Super yoter issues

For my 2 cents if I was checking a scope for repeatability I would be totally bagged up front and rear on a proper and solid shooting bench with warm fingers and light to no wind. I realize POI can be different from bags to tripod but you need to know if the scope is shifting and the only way to find that out is to make sure the gun is dead nuts solid. One question I have to those that might know. How does a thermal scope deal with parallax?
 
Same amount of parallax as a tv screen I would guess.
My test are done in such a manner that they are good for occasional five shot .5" center to center groups with AR's. Five under an inch is acceptable. Hard to have perfect test conditions with no wind on the night you are hunting in varying temps to test poi.
We aren't talking a little cant or different cheek pressure here.
 
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I might have something going on with mine but I can’t be sure yet. If I do it is a matter of an inch to half inch difference at 100 yards at this point. . I was reluctant to even say anything cause I truly am not sure yet because I’m not the best shot and haven’t gone nuts testing it. There are a couple things that have not made sense to me when shooting it without adjusting anything on the scope or taking it off the rifle since first sight in. I’ve been taking some pictures of my targets so in time I should be able to say if it’s actually moving. One thing I want to try is what DU had suggested and only sight it in when sun is down. I use half a hand warmer to sight in and I understand that it may bloom. Not sure if sun has anything to do with that but I think I am gonna try it. I really don’t know but there have been differences in poi since I first sighted it in. This is without me eliminating a lot of variables so I’m not swearing to anything yet.
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223So when it nukes it can move a pixel or two.....what if it moves to a pixel or set of pixels that it is on when the scope makes big moves when adjusting????I moved this to your thread as 204 requested his thread not be hijacked by other questions.

I am not sure what you by what if it moves to a pixel or set of pixels it is when the scope makes big moves, please clarify.

If you are referring to trying to move the SY a small adjustment (under digital zoom) and it makes a larger move, I have mentioned previously that I have heard nothing official from Bering. I have had a few people report they believe it might be happening. For those people, when I suggest they try it at 1x (.54"), it seems they have no more issues. If this is a problem with the SY, Bering will either need to address or go back to what they did with the SH, and only allow 1x adjustments.

As far as the NUC causing potential shifts or minor changes to zero, I am not a thermal engineer. From everything I have read as well as been told by thermal company representatives, they have to. We can go back to what many of us learned who went through the Pulsar Trail issues, the software was not correctly adjusting to temp changes. This is part of what happens in the NUC process.

When I test thermals, one of the two things I test in regards to NUC are:
1) Changes to POI on NUC
2) Temperature POI Impact

Changes to POI on NUC: I shoot a group, and NUC the scope, and shoot another group, I then NUC the scope two more times in a row, and shoot a group. I would consider anything under 1" to be very acceptable in this test. I have seen thermals shift way more than this. The scope is doing a lot of things when you NUC, so you want to make sure when a scope NUCs, your accuracy isn't impacted in a major way.

Temperature POI Impact: When I test a thermal for temperature changes, I shoot a group, and then wrap a flexible icepack around the scope for 15 minutes and shoot another group. This is a very difficult test on a thermal. Many thermal manufacturers would say this isn't a fair test. However, I want to be as sure as possible temp won't cause changes.

Think about what we do as coyote hunters. Many of us have the guns in a heated truck, and then go out in subzero temps. We expect the thermals to adjust properly with these huge temperature swings. This is why I run this test. I believe Pulsar still states in their manuals they recommend zeroing the gun in the same temp as you plan to hunt. They also warn to keep it in that temp for a period of time before zeroing or hunting. This would be tough to do for most coyote hunters. I bring this up to illustrate how important temp is to a thermal scope and how critical it is the NUC process adjusts with temperature changes to keep your accuracy as precise as possible.

With each of these tests, if the scope is functioning as I expect, there should be minimal changes to groups. If something moves less than an 1" with any of these tests, I consider that excellent.

Originally Posted By: varminter .223I've also heard thermions aren't having a shift issue.
It's hard to wade through all the internet bs Not sure if you are implying, I am providing internet BS or not. I would hope people on this forum would know by now that I tell it like it is (good and bad) to the best of my ability. I have asked Pulsar to provide a Thermion for me to test and then I could at least state if that unit passed my NUC testing. I can tell you the SY passed my test. Is it possible there are other SYs that wouldn't pass my test, absolutely as there could be Trijicons, Nvisions, Pulsars, etc. Just because a person is having an issue with a thermal, does not mean everyone will or that they are not experiencing it because they haven't tested it enough.

For people who are having issues with their thermals, contact the dealer you bought it from. See if they have any suggestions as the many suggestions, I have tried to provide on this forum. If there is an issue that can't be easily remedied, then the manufacturer may need to get involved. If you don't have a dealer, then go directly to the manufacturer.
 
Originally Posted By: KirschOriginally Posted By: varminter .223So when it nukes it can move a pixel or two.....what if it moves to a pixel or set of pixels that it is on when the scope makes big moves when adjusting????I moved this to your thread as 204 requested his thread not be hijacked by other questions.

I am not sure what you by what if it moves to a pixel or set of pixels it is when the scope makes big moves, please clarify.

If you are referring to trying to move the SY a small adjustment (under digital zoom) and it makes a larger move, I have mentioned previously that I have heard nothing official from Bering. I have had a few people report they believe it might be happening. For those people, when I suggest they try it at 1x (.54"), it seems they have no more issues. If this is a problem with the SY, Bering will either need to address or go back to what they did with the SH, and only allow 1x adjustments.

As far as the NUC causing potential shifts or minor changes to zero, I am not a thermal engineer. From everything I have read as well as been told by thermal company representatives, they have to. We can go back to what many of us learned who went through the Pulsar Trail issues, the software was not correctly adjusting to temp changes. This is part of what happens in the NUC process.

When I test thermals, one of the two things I test in regards to NUC are:
1) Changes to POI on NUC
2) Temperature POI Impact

Changes to POI on NUC: I shoot a group, and NUC the scope, and shoot another group, I then NUC the scope two more times in a row, and shoot a group. I would consider anything under 1" to be very acceptable in this test. I have seen thermals shift way more than this. The scope is doing a lot of things when you NUC, so you want to make sure when a scope NUCs, your accuracy isn't impacted in a major way.

Temperature POI Impact: When I test a thermal for temperature changes, I shoot a group, and then wrap a flexible icepack around the scope for 15 minutes and shoot another group. This is a very difficult test on a thermal. Many thermal manufacturers would say this isn't a fair test. However, I want to be as sure as possible temp won't cause changes.

Think about what we do as coyote hunters. Many of us have the guns in a heated truck, and then go out in subzero temps. We expect the thermals to adjust properly with these huge temperature swings. This is why I run this test. I believe Pulsar still states in their manuals they recommend zeroing the gun in the same temp as you plan to hunt. They also warn to keep it in that temp for a period of time before zeroing or hunting. This would be tough to do for most coyote hunters. I bring this up to illustrate how important temp is to a thermal scope and how critical it is the NUC process adjusts with temperature changes to keep your accuracy as precise as possible.

With each of these tests, if the scope is functioning as I expect, there should be minimal changes to groups. If something moves less than an 1" with any of these tests, I consider that excellent.

Originally Posted By: varminter .223I've also heard thermions aren't having a shift issue.
It's hard to wade through all the internet bs Not sure if you are implying, I am providing internet BS or not. I would hope people on this forum would know by now that I tell it like it is (good and bad) to the best of my ability. I have asked Pulsar to provide a Thermion for me to test and then I could at least state if that unit passed my NUC testing. I can tell you the SY passed my test. Is it possible there are other SYs that wouldn't pass my test, absolutely as there could be Trijicons, Nvisions, Pulsars, etc. Just because a person is having an issue with a thermal, does not mean everyone will or that they are not experiencing it because they haven't tested it enough.

For people who are having issues with their thermals, contact the dealer you bought it from. See if they have any suggestions as the many suggestions, I have tried to provide on this forum. If there is an issue that can't be easily remedied, then the manufacturer may need to get involved. If you don't have a dealer, then go directly to the manufacturer.


Many parts of this need to be in a sticky.
 
Originally Posted By: KirschOriginally Posted By: varminter .223So when it nukes it can move a pixel or two.....what if it moves to a pixel or set of pixels that it is on when the scope makes big moves when adjusting????I moved this to your thread as 204 requested his thread not be hijacked by other questions.

I am not sure what you by what if it moves to a pixel or set of pixels it is when the scope makes big moves, please clarify.

If you are referring to trying to move the SY a small adjustment (under digital zoom) and it makes a larger move, I have mentioned previously that I have heard nothing official from Bering. I have had a few people report they believe it might be happening. For those people, when I suggest they try it at 1x (.54"), it seems they have no more issues. If this is a problem with the SY, Bering will either need to address or go back to what they did with the SH, and only allow 1x adjustments.

As far as the NUC causing potential shifts or minor changes to zero, I am not a thermal engineer. From everything I have read as well as been told by thermal company representatives, they have to. We can go back to what many of us learned who went through the Pulsar Trail issues, the software was not correctly adjusting to temp changes. This is part of what happens in the NUC process.

When I test thermals, one of the two things I test in regards to NUC are:
1) Changes to POI on NUC
2) Temperature POI Impact

Changes to POI on NUC: I shoot a group, and NUC the scope, and shoot another group, I then NUC the scope two more times in a row, and shoot a group. I would consider anything under 1" to be very acceptable in this test. I have seen thermals shift way more than this. The scope is doing a lot of things when you NUC, so you want to make sure when a scope NUCs, your accuracy isn't impacted in a major way.

Temperature POI Impact: When I test a thermal for temperature changes, I shoot a group, and then wrap a flexible icepack around the scope for 15 minutes and shoot another group. This is a very difficult test on a thermal. Many thermal manufacturers would say this isn't a fair test. However, I want to be as sure as possible temp won't cause changes.

Think about what we do as coyote hunters. Many of us have the guns in a heated truck, and then go out in subzero temps. We expect the thermals to adjust properly with these huge temperature swings. This is why I run this test. I believe Pulsar still states in their manuals they recommend zeroing the gun in the same temp as you plan to hunt. They also warn to keep it in that temp for a period of time before zeroing or hunting. This would be tough to do for most coyote hunters. I bring this up to illustrate how important temp is to a thermal scope and how critical it is the NUC process adjusts with temperature changes to keep your accuracy as precise as possible.

With each of these tests, if the scope is functioning as I expect, there should be minimal changes to groups. If something moves less than an 1" with any of these tests, I consider that excellent.

Originally Posted By: varminter .223I've also heard thermions aren't having a shift issue.
It's hard to wade through all the internet bs Not sure if you are implying, I am providing internet BS or not. I would hope people on this forum would know by now that I tell it like it is (good and bad) to the best of my ability. I have asked Pulsar to provide a Thermion for me to test and then I could at least state if that unit passed my NUC testing. I can tell you the SY passed my test. Is it possible there are other SYs that wouldn't pass my test, absolutely as there could be Trijicons, Nvisions, Pulsars, etc. Just because a person is having an issue with a thermal, does not mean everyone will or that they are not experiencing it because they haven't tested it enough.

For people who are having issues with their thermals, contact the dealer you bought it from. See if they have any suggestions as the many suggestions, I have tried to provide on this forum. If there is an issue that can't be easily remedied, then the manufacturer may need to get involved. If you don't have a dealer, then go directly to the manufacturer.

First off I would like to clarify by internet BS I am referring information from Joe Blow coyote hunter in general. Ten people could say their Thermions don't shift poi but the might not even test it or they might not want to admit it etc. I'm not referring to you as I feel you provide a great service to everyone here.

As far as shifting to a set of pixels that the poi makes big jumps on.....Im referring to the fact that my Yoter will adjust and track as it should on some coordinates and some it will move 1.5" ish per base power click.
I wish I could post pics. I sent detailed group pics label with the coordinates they were shot at.

When I zeroed after getting the unit back from Bering I only used base power adjustments. My group was just left of the handwarmer and it needed to move right an inch. I gave it two clicks which would be a 1.08 negative adjustment. My poi was now 2.5 to 3 inches more right than the previous group. My only base power option was a .54" back left which put me maybe 3/8" high and right of the handwarmer center. Both of those adjustments were over double what the should have been. If a nuc cause the reticle to shift pixels what happen when they move to the pixels that created the big movements with 1 base power click?

This zero stayed good for a couple test sessions both at handwarmes and small foil squares.
Then the next time it was an inch higher.
The next time an inch lower than the original zero that held for a while which was close to 2" under the high group.

Straight out of the house it was even lower and an inch more right.
 
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I have commented on various things that can cause minor changes in POI. I mentioned NUCing and we seem to be diving down into this topic. Although I work with many thermal brands and manufacturers, I don't have the details on how different manufacturer's NUC algorithms work, and I'm assuming there would be some NDA violation if somehow, I did have this information and disclosed it.

I was in your position and gave the scope manufacturer one chance to fix it. When my replacement still had issues, I chose to move brands and my problems went away. Some of my tests included trying it on a different gun, as well as testing with a glass scope, and lastly, I had a very talented shooter use my equipment to make sure it wasn't me. This is what I did to know 100% the problem was the scope or scope mount. On various forums as well as to Night Goggles customers, this is some of the same guidance I give to anyone having POI issues with any scope and any brand. Many times, people find out the problem wasn't the scope but sometimes it is.

A number of us on this forum have tried to help by offering suggestions. If you have tested the scope and are 100% certain the problem is the scope or scope mounts, it seems you are at a point similar to your Pulsars in the past. You will need to send it back to Bering again or contact the dealer you bought it from and look for either a refund or a move towards a different brand of scope. If you purchased it from Night Goggles, please PM me and we will figure out next steps.
 
After returning 6 or so thermal scopes to manufacturers and having then verify that an issue did exist on top of the expense of hundreds upon hundreds of rounds of ammo, and the countless number of handwarmer and hours spent testing a guy kinda starts to wonder if a solution exists. Not to mention a handful of digital nv units that have failed and all of the issues with thermal poi shift the people I hunt with have had.
Honestly now that I think about I'm not sure of anyone that has a solid dependable unit except for 1 guy with a Trijicon.
I just want to know what I have got to do or spend to have a dependable unit that will kill coyotes out to 300 yards if I do my part. From what I seem to read here I thought the yoter would do that. Mine will not. I guess I need to send it back yet again.

I really wish In knew how to post pics it sure would make describing issues easier.

When you call bering you call Texas you send the scope to California for repairs and sounded to me like when they have an issue they put a new objective lens in it and send it back. Noone I have spoken with a Bering seems to know much about the scope details or have an answer and they have not returned my call with an answer like they said they would.
I feel like baseball sized poi is not acceptable for coyote hunting.
 
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Pics are easy. Set up an imgur.com account, plug your phone in and upload images. Click the image on imgur and it will bring up some options. click bbcode then paste in your post here.
 
Posting up this pic for V223, he'll be along to narrate.

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Okay 204 posted my pic. Thanks!

Somewhere I have a text with the actual coordinates these 2 shot groups were shot at but I can't find it

The red group was shot 1st.
I gave the scope 1 base power click up and left and shot the purple.
Gave it one more click left and shot the green.
Came back to the right to the coordinates the purple was shot at and shot the yellow.
It did this before sending it in and still does it on certain adjustments.
 
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Adjustment one (purple), and three (yellow) look about perfect. What caused the green, we would all guessing? I slight pull, the breeze, or it could be the scope. The yellow looks pretty dang good to me and should kill coyotes all day long. V233, you may be doing this, but I recommend a person write down the coordinates on every adjustment. It is very easy to move it two or three adjustments by accident. If a person holds down the button too long, it actually jumps 10 pixels at a time. This easy very easy to do, and another reason to write down the settings.
 
The group moved because the reticle moved that much with a base power click of .54
What happens in a nuc when it shift to these pixels. Does poi shift that much because it's about the shift I'm seeing.
Pulling shots that still group under .5" lol no.
I'm not even sure how it would be possible to pull a shot off of a rest that bad

The 2 middle groups would be great if it would have stayed.
It actually switched coordinates on me without me adjusting.

I went to G2 and resighted in. Once again zero does not hold and tracks funky.

I'm getting. 3" shift area if you include out of house temp.
2" if you only include outside temps.
 
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Originally Posted By: varminter .223The 2 middle groups would be great if it would have stayed. It actually switched coordinates on me without me adjusting. I have one follow up question. By the statement above are saying the horizontal and vertical values saved in the scope changed without you doing anything, or are you saying the POI shifted without you making any changes? This is a big difference.
 
G1 profile tracked odd and changed coordinates once. I put the coordinates back and zero was back on.
I switched to g2 profile per Bering's advice and the coordinates have not changed but it still tracks outta whack and could be an inch or more under handwarmer or an inch or so over creating a 3 " verticle variance. Only time it was low enough to open spread to 3" was only out of house maybe a minute or 2. I believe I had the scope on sleep mode for a few minute before taking out of house.
After that I let the gun out in cool temps and it shift to the 10'clock position pushing 2" from the out of house temp group..
Next day back an inch over the handwarmer.
One day over the handwarmer and next time under for 2 to 3" verticals spread.

I sent 204 a couple pics he will post when he gets a chance. They pretty much tell the story.
 
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Varminter it looks to me like you have a very capable rifle and from what I've read on this you are doing everything right and are a competent marksman so no need for excuses from people on the scope shifting and the click values not being correct.

I've had my Super Yoter longer than most anyone here and I would guess has been used more as well since I'm retired. I'm EXTREMELY cautious about handling and transporting my rifles and my Yoter DID shift vertical about an inch and a half above my original zero on one zero profile for my Sierra load. I noticed it by missing/crippling coyotes so i took it to the range and it was off. My Nosler profile was a click off which is acceptable IMO.

One thing that is for sure on my Yoter is the click values are NOT TRUE. Its supposed to be .54 but mine definitely moves more. I honestly am not to torn up about it as long as it's consistent and I can get zeroed.

I don't have the time or the extra bullets/brass/powder to thoroughly test these thermals and as long as I am "minute of coyote" I'll spend my ammo and time on fur.

Maybe this spring if components ease up I'll pull mine off my hunting rifle and slap it on one of my PRS rifles, I have several that are 1/4 MOA that will let me know extremely quick what the thermal does.
 
Sure looks like it’s moving to me. Being 2 to 3 inches off at 100 is pretty significant. Especially at farther ranges. 2 to 3 at 100 is 4 to 6 at 200. In my opinion that’s not acceptable. I’m guessing you are going to be having another conversation with Bering. I’m interested to see how they handle this.
 
Thanks again 204.
Two shots at top left corner of the handwarmer are from my Trail 2 and my .243 that I shot before shooting the SY. All other shots and comments are SY.

My original 0 (no pic posted) was pretty much dead center everso slightly favoring the 2 o'clock posity in the hand warmer and was done at base power and it held for a rest session or two.

Next test group a few day later was .75" ish over the handwarmer basically an inch higher than original 0.

Last weekend I turned the unit on for a while in the house for a bit then went straight to the bench and spent a minute or two fucusing and adjusimg the settings then shot the low right pair in the top pic.

It was cold out and I let it sit for a out 15 minutes I think on sleep mode and then shot the one at the very lower left corner and the one under

Given the spread I shot one more and that's the one just in the foil.

Yesterday morning I shot the 4 above the hand warmer.
Left pair were at 2x with pip and the 2 just to the left of those was at 4x on main screen.

I noticed the main screen retical appeared to about an inch low and right of the pip retinal at 2x on the first 2 shots. They appeared to be lined up at 4x.

I see my pic included one of my test groups before my original 0 shifted. You can see 2 shots in that little piece of foil almost cut off in that one pic. That group is actually .5" right of my original 0 group but it was good enough I called it good.

I've not adjusted since my original 0 which was a .5" center to 3 shot group.

Issues are basically all vertical.
 
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