But could/would a gun chambered for a cartridge other than the standard shotgun gauges even be considered a shotgun just by smoothing the rifling down. Who's ever heard of a long barrel .38 shotgun? I could see the Judge being covered but I'm not sure how the others fit in to the picture.
Snake Gun Shotshell Unofficial Comparison
- Thread starter kel
- Start date
Originally Posted By: kelBut could/would a gun chambered for a cartridge other than the standard shotgun gauges even be considered a shotgun just by smoothing the rifling down. Who's ever heard of a long barrel .38 shotgun? I could see the Judge being covered but I'm not sure how the others fit in to the picture.
Les s than 18" and no rifling IS a shotgun. Caliber /gauge is immaterial. That's why the Judge and the Contender 410 bbl's still have rifling.
Les s than 18" and no rifling IS a shotgun. Caliber /gauge is immaterial. That's why the Judge and the Contender 410 bbl's still have rifling.
From the ATF site, According to Title 18 United States Code, Chapter 44 Under definitions on page 6
Word for word:
The term "short barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
I give you the Judge and Contender as they're chambered to hold shotgun shells. I still question the .22lr etc as the guns they chamber in are not considered shotguns. Maybe if somebody wants to split hairs and say it's a shotshell so now it becomes a shotgun, however when you put a slug in a 12 gauge it doesn't change the classification of that firearm to a rifle.
I'm going to make this easy for all and you can add your guesses of the answer but since you can't email general questions to the ATF, only mail, I've drafted a letter posing this question. I don't know what the answer will be, but we'll get the right one from the source.
Edit: Found an email address, I'll post the reply when it comes in.
Word for word:
The term "short barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
I give you the Judge and Contender as they're chambered to hold shotgun shells. I still question the .22lr etc as the guns they chamber in are not considered shotguns. Maybe if somebody wants to split hairs and say it's a shotshell so now it becomes a shotgun, however when you put a slug in a 12 gauge it doesn't change the classification of that firearm to a rifle.
I'm going to make this easy for all and you can add your guesses of the answer but since you can't email general questions to the ATF, only mail, I've drafted a letter posing this question. I don't know what the answer will be, but we'll get the right one from the source.
Edit: Found an email address, I'll post the reply when it comes in.
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The Virginian
New member
Kel,
I'm very interested in the reply you get and I tip my hat to you for chasing down the info. Well played...
Eric
I'm very interested in the reply you get and I tip my hat to you for chasing down the info. Well played...
Eric
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: kelFrom the ATF site, According to Title 18 United States Code, Chapter 44 Under definitions on page 6
Word for word:
The term "short barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
I give you the Judge and Contender as they're chambered to hold shotgun shells. I still question the .22lr etc as the guns they chamber in are not considered shotguns. Maybe if somebody wants to split hairs and say it's a shotshell so now it becomes a shotgun, however when you put a slug in a 12 gauge it doesn't change the classification of that firearm to a rifle.
I'm going to make this easy for all and you can add your guesses of the answer but since you can't email general questions to the ATF, only mail, I've drafted a letter posing this question. I don't know what the answer will be, but we'll get the right one from the source.
Edit: Found an email address, I'll post the reply when it comes in.
It is not a matter of splitting hairs - these are very simple definitions. It makes no difference what cartridge the gun is chambered for.
If the barrel is smooth - not rifled - it is a shotgun - it makes no difference what it is chambered for.
If the barrel is smooth and shorter than 18",then it is a short barreled shotgun, no matter what it is chambered for.
If you shoot 22lr shot shells in your S&W K-22, it is a pistol not a shotgun.
.
Word for word:
The term "short barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
I give you the Judge and Contender as they're chambered to hold shotgun shells. I still question the .22lr etc as the guns they chamber in are not considered shotguns. Maybe if somebody wants to split hairs and say it's a shotshell so now it becomes a shotgun, however when you put a slug in a 12 gauge it doesn't change the classification of that firearm to a rifle.
I'm going to make this easy for all and you can add your guesses of the answer but since you can't email general questions to the ATF, only mail, I've drafted a letter posing this question. I don't know what the answer will be, but we'll get the right one from the source.
Edit: Found an email address, I'll post the reply when it comes in.
It is not a matter of splitting hairs - these are very simple definitions. It makes no difference what cartridge the gun is chambered for.
If the barrel is smooth - not rifled - it is a shotgun - it makes no difference what it is chambered for.
If the barrel is smooth and shorter than 18",then it is a short barreled shotgun, no matter what it is chambered for.
If you shoot 22lr shot shells in your S&W K-22, it is a pistol not a shotgun.
.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: kelBut could/would a gun chambered for a cartridge other than the standard shotgun gauges even be considered a shotgun just by smoothing the rifling down. Who's ever heard of a long barrel .38 shotgun? I could see the Judge being covered but I'm not sure how the others fit in to the picture.
If you take a 22 handgun, and smoothen the rifling out so it will not stabilize a bullet, you have made a short barreled shotgun - and you are in big trouble if you didn't get the $200 tax stamp FIRST.
.
If you take a 22 handgun, and smoothen the rifling out so it will not stabilize a bullet, you have made a short barreled shotgun - and you are in big trouble if you didn't get the $200 tax stamp FIRST.
.
I found the my answer while going thru the ATF laws some more and when I got back here CatShooter had nailed it. Interesting to point out that the ATF's definition of a shotgun is a smooth bore designed to fire either a number of shot or one shot with no mention of size, once again Catshooter had it. The one shot surprises me but I guess the smooth bore is the key.
So....a smooth bore .22 wouldn't be worth $200 to me. But a smooth bore Judge? That might be interesting. But, and I'll refer to you CatShooter as I'm burned out looking thru the ATF site this morning. Can an average joe just smooth his own barrel and pay the $200? I would think that would fall under manufacturing or modification and there's got to be some red tape or can you even do it as it was not manufactured that way?
If anyone wants the rules, here they are and page 6 is where they talk about it.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
Edit: I went ahead and emailed the ATF asking for the reasoning behind preventing manufactures from producing smooth bore, small caliber handguns in .22, .38 etc labeled for shotshell use only as the normal bullet they would fire would be much more lethal. I know they're probably busy and the email will go into the great recycle bin, but if I hear back I'll post it.
So....a smooth bore .22 wouldn't be worth $200 to me. But a smooth bore Judge? That might be interesting. But, and I'll refer to you CatShooter as I'm burned out looking thru the ATF site this morning. Can an average joe just smooth his own barrel and pay the $200? I would think that would fall under manufacturing or modification and there's got to be some red tape or can you even do it as it was not manufactured that way?
If anyone wants the rules, here they are and page 6 is where they talk about it.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
Edit: I went ahead and emailed the ATF asking for the reasoning behind preventing manufactures from producing smooth bore, small caliber handguns in .22, .38 etc labeled for shotshell use only as the normal bullet they would fire would be much more lethal. I know they're probably busy and the email will go into the great recycle bin, but if I hear back I'll post it.
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CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: kelI found the my answer while going thru the ATF laws some more and when I got back here CatShooter had nailed it. Interesting to point out that the ATF's definition of a shotgun is a smooth bore designed to fire either a number of shot or one shot with no mention of size, once again Catshooter had it. The one shot surprises me but I guess the smooth bore is the key.
So....a smooth bore .22 wouldn't be worth $200 to me. But a smooth bore Judge? That might be interesting. But, and I'll refer to you CatShooter as I'm burned out looking thru the ATF site this morning. Can an average joe just smooth his own barrel and pay the $200? I would think that would fall under manufacturing or modification and there's got to be some red tape or can you even do it as it was not manufactured that way?
If anyone wants the rules, here they are and page 6 is where they talk about it.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
Once you get into the world of registered firearms, you are always unhappy
A short barreled shotgun, or a shotgun that is less than 26 overall (20" barrel, 5" action/stock) are tracked as to where they are at all times.
So, you get a 1911, and decide to get a separate smooth bore barrel made, and you pay the $200 ad do the paperwork, and you now have an "NFA Firearm".... a short barreled shotgun.
If you want to go visit Auntie Mary in another state, and want to take your 1911 with you - even without the smooth barrel.... You have to get permission from the ATF and tell them when you are going and when you are coming back, because it is the receiver is what is registered, not the barrel, so now, even without the smooth bore barrel, your 1911 is an NFA firearm, just like a machine gun
That applies to ALL ATF registered firearms.
You can travel with suppressors without prior permission and itinerary... with everything else - they know where you're gun is at all times
.
So....a smooth bore .22 wouldn't be worth $200 to me. But a smooth bore Judge? That might be interesting. But, and I'll refer to you CatShooter as I'm burned out looking thru the ATF site this morning. Can an average joe just smooth his own barrel and pay the $200? I would think that would fall under manufacturing or modification and there's got to be some red tape or can you even do it as it was not manufactured that way?
If anyone wants the rules, here they are and page 6 is where they talk about it.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
Once you get into the world of registered firearms, you are always unhappy
A short barreled shotgun, or a shotgun that is less than 26 overall (20" barrel, 5" action/stock) are tracked as to where they are at all times.
So, you get a 1911, and decide to get a separate smooth bore barrel made, and you pay the $200 ad do the paperwork, and you now have an "NFA Firearm".... a short barreled shotgun.
If you want to go visit Auntie Mary in another state, and want to take your 1911 with you - even without the smooth barrel.... You have to get permission from the ATF and tell them when you are going and when you are coming back, because it is the receiver is what is registered, not the barrel, so now, even without the smooth bore barrel, your 1911 is an NFA firearm, just like a machine gun
That applies to ALL ATF registered firearms.
You can travel with suppressors without prior permission and itinerary... with everything else - they know where you're gun is at all times
.
CrazyHorse66
New member
I believe a smoothbore pistol that never had a stock attached to it is considered an AOW and requires a $5 tax stamp to transfer or a $200 tax stamp to manufacture.
ATF defines a shotgun as a shoulder fired weapon.
"2.1.1 Shotgun A shotgun is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the
energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of
projectiles or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.10 A shotgun subject to the NFA has a barrel
or barrels of less than 18 inches in length."
"It is important to note that any pistol or revolver having a barrel without a rifled bore does not fit within the exclusion and is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA."
Link
ATF defines a shotgun as a shoulder fired weapon.
"2.1.1 Shotgun A shotgun is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the
energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of
projectiles or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.10 A shotgun subject to the NFA has a barrel
or barrels of less than 18 inches in length."
"It is important to note that any pistol or revolver having a barrel without a rifled bore does not fit within the exclusion and is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA."
Link
willy1947
Active member
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Jack RobertsIs a smoothbore pistol legal?
It would become a short barreled shotgun which is illegal.
Jack
No.. very UN-LEGAL. Don't pass go, go to jail, pay $10,000 fine, and never own a gun again.
You CAN register it - $200, though it has to be legal in your state also.
.
Just got off the phone with ATF. The Agent told me that a smooth bore barrel for my 1911 is okay because it is handgun. It took six calls to talk to a real person.
Heck, I bought it in a gun shop. I looked it up in my book.
It would become a short barreled shotgun which is illegal.
Jack
No.. very UN-LEGAL. Don't pass go, go to jail, pay $10,000 fine, and never own a gun again.
You CAN register it - $200, though it has to be legal in your state also.
.
Just got off the phone with ATF. The Agent told me that a smooth bore barrel for my 1911 is okay because it is handgun. It took six calls to talk to a real person.
Heck, I bought it in a gun shop. I looked it up in my book.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: willy1947Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Jack RobertsIs a smoothbore pistol legal?
It would become a short barreled shotgun which is illegal.
Jack
No.. very UN-LEGAL. Don't pass go, go to jail, pay $10,000 fine, and never own a gun again.
You CAN register it - $200, though it has to be legal in your state also.
.
Just got off the phone with ATF. The Agent told me that a smooth bore barrel for my 1911 is okay because it is handgun. It took six calls to talk to a real person.
Heck, I bought it in a gun shop. I looked it up in my book.
I would suggest you get in writing - cuz it ain't so.
The only branch of the ATF that can answer that question is the Firearms Technology Branch, and they don't answer questions over the phone.
Call them for instructions on how to mail them at:
304-616-4300
It would become a short barreled shotgun which is illegal.
Jack
No.. very UN-LEGAL. Don't pass go, go to jail, pay $10,000 fine, and never own a gun again.
You CAN register it - $200, though it has to be legal in your state also.
.
Just got off the phone with ATF. The Agent told me that a smooth bore barrel for my 1911 is okay because it is handgun. It took six calls to talk to a real person.
Heck, I bought it in a gun shop. I looked it up in my book.
I would suggest you get in writing - cuz it ain't so.
The only branch of the ATF that can answer that question is the Firearms Technology Branch, and they don't answer questions over the phone.
Call them for instructions on how to mail them at:
304-616-4300
Originally Posted By: willy1947Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Jack RobertsIs a smoothbore pistol legal?
It would become a short barreled shotgun which is illegal.
Jack
No.. very UN-LEGAL. Don't pass go, go to jail, pay $10,000 fine, and never own a gun again.
You CAN register it - $200, though it has to be legal in your state also.
.
Just got off the phone with ATF. The Agent told me that a smooth bore barrel for my 1911 is okay because it is handgun. It took six calls to talk to a real person.
Heck, I bought it in a gun shop. I looked it up in my book.
Well,
that's good news for you as I was wondering about that .45 I may have gotten his phone number just in case. I wonder if he says it's good because it's manufactured by a company and not modified by an individual? This may be a area like when I was trying to find out if I could mount a light directly to my gun for night hunting. I had to call the game department and got 3 different interpretations before the area captain said I could. I carry his name and number in my wallet with his blessing to call if anything comes up. I guess I'll sit and wait to see if I get an answer back from my email. I made it specifically clear I was talking about small bore handguns.
It would become a short barreled shotgun which is illegal.
Jack
No.. very UN-LEGAL. Don't pass go, go to jail, pay $10,000 fine, and never own a gun again.
You CAN register it - $200, though it has to be legal in your state also.
.
Just got off the phone with ATF. The Agent told me that a smooth bore barrel for my 1911 is okay because it is handgun. It took six calls to talk to a real person.
Heck, I bought it in a gun shop. I looked it up in my book.
Well,
that's good news for you as I was wondering about that .45 I may have gotten his phone number just in case. I wonder if he says it's good because it's manufactured by a company and not modified by an individual? This may be a area like when I was trying to find out if I could mount a light directly to my gun for night hunting. I had to call the game department and got 3 different interpretations before the area captain said I could. I carry his name and number in my wallet with his blessing to call if anything comes up. I guess I'll sit and wait to see if I get an answer back from my email. I made it specifically clear I was talking about small bore handguns.
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Originally Posted By: atdLemat revolver. You can buy one at cabela's.
Crap, black powder, but 5 7/8 smoothbore 20 gauge barrel. Who knows what's right anymore?
http://www.cabelas.com/pistols-lemat-revolver.shtml
If that's the case it must be the black powder or single shot ability, otherwise that's bs the Judge gets handicaped with rifling
Crap, black powder, but 5 7/8 smoothbore 20 gauge barrel. Who knows what's right anymore?
http://www.cabelas.com/pistols-lemat-revolver.shtml
If that's the case it must be the black powder or single shot ability, otherwise that's bs the Judge gets handicaped with rifling
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CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: atdLemat revolver. You can buy one at cabela's.
That is black powder - doesn't count.
That is black powder - doesn't count.
CrazyHorse66
New member
They even say it twice in the same section.
2.1.5
"Also included in the “any other weapon” definition are pistols and revolvers having smooth bore barrels
designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell."
"It is important to note that any pistol or revolver having a barrel
without a rifled bore does not fit within the exclusion and is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA."
Here's the link again.
If you install that barrel, you have manufactured an AOW which is subject to the NFA.
2.1.5
"Also included in the “any other weapon” definition are pistols and revolvers having smooth bore barrels
designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell."
"It is important to note that any pistol or revolver having a barrel
without a rifled bore does not fit within the exclusion and is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA."
Here's the link again.
If you install that barrel, you have manufactured an AOW which is subject to the NFA.
CatShooter
New member
Deleted...
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[/quote]The "Game department"???
You're kidding, right.
They can't give you legal advice on ATF matters.
You need to talk to the ATF, and no one else. If you get caught with an NFA violation, you can't use, "The Game Captain told me it was OK" as a defense.
. [/quote]
You cut a bit off of my post. It was pertaining to using a light permanently affixed to the gun for night hunting. But I meant to type game warden.
You're kidding, right.
They can't give you legal advice on ATF matters.
You need to talk to the ATF, and no one else. If you get caught with an NFA violation, you can't use, "The Game Captain told me it was OK" as a defense.
. [/quote]
You cut a bit off of my post. It was pertaining to using a light permanently affixed to the gun for night hunting. But I meant to type game warden.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: kel
You cut a bit off of my post. It was pertaining to using a light permanently affixed to the gun for night hunting. But I meant to type game warden.
Sorry... didn't catch that.
You cut a bit off of my post. It was pertaining to using a light permanently affixed to the gun for night hunting. But I meant to type game warden.
Sorry... didn't catch that.
CatShooter, I'm not arguing the point with you. I agree that reading the definitions makes any pistol with a smooth bore a no no without ATF approval. I just think the law was written to cover the large standard shotguns that can be cut down and still pack quite a punch with buckshot. The unfortunate part is it grouped the smaller pistol types (read non-judge) into the same catagory. I would rather be shot with a pistol caliber shotshell than the regular round as long as it wasn't in my face and I was blinded in both eyes.
I'm willing to bet Taurus worked hard with the ATF to try to get an exemption for the Judge because I think manufacturers can try to get an exemption for certain things can't they? I'm wondering if anyone's tried to get one for the small calibers. I'd guess so, and I'd guess it was unsuccessful.
I'm willing to bet Taurus worked hard with the ATF to try to get an exemption for the Judge because I think manufacturers can try to get an exemption for certain things can't they? I'm wondering if anyone's tried to get one for the small calibers. I'd guess so, and I'd guess it was unsuccessful.