Wonder why coyotes are not responding?

Razzing ya on poop diameter CR
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Poop diameter might give a rough guess to size. I just don't believe it is very accurate.

Paw size is more accurate in estimating body size. 3" long coyote paw print, IMO puts that coyote on the large size. Potential 50 lb coyote on a fat day.

Yrs ago I {weighed & measured} some. As in length from chest to rump. As well as top of the shoulder to bottom of the front pad, for example.

24" high shoulder is a large coyote, 40 lbs +

You'll have to excuse my long term memory. Which is crap anymore.

Good shooting
 
for the most part I agree with Kirby. Usually only the alpha pair will breed. If there is plenty of food. The alpha may breed a beta female. If there is a scarcity of prey. The alpha couple may not breed at all .

Coyotes, DO NOT run in packs. They may appear in some loosely formed family groups until time to kick out the kids.

Poop size can be an indicator of body size only if the dog and the coyote eat exactly the same thing, in exactly the same amount.

A coyote track will typically be somewhat larger than the same weight dog.

The average size coyote in Arizona is 20 to 25 lbs. a 35 pounder is huge, and rare.

All statements are facts.

Dave
 
Here's another fact, Dave. I've watched coyotes in these small farm land sections in my hunt areas. For over 40yrs. Observing them from the gravel roads. With my binocs & spotter scopes. Last 30yrs I often hunted 16-18 days a month. Which often included hunting daily for wk long stretches most months.

Watching them hunt, play, travel, breed, interact, ect. I suspect a fair amount of people/[experts? included] have a problem with my observations & or opinions. Regardless, opposing opinions do not sway my own experiences in the slightest. But on a very rare occasion. Does a facet of incoming truth change my understanding.
 
You guys have made me curious about this whole pack thing. I just picked out nuggets from some studies that I stumbled across and make some remarks at the bottom regarding my own thoughts based on coyote vocalizations where I hunt.

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/Behavior/Spring2004/holmberg/Holmberg4.html

"Coyotes which live in northern and western areas of their range display more developed and complex social systems than coyotes found in the southern and eastern areas of their range (Chamberlain et al. 2000).

All coyotes travel and live together either in groups of three or more individuals called packs, as mated pairs, or as solitary individuals, called transients (Andelt 1985; Bekoff & Wells 1980; Chamberlain et al. 2000). The basic unit of a coyote pack is the mated pair. To form a pack the mated pair is accompanied by pack associates who can be genetically related or unrelated individuals (Bekoff & Wells). Coyotes may live in packs because they are able to better defend resources such as food caches or carrion (Bekoff & Wells 1980). In general, more coyotes live in packs, approximately 70%, than coyotes that live as mated pairs, approximately 17%. The other 13% accounts for transient individuals. Packs make up a large percentage of the population because pups will stay with their parents up to one year after birth.

Coordinated group hunting among coyote packs is rare because of their ability to survive on small mammals such as gophers (Bekoff & Wells 1980). Although coyotes have a highly developed solitary hunting method they only make a successful kills 10% to 50% of the time (Bekoff & Wells 1980)."
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http://urbancoyoteresearch.com/Packs.htm

"Although coyotes live in family groups, they usually travel and hunt alone or in loose pairs. In this way they are different from wolves, which leads to the impression that coyotes do not form packs since they are usually seen alone. In addition to resident groups, the urban population also consists of solitary coyotes that have left packs and are looking to join groups or create their own territories. Between one-third and one-half of the coyotes we captured each year were solitary animals. These solitary coyotes can be either males or females and are usually young coyotes (six months to two years old) but can also be older individuals who have left packs. If a coyote is seen running across a field, it is impossible to know if it is a solitary coyote or a member of a pack from that sighting."
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http://www.dnr.state.il.us/orc/wildlife/furbearers/coyote.htm

"An average home range encompasses 2-10 square miles. Members of packs tend to have smaller home ranges than “loners”. Sizes of home ranges are also influenced by the quality of habitat a coyote lives in, presence of nearby packs and seasons of the year – especially when coyotes are breeding or rearing pups.

Home ranges are not exclusive; several coyotes might live in the same area. These groups, referred to as packs, usually consist of extended families. Members of one pack rarely venture into another’s territory. Some coyotes do not belong to packs. These solitary coyotes tend to have larger home ranges than pack coyotes and are less respectful of pack boundaries. They sometimes join a pack when one of the members leaves or dies."
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Now my words again:

Based on studies by various biologists around the country and each of your own observations, it would seem that there are recognisable facts that would make you both correct in most cases, but also incorrect in some cases.

Since it is recognized that most coyotes hunt alone, isn't it possible that your "lone" coyote is part of a mated pair or larger family group (dare we use the term "pack"?)?

While neither of you believe that "packs" exist in coyote biology, biologists consider any family group of 3 or larger a "pack". It is apparent however, that "packs", when they occur, would likely consist of pups or adolescents whose presence is perhaps temporary as they will eventually strike out on their own.

One could argue that if 2 pups stay with the mating pair for 1-2 years, then that 4 coyote family group could legitimately be called a "pack" during such period of time as that family group consists of 4 coyotes.

It seems from all accounts that there is a 50% chance that when you are observing a coyote or have called in a single coyote, it is a much smaller chance that it is a solitary or transient coyote then it being one of a mating pair or family group. It would also seem likely that when 3 or more animals are called in at one time that this is one of those family groups and could correctly from a scientific perspective be called a pack.

Please tell me what you would call a group of 3 or more coyotes observed at one time if not a pack as that is the correct scientific term for such a group of coyotes.

As it seems that at any one time coyotes that you observe could be either a solitary animal, one or both of a mating pair, or one of a family group (pack???) that consists of 3 or more animals, I would hesitate to use the word FACT to express that coyotes do not "pack up" as it would appear a family group of multiple animals meets the scientific definition of a pack, even if it is a temporary condition.

I would hazard an educated guess that in wolf country, coyote "packs" would be more common as a logical defensive and security posture against their larger cousins who would be happy to kill their smaller competition when encountered.

It would be interesting to hear some other opinions on this notion that there are no such things as coyote "packs".

I'm not convinced based on the numbers of animals represented when I hear coyote vocalizations (i.e. greater than 3 animals)locally that they are not happy to exist in some numbers in close proximity to one another and if living in close proximity to one another sharing the same range, prey items, and denning areas, that one would not consider it a "pack".

Let the debate continue..............
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Raptor

P.S. to the retired Chief - former USN enlisted here - 1988-1992 PN2 - USS Saratoga CV-60 - Homeport: Mayport, FL. Go Navy!



 
Dang CR, you must have alot of free time LOL! Lets see now 3 coyotes together = 1/2 of a six pack of course
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. Naw

What I have done is positively I.D'd mated prs. Observed them on their territory. I estimated territorial "fringes" by observing neighboring breeding prs & their yearlings on their "fringe areas" Which by the way overlap other territorys.

This over lapping is not a very wide distance span. An aerial view of these "territory ranges". Would look like multiple spilled liquids[play along here will ya]on a table top. As they are irregular in shape. These irregular territorys over lap to some extent on the outer edges.

Overlap areas I refer to as {no mans land}. Or a buffer area. Where neighboring coyotes can hunt, bed or other wise travel to & fro. Yearling pups often hang in those overlap areas. Specfically as they near a yr in age.

BTW I have read many of those authors remarks. Most opinions I agree with.

Other than an actual "family group" These other groups are yearlings finding their way or looking for a mate. I call them nomads. As they don't have a true established territory of their own.

I refer to a neighboring coyote that in on another's territory. As a tresspesser.

I'm of the opinion. Whether it be a nomad or a tresspasser, or a nomadic tresspasser coyote. That coyote knows when it is on another coyote's territory. Which makes them most wary. Often looking 360, rather than just looking cross or down-wind. Such as a territorial/local coyote does.
 
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Had a young sprout call BS on me not long ago. How can "I know or tell" one coyote from another? Gee whiz, do I count hairs or what? Uh well no.

Day after day, after day. I zoom in with my spotter & can pick out various coloration markings on most all coyotes. That are on known territorys. I also look at other I.D. physical features. Good grief, it isn't rocket science.

Observe I.D, observe I.D, observe I.D.

I spot/stalk. Hense, that is why I observe.
 
BTW CR, getting back to estimating body size vs print size. IMO paw print size typically corresponds to body size, not necessarily to weight. As some canines may/tend to be lean, while others may be fat.
 
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Here are a couple "typical" color variations. I've seen very few coyotes over the yrs that "look or appear" like a twin of another coyote.

Sure two coyotes can look like twins/similar from a distance. But close up, or with a good clear view the difference is noticable. I.D'ing one coyote from another is not hard. You only need be observant.

d8a9fe81.jpg

5f564995.jpg
 
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LOL, Kirby. It doesn't take long to cut and paste.

Anytime I hear absolutes stated in regards to any subject, I get nosy. The CPO put my ears up with his capital "DO NOT" statement and these are all "FACTS" statement.

I believe that there are facts both in what you and the Chief have observed over time and also believe that there are other facts observed by biologists and animal behavioralists that not only support what you and the Chief have personally observed, but also add a more rounded picture of coyote behaviour and lifestyle to what you have experienced.

I like learning and the fastest way for me to learn is to open my ears and my brain and research from multiple sources. Just like I don't get my news from one source, I don't take everything I see, hear, or read as the gospel until I've had time to compare, analyze, and research. It has served me well over the years.

I want you to know that I do respect your observations and really enjoy your posts and photos.

And I don't know why anyone would think you can't identify individual animals over time. If Jane Goodall could do it with chimps and biologists can do it with packs of hyenas, of course you can do it with coyotes!

Thanks, Kirby.

Raptor
 
10-4, CR. You might've read my sig line? I do believe I know & have observed quite abit for a rounded education on Red Fox & the coyotes. But I also know, what I know or think? I know. Is but a speck of sand on the matter. I suspect the same from others.
 
Now my words again:

Based on studies by various biologists around the country and each of your own observations, it would seem that there are recognisable facts that would make you both correct in most cases, but also incorrect in some cases.

Since it is recognized that most coyotes hunt alone, isn't it possible that your "lone" coyote is part of a mated pair or larger family group (dare we use the term "pack"?)?

While neither of you believe that "packs" exist in coyote biology, biologists consider any family group of 3 or larger a "pack". It is apparent however, that "packs", when they occur, would likely consist of pups or adolescents whose presence is perhaps temporary as they will eventually strike out on their own.

One could argue that if 2 pups stay with the mating pair for 1-2 years, then that 4 coyote family group could legitimately be called a "pack" during such period of time as that family group consists of 4 coyotes.

It seems from all accounts that there is a 50% chance that when you are observing a coyote or have called in a single coyote, it is a much smaller chance that it is a solitary or transient coyote then it being one of a mating pair or family group. It would also seem likely that when 3 or more animals are called in at one time that this is one of those family groups and could correctly from a scientific perspective be called a pack.

Please tell me what you would call a group of 3 or more coyotes observed at one time if not a pack as that is the correct scientific term for such a group of coyotes.

As it seems that at any one time coyotes that you observe could be either a solitary animal, one or both of a mating pair, or one of a family group (pack???) that consists of 3 or more animals, I would hesitate to use the word FACT to express that coyotes do not "pack up" as it would appear a family group of multiple animals meets the scientific definition of a pack, even if it is a temporary condition.

I would hazard an educated guess that in wolf country, coyote "packs" would be more common as a logical defensive and security posture against their larger cousins who would be happy to kill their smaller competition when encountered.

It would be interesting to hear some other opinions on this notion that there are no such things as coyote "packs".

I'm not convinced based on the numbers of animals represented when I hear coyote vocalizations (i.e. greater than 3 animals)locally that they are not happy to exist in some numbers in close proximity to one another and if living in close proximity to one another sharing the same range, prey items, and denning areas, that one would not consider it a "pack".

Let the debate continue..............
thumbup.gif


Raptor

P.S. to the retired Chief - former USN enlisted here - 1988-1992 PN2 - USS Saratoga CV-60 - Homeport: Mayport, FL. Go Navy!



[/quote]

CR, I've seen & observed many adult pr's that had an established territory. I have also observed the yearlings, & or either adult hunting alone. Seen the adults hunt together, no pups. As well as seen both adults & one or more yearlings hunting/traveling together. The time I see these older established territorial pr's together "mainly" is during breeding season. Otherwise I often see them out hunting or when bedded down [alone].

Here in central Iowa. The breeding season is at it's peak 3rd wk in Jaunary. Typically drawing to an end mid-latter part of February. Main time table being a month or so. I'm sure breeding continues for another month or so. But it is more sporadic & far between.

One thing I never thought true. Only because I never witnessed it since 1968. Is when an adult pr of coyotes keeps back a yearling pup. I hunted hard for many yrs & never seen such a thing. Well until 2 seasons ago. This was latter part of January if I recall. Same season I witnessed an adult pr of Red Fox do the same thing. Keep back a yearling even through breeding season. Well I admit it now & I admitted it back then. I learned something I thought never existed. Whudja know
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BTW both the Red & coyote pup appeared to be a female. As they were both of a light frame & small size. Interesting.
 
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Here CR, is an adult pr digging a den site. This was December 8th. Female laid by the entrance hole on/off for right around a month. Then they abandoned it for unknown reason.

I'm convinced when an adult female starts to come into heat. That is the trigger time when the pr/[mainly the adult male] scatters their yearlings.

Some experts remark Jan-Feb being the main breeding season. I don't diagree with that opinion/finding. However, some coyotes & Red Fox come into heat, prior & later than those two months. I'm also convinced breeding/in heat "can" take place over a 4 month time span.

December into March for example.

I lost almost all of my old pics. I was only able to salvage a handfull. This picture depicts my hunt terrain. Perfect for viewing. Pr of coyotes out near the 1/2 mile fenceline[top of pic]. Male doing all of the digging.
6590dc7e.jpg
 
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Good stuff, Kirby. More great photos as usual.

It would be great to be in an area where one could see the variety of predators and other wildlife that you have where you are.

You have been able to get a unique perspective on these animals that most of us will never have.

Raptor
 
Yeah it is great viewing open rolling cropland. No complaints. Our Son never took to hunting. Which is why I even join these boards. To show or help some young hunter cut their learning curve & have success.

All my yacking is nothing new for an old timer.
 
CR, I'm not good at copy & paste so bear with me. My remarks to some of the info you quoted.

Every mated pr I have ever observed. Scattered their yearlings come Winter time. A few of those [I.D'd]yearlings I've seen hang on the outer fringe of their parent's territory for a short while. But eventually left when breeding season kicked in. I don't happen to believe a pr of breeding coyotes adopt a non-related coyote. Specifically a non-related adult coyote. Why would they want non-related competition?
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After positively I.D'ing local pr's & family groups. As well as seeing nomads & neighboring coyote tresspassers. A key in intially I.D'ing a nomad/tresspasser is. They are on edge constantly scanning 360. I suspect they are on high alert from the locals? That is my take anyway.
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All the local pr's I have ever observed. Scattered their yearlings come breeding season, or prior to breeding season. Only pr of coyotes I "ever seen" that didn't. Was the pr I noted previously, that kept back a yearling. Which I suspect was a female? pup. Which also was an extreme rarity for me to see. Since I have hunted them going on 43 yrs.

I've also seen small groups of coyotes of which I could not/wasn't able to positively I.D. Seen them all once, then they were gone. One group consisted of 4-males tagging along behind a lone female. That occured during breeding season.
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I suspect why my experiences/opinions sometimes vary from others. Is for one reason, due to differing geogrpahical regions & prey size for example. Such as, mountain coyote behavior compared to small farm land coyote behavior. I expect (some varied differences between the two), but not all that much difference.
 
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Interesting stuff, Kirby. The reason that the pack question keeps coming up in my mind (lacking any similar field observations myself that you have experienced) is based on a pack observation and vocalizations in Arizona while visiting my wife's grandmother and multiple coyote vocalizations that I have had the pleasure of hearing near me in south central Florida and also on my uncle's hunt lease in the Florida panhandle.

The Arizona thing was quite funny. I had remarked to my wife that I had never seen a coyote and wanted to try to get a glimpse of one. This was years ago before the thought of pursuing them in the field was even a thought. We drove the rental car up into the mountains overlooking Lake Havasu with my brother-in-law and his wife with a 12-pack and high hopes. Well, a couple of hours later, disappointed about seeing a coyote, but enjoying the stars and good company we drove back down the mountain into her grandmother's neighborhood.

1/2 a block from her house I slammed on the brakes as 5 coyotes ran across the suburban street right in front of the car. They weren't in the mountains! They were in town knocking over trash cans and looking for cats and small dogs! All we could do was laugh.

Anyway, a few days later we were in Sedona, AZ at a hotel and a "pack" went off for about 2 minutes less than a hundred yards from the hotel. We tried to determine how many there were by the vocalizations, but it was certainly 3 or more.

Fast forward to present day Florida and the 2010 general gun season and we had a "pack" howling throughout the night on a nearby WMA, waking me up several times as we camped. Again, multiple dogs vocalizing in a small area. This also occurred in the Panhandle hunting deer with my uncles. Multiple dogs making vocalizations.

The Arizona pack may have been exceptional as they were "suburban coyotes". Maybe those coyotes that have become town dwellers behave differently due to environment or maybe the "pack" was a larger family group that had not yet disbanded.

As far as the vocalizations that I have observed here in Florida, it was easy to determine multiple animals in a small given area communicating. Is it possible these are extended family groupings within an area, co-existing peacefully and "staying in touch" during the evening feeding times yet not denning together?

There has to be an explanation for these situations. Also, I caught a video on YouTube where Randy Anderson fires up a group of coyotes with coyote vocals and he called in either 4 or 5 which all responded to his calls vocally then came in as a group quite angry about the trespasser. They communicated as a pack and "attacked" as a co-ordinated group.

In my mind, based on a combination of your observations, my own observations and biological studies, it sounds as if mating pairs are the rule with some period of time where the yearlings are tolerated until the next breeding event.

And on occasion and even more exceptional, but certainly possible, situations where coyotes can be found in larger packs of 3 or more animals such as what I saw in Arizona and on the Anderson video.

It is interesting, regardless.

Raptor
 
One scenario that sticks in my head, as hard to believe. Is neighboring territorial non-related coyotes banding together to hunt large prey. Such as deer, ect.

Seeing 1st hand local pr's advancing on a lone tresspasser. Et seeing that tresspasser flee. Leaves me to believe tresspassing overrides, the so-called non-related group hunting & or tolerance.


IMO, if/when non-related territorial groups end up killing/feeding on a large prey kill. I suspect that happens if/when that prey was killed on a [territory buffer overlap/ no-mans land] area. Between neighboring family groups territory. Thus, that may be why alpha pr's will tolerate non-related coyotes. On these outer territorial fringe areas.

Otherwise these neighboring non-related family groups would been seen together interacting more often.

I do believe if/when neighboring family groups do hunt together. Is based mainly upon, that they are related vs non-related.
 
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