Good stuff, Kirby. I'm anticipating that family group to be there again this year.

If so, I'm hoping to get that male. His scat puts his size somewhere in the neighborhood of 40+lbs when comparing it to my own 48lb dog's scat.

Raptor

I must say CR, you made me grin when I read that. Stool diameter is an indicator of animal size? Speaking of size. A coyote's paw print is a more accurate indicator.

Say for the sake of argument. An animal typically pass's 2" diameter stools. Then say that same animal gets bound up for a wk. You suppose that same animal might then pass a mail box, when the dam breaks?

Paw size however doesn't change once a animal has matured. Stool size[diameter] can vary.

BTW, coydog I mentioned previously. It's print was pushing 4" long. I seen that canine a handfull of times over a 7yr span. I [est] it's weight 60-65 lbs. Of course I never did tag him, so who can say what he/she actually weighed.

Speaking of breeding pr's. I've seen & watched local pr's for yrs in a row. They were always on their territory. Like clock work. Could they've tresspassed elsewhere? Maybe so, but I never witnessed them doing so.

A farm yard dog, can typically be found on it's farm yard.

LOL, Kirby. Well, he "patterned" it pretty well for me.

This particular fella had marked every corner of a 4-way firebreak multiple times over a period of days and let EVERYONE know this was his wood and make no mistake about it.

If it had been a one-off I might not have been as confident in guessing an estimated size, but since I had multiple samples in a small given area and knowing my own dogs relative scat output compared to her size, I made an educated guess.

Note I said 40+ - not 45+.

Anyway, you brought up another question with your reply. How accurately can coyote size be determined by footprint? Is it relative to length or width? And what is the range of weight one could deduce from the size of a coyote footprint?

Our sandy soil is great in helping to see the local "traffic" and I do get to see quite a few coyote prints. I'm interested.

Raptor

Related to the family group thing, when they were howling last fall, it sounded like at least like 4-5 individual animals. There is certainly plenty of game to support a larger pack where they are located.

I did call one of them January, just didn't know it until I stood up. I went to move to my next stand and there it was just standing behind me about 15 feet away. My shotgun of course had already been slung.

Razzing ya on poop diameter CR Poop diameter might give a rough guess to size. I just don't believe it is very accurate.

Paw size is more accurate in estimating body size. 3" long coyote paw print, IMO puts that coyote on the large size. Potential 50 lb coyote on a fat day.

Yrs ago I {weighed & measured} some. As in length from chest to rump. As well as top of the shoulder to bottom of the front pad, for example.

24" high shoulder is a large coyote, 40 lbs +

You'll have to excuse my long term memory. Which is crap anymore.

Good shooting

for the most part I agree with Kirby. Usually only the alpha pair will breed. If there is plenty of food. The alpha may breed a beta female. If there is a scarcity of prey. The alpha couple may not breed at all .

Coyotes, DO NOT run in packs. They may appear in some loosely formed family groups until time to kick out the kids.

Poop size can be an indicator of body size only if the dog and the coyote eat exactly the same thing, in exactly the same amount.

A coyote track will typically be somewhat larger than the same weight dog.

The average size coyote in Arizona is 20 to 25 lbs. a 35 pounder is huge, and rare.

All statements are facts.

Dave

Here's another fact, Dave. I've watched coyotes in these small farm land sections in my hunt areas. For over 40yrs. Observing them from the gravel roads. With my binocs & spotter scopes. Last 30yrs I often hunted 16-18 days a month. Which often included hunting daily for wk long stretches most months.

Watching them hunt, play, travel, breed, interact, ect. I suspect a fair amount of people/[experts? included] have a problem with my observations & or opinions. Regardless, opposing opinions do not sway my own experiences in the slightest. But on a very rare occasion. Does a facet of incoming truth change my understanding.

You guys have made me curious about this whole pack thing. I just picked out nuggets from some studies that I stumbled across and make some remarks at the bottom regarding my own thoughts based on coyote vocalizations where I hunt.

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/Behavior/Spring2004/holmberg/Holmberg4.html

"Coyotes which live in northern and western areas of their range display more developed and complex social systems than coyotes found in the southern and eastern areas of their range (Chamberlain et al. 2000).

All coyotes travel and live together either in groups of three or more individuals called packs, as mated pairs, or as solitary individuals, called transients (Andelt 1985; Bekoff & Wells 1980; Chamberlain et al. 2000). The basic unit of a coyote pack is the mated pair. To form a pack the mated pair is accompanied by pack associates who can be genetically related or unrelated individuals (Bekoff & Wells). Coyotes may live in packs because they are able to better defend resources such as food caches or carrion (Bekoff & Wells 1980). In general, more coyotes live in packs, approximately 70%, than coyotes that live as mated pairs, approximately 17%. The other 13% accounts for transient individuals. Packs make up a large percentage of the population because pups will stay with their parents up to one year after birth.

Coordinated group hunting among coyote packs is rare because of their ability to survive on small mammals such as gophers (Bekoff & Wells 1980). Although coyotes have a highly developed solitary hunting method they only make a successful kills 10% to 50% of the time (Bekoff & Wells 1980)."
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http://urbancoyoteresearch.com/Packs.htm

"Although coyotes live in family groups, they usually travel and hunt alone or in loose pairs. In this way they are different from wolves, which leads to the impression that coyotes do not form packs since they are usually seen alone. In addition to resident groups, the urban population also consists of solitary coyotes that have left packs and are looking to join groups or create their own territories. Between one-third and one-half of the coyotes we captured each year were solitary animals. These solitary coyotes can be either males or females and are usually young coyotes (six months to two years old) but can also be older individuals who have left packs. If a coyote is seen running across a field, it is impossible to know if it is a solitary coyote or a member of a pack from that sighting."
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http://www.dnr.state.il.us/orc/wildlife/furbearers/coyote.htm

"An average home range encompasses 2-10 square miles. Members of packs tend to have smaller home ranges than “loners”. Sizes of home ranges are also influenced by the quality of habitat a coyote lives in, presence of nearby packs and seasons of the year – especially when coyotes are breeding or rearing pups.

Home ranges are not exclusive; several coyotes might live in the same area. These groups, referred to as packs, usually consist of extended families. Members of one pack rarely venture into another’s territory. Some coyotes do not belong to packs. These solitary coyotes tend to have larger home ranges than pack coyotes and are less respectful of pack boundaries. They sometimes join a pack when one of the members leaves or dies."
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Now my words again:

Based on studies by various biologists around the country and each of your own observations, it would seem that there are recognisable facts that would make you both correct in most cases, but also incorrect in some cases.

Since it is recognized that most coyotes hunt alone, isn't it possible that your "lone" coyote is part of a mated pair or larger family group (dare we use the term "pack"?)?

While neither of you believe that "packs" exist in coyote biology, biologists consider any family group of 3 or larger a "pack". It is apparent however, that "packs", when they occur, would likely consist of pups or adolescents whose presence is perhaps temporary as they will eventually strike out on their own.

One could argue that if 2 pups stay with the mating pair for 1-2 years, then that 4 coyote family group could legitimately be called a "pack" during such period of time as that family group consists of 4 coyotes.

It seems from all accounts that there is a 50% chance that when you are observing a coyote or have called in a single coyote, it is a much smaller chance that it is a solitary or transient coyote then it being one of a mating pair or family group. It would also seem likely that when 3 or more animals are called in at one time that this is one of those family groups and could correctly from a scientific perspective be called a pack.

Please tell me what you would call a group of 3 or more coyotes observed at one time if not a pack as that is the correct scientific term for such a group of coyotes.

As it seems that at any one time coyotes that you observe could be either a solitary animal, one or both of a mating pair, or one of a family group (pack???) that consists of 3 or more animals, I would hesitate to use the word FACT to express that coyotes do not "pack up" as it would appear a family group of multiple animals meets the scientific definition of a pack, even if it is a temporary condition.

I would hazard an educated guess that in wolf country, coyote "packs" would be more common as a logical defensive and security posture against their larger cousins who would be happy to kill their smaller competition when encountered.

It would be interesting to hear some other opinions on this notion that there are no such things as coyote "packs".

I'm not convinced based on the numbers of animals represented when I hear coyote vocalizations (i.e. greater than 3 animals)locally that they are not happy to exist in some numbers in close proximity to one another and if living in close proximity to one another sharing the same range, prey items, and denning areas, that one would not consider it a "pack".

Let the debate continue..............

Raptor

P.S. to the retired Chief - former USN enlisted here - 1988-1992 PN2 - USS Saratoga CV-60 - Homeport: Mayport, FL. Go Navy!

Dang CR, you must have alot of free time LOL! Lets see now 3 coyotes together = 1/2 of a six pack of course . Naw

What I have done is positively I.D'd mated prs. Observed them on their territory. I estimated territorial "fringes" by observing neighboring breeding prs & their yearlings on their "fringe areas" Which by the way overlap other territorys.

This over lapping is not a very wide distance span. An aerial view of these "territory ranges". Would look like multiple spilled liquids[play along here will ya]on a table top. As they are irregular in shape. These irregular territorys over lap to some extent on the outer edges.

Overlap areas I refer to as {no mans land}. Or a buffer area. Where neighboring coyotes can hunt, bed or other wise travel to & fro. Yearling pups often hang in those overlap areas. Specfically as they near a yr in age.

BTW I have read many of those authors remarks. Most opinions I agree with.

Other than an actual "family group" These other groups are yearlings finding their way or looking for a mate. I call them nomads. As they don't have a true established territory of their own.

I refer to a neighboring coyote that in on another's territory. As a tresspesser.

I'm of the opinion. Whether it be a nomad or a tresspasser, or a nomadic tresspasser coyote. That coyote knows when it is on another coyote's territory. Which makes them most wary. Often looking 360, rather than just looking cross or down-wind. Such as a territorial/local coyote does.

Had a young sprout call BS on me not long ago. How can "I know or tell" one coyote from another? Gee whiz, do I count hairs or what? Uh well no.

Day after day, after day. I zoom in with my spotter & can pick out various coloration markings on most all coyotes. That are on known territorys. I also look at other I.D. physical features. Good grief, it isn't rocket science.

Observe I.D, observe I.D, observe I.D.

I spot/stalk. Hense, that is why I observe.

BTW CR, getting back to estimating body size vs print size. IMO paw print size typically corresponds to body size, not necessarily to weight. As some canines may/tend to be lean, while others may be fat.

Here are a couple "typical" color variations. I've seen very few coyotes over the yrs that "look or appear" like a twin of another coyote.

Sure two coyotes can look like twins/similar from a distance. But close up, or with a good clear view the difference is noticable. I.D'ing one coyote from another is not hard. You only need be observant.

LOL, Kirby. It doesn't take long to cut and paste.

Anytime I hear absolutes stated in regards to any subject, I get nosy. The CPO put my ears up with his capital "DO NOT" statement and these are all "FACTS" statement.

I believe that there are facts both in what you and the Chief have observed over time and also believe that there are other facts observed by biologists and animal behavioralists that not only support what you and the Chief have personally observed, but also add a more rounded picture of coyote behaviour and lifestyle to what you have experienced.

I like learning and the fastest way for me to learn is to open my ears and my brain and research from multiple sources. Just like I don't get my news from one source, I don't take everything I see, hear, or read as the gospel until I've had time to compare, analyze, and research. It has served me well over the years.

I want you to know that I do respect your observations and really enjoy your posts and photos.

And I don't know why anyone would think you can't identify individual animals over time. If Jane Goodall could do it with chimps and biologists can do it with packs of hyenas, of course you can do it with coyotes!

Thanks, Kirby.

Raptor

10-4, CR. You might've read my sig line? I do believe I know & have observed quite abit for a rounded education on Red Fox & the coyotes. But I also know, what I know or think? I know. Is but a speck of sand on the matter. I suspect the same from others.