Beat a dead Horse What Method on Load Development

rickyb

New member
Yes I know I can go back and look for these topics but I want to ask. What method do you use working up a load..

**When working up a load do you guys drop down from max and shoot the three shot groups goings up in powder per .05gr.
**Shoot a ladder test
**OR use the optimal charge weight load development.

I don't really have the place to shoot three hundred yds so I use the first method.

I will usually load up around 21 to 24 rounds and shoot them. After I get home I clean the bore and look at results. What works for you?
 
Originally Posted By: rickybYes I know I can go back and look for these topics but I want to ask. What method do you use working up a load..

**When working up a load do you guys drop down from max and shoot the three shot groups goings up in powder per .05gr.
**Shoot a ladder test
**OR use the optimal charge weight load development.

I don't really have the place to shoot three hundred yds so I use the first method.

I will usually load up around 21 to 24 rounds and shoot them. After I get home I clean the bore and look at results. What works for you?

Ladder and OCW are bogus myths... you cannot get repeatable results, so the results are worthless.

"do you guys drop down from max and shoot the three shot groups goings up in powder per .05gr."

I'm not sure what you mean by "drop down from max", and then, "Going up in powder per 0.05gr"

You are nutz to work down from max... start low and work up.

For smaller cartridges, I start about 2 grains under max (checked from several source), and work up in 1/2 grain increments (NOT 1/20th of a grain)., and continue until I have loads one or two grains over max.

I load 5 of each load - if a group is bad in the first 2 or 3 rounds, I stop, and move to the next row.

I continue until I see signs of pressure, and I am finished. I analyse targets at home.

With fire breathers like the 264 Win Mag, I load 2 rounds of each load, and shoot them. Then I take the best and load 5 and pick the best.


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Cat I meant I dropped down from Max about 10% and load up to max. My ignorance on the .05 I should have typed .5 increaments and load up .5

It's good to know those others are myth's. Like I posted I can't shoot past 100 yds where I work up loads.

Cat what about your cleaning regimen when working up loads. Rick
 
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In regards to testing loads on a new gun-

I research what powders are commonly used with the bullet weight I want to try. I load 20 shells with 5 different combinations.

I test 5 different combinations, all loaded at listed starting points. If you shoot 4 shot groups of each, you can load 20 rounds and find out pretty quick what your rifle likes.

After that, I start at the "bottom" and work my way up in half grn incrments, at all times checking for signs of excessive pressure. All guns are different. I have a 6mm remington that is VERY accurate when it is 2 grains under the max. I have loaded it up, loaded it down, and adjusted the seating depth. That particular rifle likes to be 2 grns under max, and I accepted that. Accuracy is more important than speed.
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: rickybYes I know I can go back and look for these topics but I want to ask. What method do you use working up a load..

**When working up a load do you guys drop down from max and shoot the three shot groups goings up in powder per .05gr.
**Shoot a ladder test
**OR use the optimal charge weight load development.

I don't really have the place to shoot three hundred yds so I use the first method.

I will usually load up around 21 to 24 rounds and shoot them. After I get home I clean the bore and look at results. What works for you?

Ladder and OCW are bogus myths... you cannot get repeatable results, so the results are worthless.

"do you guys drop down from max and shoot the three shot groups goings up in powder per .05gr."

I'm not sure what you mean by "drop down from max", and then, "Going up in powder per 0.05gr"

You are nutz to work down from max... start low and work up.

For smaller cartridges, I start about 2 grains under max (checked from several source), and work up in 1/2 grain increments (NOT 1/20th of a grain)., and continue until I have loads one or two grains over max.

I load 5 of each load - if a group is bad in the first 2 or 3 rounds, I stop, and move to the next row.

I continue until I see signs of pressure, and I am finished. I analyse targets at home.

With fire breathers like the 264 Win Mag, I load 2 rounds of each load, and shoot them. Then I take the best and load 5 and pick the best.


.

Cat, I must have been taught by the same guy you were taught by.

+1

I load for a lot of wild cats and use non canister surplus powder often. So, years ago I learned to find my max safe working load. I load one round at a time, increasing powder charge 0.5g at a time, to find what I consider a safe working max load for my rifle. Since my rifle and components can not read a reloading manual, no telling where that max load may be found, note also that temp the day the loads are shot and info is only good for that rifle.

Once I find the safe working max load, then the accuracy load will usually be found within 2.0g of that safe working max load.

I will shoot three shots at a time working up to that safe Max load, tweek the powder charge, play with the primer choice, and play with seating depth. I load at the rifle range and the changing of components may sound like a long drawn out affair but accuracy is usually achieve within 30 shots on the long side.

In custom guns with super barrels, you can work on two shot groups, you are looking for bullets to go in the same bullet hole. I was taught the above method in 1968 by an old time benchrest shooter that had lots of wild cats for that era.

Cat's method is a hands down winner for a guy that does not load at the rifle range, make no mistake about it.

I have spend so much time working over wind flags shooting Benchrest Competion, that I had rather eat a rat than shoot a ladder test. I expect much better accuracy than the OCW test would ever produce.

Hope this helps
 
Originally Posted By: rickyb

"Cat what about your cleaning regimen when working up loads. Rick"



You're supposed to CLEAN THEM????

tt2.gif
 
Pretty much what Catshooter and Ackleyman do. Pick the bullet, most common powders for that weight and cartridge available in my area, use the same primers I do for everything else, and reference as many load resource manuals as possible. I like to pick the middle of the charge scale and work up to pressure signs shooting 3 shot groups. The bigger the case the bigger the hop between loads. 308 based cases in .5's and small varmint cases like 17rem in .2's. Follow up the good ones on another session with 5 shot groups to make sure they are the real deal. Sometimes if something doesn't stand out, I'll go with in between charges or longer seating if possible to tighten them up. I'm not interested in the bottom end of the cartridges potential usually. If I want that performance, I switch to another cartridge designed for that performance. I usually hit a nice combo within 30 rounds. For some reason I feel the need to waste more components though and constantly second guess myself and keep trying combinations only to return to one of my first few loads
laugh.gif
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As for cleaning, I pick up some factory ammo or load a 5 shot batch of "middle of the scale" loads and sight in with them. This fouls the barrel as most of my guns will stay fouled more than they will stay clean. I'm not a paper "X" hunter, I'm after fur so I want my testing to be valid on shot 1 or shot 50 in the field. All my test loads will now be on paper and relatively close to the bullseye and all will be in a dirty, warm barrel. Later when the loading is finalized, I like to confirm my zeros on a cold dirty barrel.

Right or wrong, that has been working for me so far. I almost never have to think about trying a second powder. If I do, it is usually because it is either dirty or not readily available in my area anymore.
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooter
Ladder and OCW are bogus myths... you cannot get repeatable results, so the results are worthless.
.

I'm glad to finally hear someone else say what I've been thinking all along. I have tried both of these methods and always ended up frustrated and going back to my old way of working up a load.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymanOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: rickybYes I know I can go back and look for these topics but I want to ask. What method do you use working up a load..

**When working up a load do you guys drop down from max and shoot the three shot groups goings up in powder per .05gr.
**Shoot a ladder test
**OR use the optimal charge weight load development.

I don't really have the place to shoot three hundred yds so I use the first method.

I will usually load up around 21 to 24 rounds and shoot them. After I get home I clean the bore and look at results. What works for you?

Ladder and OCW are bogus myths... you cannot get repeatable results, so the results are worthless.

"do you guys drop down from max and shoot the three shot groups goings up in powder per .05gr."

I'm not sure what you mean by "drop down from max", and then, "Going up in powder per 0.05gr"

You are nutz to work down from max... start low and work up.

For smaller cartridges, I start about 2 grains under max (checked from several source), and work up in 1/2 grain increments (NOT 1/20th of a grain)., and continue until I have loads one or two grains over max.

I load 5 of each load - if a group is bad in the first 2 or 3 rounds, I stop, and move to the next row.

I continue until I see signs of pressure, and I am finished. I analyse targets at home.

With fire breathers like the 264 Win Mag, I load 2 rounds of each load, and shoot them. Then I take the best and load 5 and pick the best.


.

Cat, I must have been taught by the same guy you were taught by.

+1

I load for a lot of wild cats and use non canister surplus powder often. So, years ago I learned to find my max safe working load. I load one round at a time, increasing powder charge 0.5g at a time, to find what I consider a safe working max load for my rifle. Since my rifle and components can not read a reloading manual, no telling where that max load may be found, note also that temp the day the loads are shot and info is only good for that rifle.

Once I find the safe working max load, then the accuracy load will usually be found within 2.0g of that safe working max load.

I will shoot three shots at a time working up to that safe Max load, tweek the powder charge, play with the primer choice, and play with seating depth. I load at the rifle range and the changing of components may sound like a long drawn out affair but accuracy is usually achieve within 30 shots on the long side.

In custom guns with super barrels, you can work on two shot groups, you are looking for bullets to go in the same bullet hole. I was taught the above method in 1968 by an old time benchrest shooter that had lots of wild cats for that era.

Cat's method is a hands down winner for a guy that does not load at the rifle range, make no mistake about it.

I have spend so much time working over wind flags shooting Benchrest Competion, that I had rather eat a rat than shoot a ladder test. I expect much better accuracy than the OCW test would ever produce.

Hope this helps

If you load five sets of loads for the ladder or OCW tests... and shoot five separate sets of "tests", they will all be different - so none of them are worth anything.

It has to do with statistics and is easy to prove... plus, the explanation that these guys give of their "theories" would make a 5 year old giggle.


.

 
Quote:I'm glad to finally hear someone else say what I've been thinking all along. I have tried both of these methods and always ended up frustrated and going back to my old way of working up a load....Me too...

Since most of my reloading is for the .204 and .223 calibers, I work up ten rounds of each charge with maximum seating length for the magazine...

I start one full grain below published (from bullet or powder mfgr) max load and work up a series in 1/10th grain increments..all shots are made from a really solid rest with be only touching the trigger...Firearm is locked in Lead Sled..
GroupTestingSetup.jpg


After the first three shots, I'll have an idea of grouping,,,Those that are coming together, I'll fire five...Once I determine the tightest group, I'll shoot the remaining five in that powder charge for verification..The rest I tear down and load to the best specs..
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterLadder and OCW are bogus myths... you cannot get repeatable results, so the results are worthless.


I have used the OCW and felt like it worked pretty well for me. I'll find my OCW, then tweek it a bit from there with lengths and such. Once I have that, I'll verify it by running a 6 shot group at +.2, OCW, and -.2 to ensure a consistant POI. I'm strictly a fur shooter, and like the idea of loading up a couple hundred rounds for the season, then being pretty much done with it. I don't weigh and trickle every load after that, as I have tested my load up and down .2 and know the POI will be within the 1 MOA I look for.

Would be curious to know where you see the flaws in this method though. I'm not so stuck in my ways that I'm not willing to make adjustments.
 
Originally Posted By: WebopperOriginally Posted By: CatShooterLadder and OCW are bogus myths... you cannot get repeatable results, so the results are worthless.


I have used the OCW and felt like it worked pretty well for me. I'll find my OCW, then tweek it a bit from there with lengths and such. Once I have that, I'll verify it by running a 6 shot group at +.2, OCW, and -.2 to ensure a consistant POI. I'm strictly a fur shooter, and like the idea of loading up a couple hundred rounds for the season, then being pretty much done with it. I don't weigh and trickle every load after that, as I have tested my load up and down .2 and know the POI will be within the 1 MOA I look for.

Would be curious to know where you see the flaws in this method though. I'm not so stuck in my ways that I'm not willing to make adjustments.

The biggest flaws are.

1 - Do the same set of loads five times - take each different set and give them to someone and ask them to read the test and tell you what the best load is - you will get five different answers.

2 - Read their explanation of how their theories work, and it doesn't even make to the 5th grade science level - it is made up gibberish.

3 - To say a bullet/load test must be done at 300 or 400 yds is pure BS. At that range, there are a lot of outside influences and variables that come into play - ANY accuracy testing should be done at 100, unless the groups are so small that it is not possible to separate the holes (like a bench gun).


.
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooter

The biggest flaws are.

1 - Do the same set of loads five times - take each different set and give them to someone and ask them to read the test and tell you what the best load is - you will get five different answers.

2 - Read their explanation of how their theories work, and it doesn't even make to the 5th grade science level - it is made up gibberish.

3 - To say a bullet/load test must be done at 300 or 400 yds is pure BS. At that range, there are a lot of outside influences and variables that come into play - ANY accuracy testing should be done at 100, unless the groups are so small that it is not possible to separate the holes (like a bench gun).


.

1 - Well, good luck finding 5 people in the same room that understand what the OCW test is, and it's purpose. I'm not sure I fully understand it, but it works for the purposes that I use it. Also, I've got my targets from an OCW from a couple years ago that is still the bullet and charge I'm using. Read it and let's see if you come up with the same thing I did.

2 - I wasn't interested in the theories, just the results.

3 - I've never shot at anything in the 300 yard range, so also not applicable to me.

100_0088.jpg

100_0089.jpg

100_0090.jpg


Also note, it actually goes from 39.6 to 40.0 and 40.4, not all the way up to 41. I just wrote that wrong on the paper...
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooter

You're kidding, right???

There is no useful information there.


.

What else do you need to know?
 
Originally Posted By: WebopperOriginally Posted By: CatShooter

You're kidding, right???

There is no useful information there.


.

What else do you need to know?

I'd be curious as to which load you picked for further testing.
 
Most people would jump on that 38.4 load that's at .5", but I went with 39.9 as my early season load. It doesn't quite shoot .5 (and I don't care, cause it's pretty close), but it shoots very well, even if I'm +/-.2 grains or, Heaven forbid, I mix my brass...

If you understand OCW, at least the way that I interpreted it, you know why I went with that.
 
KATTRAKER said:
In regards to testing loads on a new gun-

(((I research what powders are commonly used with the bullet weight I want to try. I load 20 shells with 5 different combinations.

I test 5 different combinations, all loaded at listed starting points. If you shoot 4 shot groups of each, you can load 20 rounds and find out pretty quick what your rifle likes.))))



On these 5 different combinations, all loaded at listed starting points:::: Are these with 5 different powders and one bullet or 5 different powders and five different bullets. Curious as to what 5 different combo's mean to you. Rick
 
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Quote...

3 - To say a bullet/load test must be done at 300 or 400 yds is pure BS. At that range, there are a lot of outside influences and variables that come into play - ANY accuracy testing should be done at 100, unless the groups are so small that it is not possible to separate the holes (like a bench gun).


I believe that the idea behind shooting 300 yds and more is when you are focused on really shooting 600 yds and more.

I've heard some 6BR guys say that the best groups at 100 are not always the best at 300 and more.

The OCW 100 yd testing is simply loading 3 rounds at max, then 3 more at little less, then 3 more a little more less and so on, until you have 5-7, 3 round group of loads to shoot at 5-7 different targets... starting with the lowest charge working up while watching for pressure.

The idea is to NOT look for just one best group, but the three best groups that join together.... then focus on the center group/charge as your main load... then adjusting smaller charges on both sides of that load, looking for the better. Once you find that central load, then your EXACT loads won't be so critical, nor will pressure rise or fall be so critical. Your looking for a MORE FORGIVING LOAD... which also makes it less critical for dump loading your reloads.

Do not focus on horizonal groups... vertical groups are acceptable.

I believe the best procedure is to shoot one low round at one bullseye, wait two mins and shoot one round of the next powder charge at a second bulleye... wait two mins, then shoot one round of your third charge at the third bulleye, and continue waiting 2 mins between shots and shoot a different load each time until you have shot one load at each target, then start this round-robin sequence all over again. By doing it round robin fashion, it makes all the shots fair with each other because of a barrel heat, wind, light, and so on.

Most people are shooting a rough idea of the OCW by shooting differnt charges at different bulleyes, but not getting the full effect of the complete system.

Once you follow the system for finding the proper load... then you can do the same system again but only change the seating depth... and then again for different primers if desired.

The major point to the OCW is that you will be able to find the best 3 side by side groups for any powder, bullet, seating depth, cases, primers, etc. etc.

Doing an intellegent loading-shooting procedure will tell you what is the best load for your rifle way better than a random load of a... this and that hair pulling procedure.

PS... in understanding the long range ladder testing at 300 or more yards... the horizonal spread must be looked at with a LESS critical eye because of wind drift influence. Measuring the vetical height of these groups is the important test.... not the horizonal spread.
 
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Using a 60g .223 bullets as an example. I load five of each from 25g to 27g in .5 increments with Varget.

I put up 5 targets then load 5 rounds in my mag. 25g, 25.5g, 26g, 26.5g, 27. First round 25g I fire into first target then second shot 25.5g into 2nd target and so on. I don’t shoot a constant 5 round group of same into one target consecutively.

I take them home look at them closely and choose the one with the best group as my load. If I don’t like any of them I do this again with a different powder if I do like the smallest group, I load 20 more and shoot them another day and tweak my sights if needed then go load a hundred or so to have on hand for that rifle.

Sounds simple but in reality I do this with about every powder, primer, bullet configuration. Once I feel I have done every load combo and settled on a load for that gun I get bored and go buy another gun so I can start this process over.LOL…….

Many years ago I would shoot 5 of same and let barrel cool completely then shoot another group of 5 then so on, but was just too time consuming for me.
 
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