Win 760 and H414 the same?

Aznative

New member
I don't believe it was always this way, but with corporate mergers taking place daily and Winchester shuting down US operations, it was probably inevitable that someone like Hodgdon would take the Winchester product line and incorporate it into their very own products and market the same thing under different names. The reason I'm saying this is I just noticed on Hodgdon's Reloading site that they list the same exact information for H414 and Win 760. The same starting load, the same max load, the same velocities, and the same pressures. I checked three different loadings under 308 and 3006 before coming to this conclusion. While not the most complete reference work I've done, It sure looks fishy. I'm posting this on several of my favorite forums so as to get the word out that you need to look at what you have on your bench already before investing into a powder that you might already have. Also, I have some 760 and H414 that is probably 10 years old. I wouldn't assume it is the same stuff that is made today.

Here is the link so you can check this out four yourself:

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Your opinions are welcome.
 
It's hard to tell about stuff like that. I'd just call the powder company and ask them. In .243AI, one gun likes 414 and the other one shoots better with 760. Go figure. But also these loads were developed about 12 and 15-16yrs ago. Also when comparing numbers in a reloading manual, there can be two powders that look the same in one cartridge with one bullet weight, but in another cartridge the charge weights will vary. Go figure. I've spent lots of time comparing numbers in reloading books and come to the conclusion that it can drive you nuts......to really find out you just have to try things.
 
Winchester always made the ball powders for Hodgden, so they were always similar if not the same, but I would not substitute one for the other.
 
My go to powder in the 22/250 AI and the 243 AI has always been the Win 760 with the 55g and 70g bullets respectively.

I tried the H414 and it took a little more powder to get the load up to warp speed of the 760.

AA2700 loads can also be substituted for Win 760 loads with same accuracy in the custom guns that I have, but with a tinsy winsy more pressure.

No matter what loading data you read, you have to adjust it to your own gun and how it builds pressure.

Anytime that I see that someone is substituting one powder for another, it scares me because I fear that they may get in the mind set of just not thinking and throwing caution to the wind.

Lot to lot variations can vary a little in the same powder type, when you start throwing in a different powder type, it is easy to get a 10% pressure swing of which you need to be aware of.
 
Its my understanding from Hogdon that H414 was developed for the military as a cool burning powder. "Later in Life" 760 and 414 may have "merged" but I would have strong doubts about it..........George
 
Don't worry anyone, I just don't substitute powders. I always check the appropiate data for all new loadings I attempt. Thanks for the concern. I also don't believe the 760 and 414 that I have in my loading room are the same but they are at least 12 years old. Since I posted the thread, I went back and checked the 30/06 and 25*06 loading info and again they are both exactly alike. Both powders drop off the chart on the 25/06 above 100 gn bullet weight. I checked to see if 748 had any clones but couldn't find any. If a powder company was to merge two products into one and if these powders were a little different say 1 or 2 gns or less, the powder company would have to go with the load data for powder that requires the least amount of powder in order to be safe. I'm going to check some of my older manuals that I have around here to see if they show the two to be the same.
 
Since Smokeless is all blended, I would not assume that any ten year old powder is the same as what is made today. Also, since powders are blended for the aproxamate burn rate and pressure curve it is very likely that powders from two companies are so simaler as to be identical. Anyother close match is H-110 and WW 296.
 
Quote:
They are the same.
Also, H110=W-296=WC-820
and, H-335=W-748=BL-C(2)

Martyn



I don't care what you have heard or read, I have loaded a lot of H335, W748, and BLC2 and they are definitely NOT the same.

Different velocities, different fouling, and different muzzle blasts.

That response is another example of why you should take internet reloading posts with a grain of salt.
 
In my Lyman 47th edition reloading manual, it shows different charge weights, pressures, and velocities for these two powders. My 45th edition doesn't show H414 at all. What I'm saying is today on Hodgdon's online reloading database, it gives the same starting load charge weight, the same max load charge weight, the same velocities, and the same pressures for these two powders. With this current documentation straight from the manufacturer, the load data is exactly the same. Warning: I didn't check every caliber and weight bullet, but I did check three different bullet weights for the four above listed calibers. I do suggest that everyone should check for themselves what the current data says before trying any new loads. Especially if you like your eyes.
What I am suggesting is if you aren't happy with one of these powders, I wouldn't try the other one because they are too similar if not exactly the same. I would move on towards something a little faster (e.g., 2520) or slower(e.g., reloader 19), whichever direction I thought would produce better results.
 
Quote:
They are the same.
Also, H110=W-296=WC-820
and, H-335=W-748=BL-C(2)

Martyn



H110 is Win 295, grant you it's close, but the 44 mags that I shot, for sure would like one over the other.

Martyn is right that 335, 748, and BL-c(2) are close I just never take it for granted, but I work up a load for each on independently of the other. Most ball powder loads in my guns are extremely close to a Max load for that rifle (not what the book says is max). For that reason, when ever I go from one 8 lb'er to another 8 lb'er, I will always back off a little and work up a new load. Just going from one lot# to another of the same powder type can cause you to add or drop the powder charge a little, must less changing powder types.

The 22/250 AI's that I shot preferred the 760 over the h414, could have just been the variations in lot#.

I have shot a lot of suplus powders over the years and referencing powders as Martyn has done is a really great starting place to begin load development. Also when creating wild cats where you have a gut feeling about certain powders that will work in a cartridge, we tend to "clump" powders together in a particular burning rate that are very close.
 
Boy, this post has gone down hill quickly. Most ball powders in use in the USA over the last several decades was and is made by the same company. Saint Marks Powder Company. They are a part of General Dynamics and are still running strong. The story is pretty simple, they make the powder and sell to Winchester, Hodgdon, plus many others. These companies in turn will re-pack and standardize the powder as canister and put it onto the consumer market. While many of these powders will have nearly the same burn characteristics they can very well vary in deterrent coatings or even basic chemistry. Oh yes, and don't forget normal lot to lot variance. If you have a big enough check book, SMP will sell directly to you. They will even do custom blending if you are in the need for 250 tons or so.
John
 
Quote:
Quote:
They are the same.
Also, H110=W-296=WC-820
and, H-335=W-748=BL-C(2)

Martyn



I don't care what you have heard or read, I have loaded a lot of H335, W748, and BLC2 and they are definitely NOT the same.

Different velocities, different fouling, and different muzzle blasts.

That response is another example of why you should take internet reloading posts with a grain of salt.



Ditto's on that bro!
 
in the free hodgdon loading manual I picked up this winter..... where h414 and w760 are both listed....for the same bullet....
all the loads for all calibers list exactly the same data for win 760 and h414....... charge wts and velocity

I have "heard" for years that H414 and w760 were the same powder packaged as h414 by hodgdon and w 760 by winchester....

when winchester quit selling w 540 and w 571 shotgun powders.... hodgdon acknowledged that they were exactly the same powders as hs6 and hs7 and always had been....


R
 
Maybe I'm just paranoid but I alway drop back and work up even if I'm using the same powder.

A few years ago I got some RL22. I'd used it several times in my 8MM Remington Mag. Well I almost didn't follow good reloading proceedure. But at the last moment I decided to do it right. I dropped back two full grains and starting loading.

When I got to the range I set up the chrongraph and started shooting my first load 2 grains under Max was giving me just over my old Max loads MV. I didn't make it to the Max loads that day.

A couple of weeks later I was reading about the "HOT" lot of RL22. That why even with the same powders you should never leave your good reloading practices.

But they are your hands, eyes and life.
 
I called hodgdon's in Kansas this afternoon...
he said Win 760 and Hodgdons H414

"are the same product and always have been"

R
 
Quote:
I called hodgdon's in Kansas this afternoon...
he said Win 760 and Hodgdons H414

"are the same product and always have been"

R



That's the only thing that I would trust. Straight from the manufacturer. Not just the fact that the data in reloading manuals are identical.

There may be certain marketing reasons why they would not admit to one powder being the same as another. Since they have purchased most of the powder manufacturing/licensing agreements in the USA, I would hope that they will begin consolidating.

Thanks for checking. Did you happen to ask about H335/BLC2/W748? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Back
Top