wait.

I'm just a little worried about some things though. My buddy and I just started predator hunting this year. I've done a fair amount of Deer/rabbit hunting, this is the first year he's ever gone.

How's the hunt work? Do we all just go our seperate ways in the morning, and just meet up at night?

Might we get the chance to go out with some vet's and learn a thing or 20?

Like I said we are just about as green as it gets. Bout the closest we ever get to killin a yote, is watching them run across the runway at work....

Hey Critter, Since were asking for the moon, Why not throw in NIGHT HUNTING too! :eek:

Jason will soon be taking hunter apps, sending out email questionaires, and matching up hunters to best possible mix. This includes putting experienced callers ("guides") with inexperienced hunters.

Hey Crapshoot, I wanted concessions, not for them to send the funny wagon......

This sounds like a great deal!! I hope it happens. Count me in.

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!

_______________________________________________________________

According to the San Carlos Game and Fish Department it is NOT legal to hunt lions with an electronic call. It is legal to hunt predators with electronics but lions are not classed as predators they fall under the classification as a big game animal. The Council of Elders (or whatever they call themselves) is taking on the question of legalizing electronics for lions but has not come to a decision on the issue yet.

For a minute there, I thought I was in the middle of another Lost in Space re-run.

Paul

You can use Electronic calls on the res.
Calling or attempting to call or attract wildlife with electronic calls is prohibited, "except" for when hunting "predators" and "mountain lions" and except for law enforcement or wildlife management personnel while conducting their official duties.

There certainly seems to be confusion as to what is legal for lions and other proposed corrections and revisions to the San Carlos Wildlife and Recreation Commission Regulations. Recently I was at the R&W Department Office and got copies of their Regulations and a Public Notice Document that had 11 proposed corrections and revisions to the San Carlos Wildlife and Recreation Commission Regulations dated April 7, 2003. Number 7: Electronic calling to include mountain lion is the one of concern to us. This proposal is as stated by azcowboy76. However the wildlife manage we spoke with stated electronics were not yet legal for lions, it is under consideration at this time. I checked a few of the proposed changes and none of them are in the 20 type written pages of the new regulations (lions are not included). Either none of the changes were approved or new regulations haven’t been printed. The old regulations I have gotten from the San Carlos have been newspaper type document with advertisers in it. In the Public Notice Document they state that inquires about he proposed changes can be made by calling the San Carlos Recreation & Wildlife Department at (928) 475-2324 or 1-888-475-2344.

This really doesn’t clear anything up, just a few more “facts”?

Bill

Robert, Can you get a clarification on the use of electronic calls for us?

they have the same thing i wrote on there web site in there rules and regs.
G. Calling or attempting to call or attract wildlife with electronic calls is prohibited, except for when hunting predators and mountain lions and except for law enforcement or wildlife management personnel while conducting their official duties.
here is the link, look at section "G"
http://www.sancarlosrecreationandwildlife.com/reg002.htm

azcowboy76, I read that site, pretty clear to me you can use electronic callers when hunting predators.

No doubt though we need current updated regs.

Ecallers would be better for the lions I think.

Is there a taxidermist in Globe??????? Would love to bag one of those foxes and have him mounted.

I stood face to face and talked to a game manager and he stated quite clearly that if you are caught taking a lion with an electronic call you would be ticketed, simple as that. AND he wasn't against the use of electronic calls for predators, but the rules as he and the rest of the San Carlos Recreation & Wildlife Department understand them does not include Mountain Lions. There is deffinately some confusion on this issue and I wish all the folks at the San Carlos Recreation & Wildlife Department would get their stories straight on this one. One thing is for sure though, if the enforcement people on the San Carlos believe that it is not legal to call lions with an E-caller then stear clear, even if they prove to be wrong they can still make life mighty hard for you.

Good point Michael. Someone needs to show them their own website and let them update it.

I'm happy with handcalls myself, doesn't matter to me either way.

Michael are you and Bill going to be there this year?????????

I can't speak for Bill. But for me at this time I don't know, its sorta up to Redfrog right now .

My understanding is that the Tribal Council is meeting near the end of this month. I will wait until after that to get info, as rules could change at the meeting.

Thanks azcoyboy76 for the web page. After looking at it further on the "What's New" page it states that in May the web site was updated with the approved changes of April. Electronics for lions is there, however they haven't cleaned everything up in that on their "Hunting" page using electronics for coyotes is mention but no mention of electronics for lions. Also the hard copies at the office as of last week didn't have the changes and their wildlife managers apparently haven't been brought up to speed of those changes. More than likely electronics are legal for lions but if the wildllife managers don't know, there still is trouble.

Bill

Well i hope that we will beable to use the electronics, callin lions with hand calls can burn you out. well good luck to you all and i hope to see you guys in jan.

Critr, I agree but if you could get something in writing that would be even better. Since you are talking to them about the 26D area anyway it sounds like you have soild footing there. If they are considering bending their rules for us, they just might do this as well for us. I'm crossing my fingers.

CRITR first off thank you and everyone else who are putting all their time and effort into making this hunt happen.I was just wondering if you've been able to talk with any council members or indian game and fish authorities about the waiving of some fees for members of the hunt,every indian rancher I've stopped to talk to tell me the lions are killing lots of their cattle and they would welcome all the hunters to come and tag some lions off the reservation.Any concessions on their part would be better than none.take care daveyboy

sorry didnt use right login but my uncle merv thanks you also :rolleyes:

any more info about concessions from the san carlos?anyone, daveyboy

Guys, Critr's computer is on the frits at the moment, we are out of touch with him also, I'm sure he'll be back soon.

critr,I know you have a lot of pans in the fire but I was wondering if you were able to talk anymore with the san carlos about the upcoming hunt I know the regular tribal members,the ranchers especially are begging for us predator hunters to come in and help them out so I would think their tribal council would be pretty receptive to a few concessions on their part,but then again yes I know your dealing with a sovereign nation unto itself sooo.....thanks critr for all your input and help and that goes out to all you moderaters and everyone else who so freely gives of their time to help this board keep going,its greatly appreciated believe me. take care daveyboy

Robert, Is there anything new here. Did the electronic call issue on cats ever get resolved?

I have been talking to the director. He claims to be making an effort to get the electronic call reg changed, or at least get a variance for us, as well as the other requests. But I keep getting put off. The tribal council is now supposed to meet "in early January", and he will take it up then.

At least he is talking, we will see ................

So, are e- callers allowed at all for any kind of predators? coyote, fox, bobcat?

crapshoot according to their own website that was posted earlier by jason elpaso,Yes they are for predators,I think for lion from what I can make of it they still can't make up their minds about that,hopefully it'll be cleared up by the 16th.daveyboy

Are we getting any of the "special" treatment that we were getting last year?

I have made requests to open up R100. It sounded as though it was almost a go until the last council hearing shot it down. The 26D unit is going to be sometime before its opened.

Everything to my knowledge that Critr negotiated last year with the e-callers on lions is still in affect.

Oh and there is hunter orange that we got them to pass.

So what is a go and what is a no go? Do we have to wear orange, can we use E-caller for lions, are the fee's waived, what's left to decide, and are we getting into a high yield area. Just need a clarification. my brother is possibly flying in, if he can get the time off from the Navy. I would like to get him more info, oh ya he will be a member soon, his internet will be up by Friday.

Elkoholic there is so much info that you'll have to be more specific about what you mean by whats a go and a no go.

Fee's have not been waived to hunt on the San Carlos. Im sorry

Look here for info pertaining to hunter orange. http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000426

E-calls can be used for all mtn lions, fox, bobcat, and coyote.

Please also note that this thread was created before last years hunt.

Sorry I was asking about the topic of discussion, the stuff you had mentioned in the original post. By your last post I figured we did not have to wear orange so that's why I asked. Will the broken orange be allowed, IE camo orange?

Sorry to put all this on you, I am just trying to prepare for the trip. I figured one person asking rather than many phone calls to them may make things a little clearer, rather than all the opinions and translations from everybody getting info.

OOPs ok I see LOL I guess I am still learning this Board stuff

Sorry for dredging up old posts....I myself was curious if some of the things could be applied to this years hunt.

Specifically, are we getting any fee's waived? It is quite reasonable to hunt on the reservation, but anything reduced, waived, or free is always a bonus. I was also curious if any of the areas had been opened up, however I believe that this has already been addressed.

Tommy, on a quick side note, I appreciate what you have done for this year's hunt. I know it is a big task, and I am on the outside looking in. I hope that you can get some time for yourself, prior to all of the last minute things, but I know that those are quickly approaching. I wish you the best, and first round is on me when I see you.

We have gotten a reprieve to use camo pattern hunter orange for this hunt.