1/4 Inch Groups

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do we measure center to center or outside to outside?

Ruben,Measure outside to outside.Then subtract bullet diameter.

Let's say you're shooting a 223 & after firing a 5-shot group you measure with your caliper's & the measurement is .724..deduct .224 you would have a 1/2" or .5 group.
 
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[There is only one accepted way to measure a group, and Grizzly explained it perfectly.




Just for the sake of being clear and accurate, no, actually, he did not explain it correctly. The method he described very frequently results in reporting a group size smaller than it actually is. The smaller the group, the larger the error.

I see it almost constantly on here, groups measured incorrectly (and reported as smaller than they actually are), using that method.

He did get the center to center part right. But simply subtracting bullet diameter from outside to outside usually ends up wrong. Paper stretches. Some paper stretches a heckuva lot. Bullet holes are very often smaller than bullet diameter. In such an instance (which is the majority of the time), you need to measure a bullet hole, and subtract THAT from outside to outside. I've seen target paper that stretches so much, the bullet holes are really quite a bit smaller than bullet diameter. Some of the more expensive, nicer target tag is among the worst for this. Plain old cheap copy paper often has holes very close to full bullet diameter though.

- DAA
 
P.S... If the widest shots in your group have separate, distinct holes, just measure inside to outside and it automatically removes the error caused by paper stretch.

Can't do that with good groups though.

- DAA
 
I once showed a group that I was really proud of to an old bench shooter and his comment was " You can have a flier INTO the group, too!"
 
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O.K. lets clear something up first, do we measure center to center or outside to outside? First we all need to agree on one or the other! This sounds like a challenge to me and my factory Savage!



If you have to ask how to measure groups its not likely you can shoot sub .250" groups. Just a thought.
 
You just have to take everything with a grain of salt. As for me I know what I can do and it is not what most people claim they can do. I have a buddy that was telling me that he was shooting these unbelievable groups and I have shot with him and know that he is not even getting close to what he claims. Everyone that owns a rifle is usually proud of it and if it shot a 1/4 inch group once they think it does it every time. I have a gun that I shot a quarter inch group with it on the second group after sighting it in and I put the gun up and have not checked the group since and in my mind I tell my self it is a 1/4 inch gun. I believe that once a person shoots a small group they stop shooting and brand it as all day long. I know in the back of my mind that it is not and it was just a fluke, but it sure makes me happy for a moment when I think just maybe it is. Truth be known it took me 15 years of going shooting before I could produce a 1/2 inch group, I don't even believe that most people on here could shoot that good even if you gave them a benchrest rifle.
 
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...it took me 15 years of going shooting before I could produce a 1/2 inch group, I don't even believe that most people on here could shoot that good even if you gave them a benchrest rifle.



I believe that nearly every guy (and gal and children too for that matter) on this board could very, very easily print a group under 1/2" with a benchrest rifle (in good conditions).

I have on many occasions had people sit down behind my most accurate rifle (a genuine 1/4 minute rifle) and immediately shoot the best group of their lives. Better than they thought they were capable of. In fact, I have had three separate people, who had NEVER even fired a gun before in their lives, sit down behind that rig and shoot groups under 1/2" with the first five shots fired in their life. My baby sister shot a .325 group, first five shots she ever took in her life, with that rifle.

Until a guy sits down and shoots a few groups with a really accurate rifle, in good conditions, he has a hard time understanding what a truly accurate rifle really even is.

- DAA
 
I agree with DAA last post.
I took a youg guy out that i met on another site last spring. He shoots mostly shotguns and a 22 l.r. and has never shot any center fire rifles as far as i know let alone at a 100 yd target.
I took him out to my target range and set him up with the 17 Pred. and a target set up at 500 yds. I dialed in the elavation for him on my BDC dial and then let him shoot five shots for group and then crossed my fingers..LOL
Here is a pic. of him and the target at 500 yds.
IMG_1471.jpg

IMG_1474.jpg
 
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I agree with DAA last post.
I took a youg guy out that i met on another site last spring. He shoots mostly shotguns and a 22 l.r. and has never shot any center fire rifles as far as i know let alone at a 100 yd target.
I took him out to my target range and set him up with the 17 Pred. and a target set up at 500 yds. I dialed in the elavation for him on my BDC dial and then let him shoot five shots for group and then crossed my fingers..LOL
Here is a pic. of him and the target at 500 yds.
IMG_1471.jpg

IMG_1474.jpg






So you guys are shooting these groups with $400 out of the box rifles?? I am pretty sure that is what the premise of the thread was about. I doubt that you are.

No one is questioning what can be done with a custom rifle. Even a custom rifle with a novice shooter. However that is not what we were talking about, nor what the thread was about.

I have shot incredible groups at 1,000 yards with some one elses BR rifle. But the rifle was not out of the box. Tom.
 
DAA and I where replying to this remark.
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...it took me 15 years of going shooting before I could produce a 1/2 inch group, I don't even believe that most people on here could shoot that good even if you gave them a benchrest rifle.



I also have a factory rifle that will shoot just as good of a group at 500 yds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
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DAA and I where replying to this remark.
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...it took me 15 years of going shooting before I could produce a 1/2 inch group, I don't even believe that most people on here could shoot that good even if you gave them a benchrest rifle.



I also have a factory rifle that will shoot just as good of a group at 500 yds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif




I see your point. Sorry, Tom.
 
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The winning agg was .486 in the Varmint for score division with targets shot at 100 and 200.
It was windy and cold, and far from ideal shooting conditions.



I'd bet there were quite a few groups that would have qualified as 1/4 moa in that agg under ideal conditions.

I have never had an out-of-the-box rifle that was that accurate, but if you count a floated/bedded/lug-lapped/trigger-worked gun as still being factory, I do have a couple of 1/4" "factory" rifles. That is of course the rifle (and under ideal conditions, including ammo), and not the shooter, as Old Turtle mentioned in his post.
 
I regularly shoot 4-5" groups at 830 yards, to date I have shot 2 groups of less than 1/4" (.243, .246) and a few of .26 or a hair bigger at 100 yards, so I call BS on the outta da box 1/4" groups, the real clincher on the BS deal are the words "all day long".
RR
 
What alot of people fail to relize is there are alot of factory guns cable of shooting some very tight groups the loads just have to be tuned for that particular rifle..
Some guys like the plastic tip bullets for example and thats all they will try or they are stuck on a certain brand or type of powder.
Another example is my gunsmith. He gets customers that come in every month that have a rifle and claims it won't shoot worth a dam so they want to rebarrel it.. The first question my smith asks is what bullet are you useing? They reply with oh its a 50 gr. Ballistic tip. The Smith then asks have you tried any our brand or weights of bullets and the reply is No. Some people get it stuck in there head they need to use this bullet cause so and so has said it works well in his gun or works well on fur so thats all they are going to use..
 
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the real clincher on the BS deal are the words "all day long".
RR



Geeeze, you're taking all the fun out of it. Can we use "biggest part of the day" then? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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