Failing schools are best shut down.

Quote:The national level is slowly taking hold of education and things have shifted from the local school board to state and federal mandates. In the same process we have seen a downward trend in parenting, and scores.

Yes indeed, and also a simultaneous increase in the power and influence of the union.

The question was whether or not there was a causal relationship, (for which case I believe I've presented pretty compelling evidence) and what the possible solution might be.



Quote:It is all too complex for anyone of us to solve here on PM. At that I will continue to work a job in which I am under paid and under valued, in hopes that I can find one student whose life is better from my efforts.

I disagree that it is too complex for those of us here. In the end it WILL be those of us here and millions more like us who will do the deciding.

I do empathize with you on the pay though. I have worked54 of the last 66 hours and will be paid for only 36 of them. Believe me, I know what it's like to be underpaid.

Do indeed keep trying to influence those students. My life was influenced a great deal by several very fine teachers when I was in school. To this day I remember Mrs Gundacker, Mrs Smitherman, Mr Cole, and a couple of others with respect and fondness.

Teachers CAN make a difference in children's lives, it's just a shame the system has made it more and more unlikely that that will happen with as much frequency as in did in the past.




Quote:As far as summer jobs, it is not a matter of skill, but how many high paying jobs are there for temporary employees?

When I was a building contractor I used to look forward to summer vacation just because there would be teachers looking for temporary work. I had a couple of "regulars" that are still good friends of mine.

When I was a Master Trainer for Covenant Transport, I trained several teachers whose plan was to get over the road driving jobs during the summer, a not too unusual occurrence.
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonQuote:Quote:Wow Leon, you really outdid yourself with the cut and paste and taking quotes out of context.

How's that for starters?


Uh...I'm not sure...just what exactly you were trying to start there jeffo???

The quotes and links were to show that tenure and unionism made it harder to fire teachers. The Time article was devoted to that premise, and the Education World article showed even teachers more or less agreeing with the premise.

Certainly seems well within the context to me.






I think you left out some stuff I quoted. You are the master twister.
 
Okay jeffo, here's the stuff you quoted in it's entirety (and I never want to hear another complaint about cutting and pasting).

Quote:Quote:Quote:This "can't be fired" thing is a myth. Actually, so is tenure by its definition. Every contract that I've ever heard of defines a process to get rid of bad teachers, or good teachers who do something bad. It's called "just cause", or, more commonly, simply "cause". It's universal. You can google it to find out more. What it requires is for administration to do their job of documenting and supplying proof.

Quote:Wow Leon, you really outdid yourself with the cut and paste and taking quotes out of context.

From your post:

"Here's an article in Time on tenure from a while back."

This is from Education World: ..."first I asked, “Is it possible to fire a bad teacher who has tenure?” The answer was a rousing and unanimous “Yes!” It’s harder, I was told, to fire a tenured teacher than a non-tenured teacher, but it certainly is possible."


Here are some other quotes from that same article.

"Next, I asked, “Is the real reason that bad teachers remain in the classroom the unwillingness of administrators to take on the admittedly arduous and publicly risky task of documenting and acting upon a teacher's failure?” The response again was ... “Yes!”

"...there are very few hopelessly 'bad' tenured teachers in our classrooms. Most bad teachers don't remain in the classroom long enough to become tenured; they move on to other fields -- or to other areas of education -- where they can be successful."


"...there are very few truly 'bad' teachers."


"If a teacher has remained in the classroom long enough to be granted tenure, the chances are that that teacher wants to teach, and wants to teach successfully."


"... no one wants to get rid of bad teachers more than good teachers..."

"First I asked, “Is it possible to fire a bad teacher who has tenure?” "Clearly, I had approached the issue from the wrong angle."


How's that for starters?



Read the article again jeffo. You seem to have some problems with reading comprehension.


First the explanation of the premise:

I took an informal poll among the teachers I know. First I asked, “Is it possible to fire a bad teacher who has tenure?” The answer was a rousing and unanimous “Yes!” It’s harder, I was told, to fire a tenured teacher than a non-tenured teacher, but it certainly is possible. Next, I asked, “Is the real reason that bad teachers remain in the classroom the unwillingness of administrators to take on the admittedly arduous and publicly risky task of documenting and acting upon a teacher's failure?” The response again was -- a slightly more guarded -- “Yes!” But it was not quite unanimous.




And as qualification, the one "not quite unanimous" person then expounds on how there aren't really any bad teachers, some of them are just misunderstood.

In the end he says "What too many of us fail to recognize, however, is that the way to get rid of bad teachers is not to fire them. It’s to help them become good teachers.”

Kind of proves the point doesn't it jeffo?

Even among teachers in an Education World article there is majority agreement that (mythological) tenure makes firing teachers more difficult, and the one (1) teacher in disagreement doesn't actually disagree that tenure makes them more difficult to fire, he disagrees that they should be fired at all.
Click to expand...
 
"You seem to have some problems with reading comprehension."


I comprehend ok. Probably above average. I can't slant things as well as some though.

"And as qualification, the one "not quite unanimous" person then expounds on how there aren't really any bad teachers, some of them are just misunderstood."

Misunderstood? Wasn't in the article. That was your (mis)interpretation.


This was:
"First of all," my friend finally said, "contrary to popular opinion, there are very few hopelessly 'bad' tenured teachers in our classrooms.

Kind of proves a point.
 
Back
Top