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#99648 - 05/25/01 06:35 PM Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
UtahTrapper Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 8
Loc: Highland Utah
Anyone ever used Vern Dorn's 'Whistle' coyote call? I've been using one for a while, and haven't heard of anybody else using one.

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#99649 - 05/26/01 08:54 AM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Rich Cronk Offline
Retired Moderator

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 7135
Loc: Western Iowa
Utah,
Can you tell us where to buy one of the Vern Dorn calls? Vern was most famous for his denning dogs and his ability to whack the livestock killers . Owning a Vern Dorn "Whistle" would be an honor.

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#99650 - 05/26/01 10:15 AM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Curt Barrett Offline
PM senior

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 5144
Loc: Pacific Northwest
I remember reading about this call somewhere. Might have been in O'Gormans "Hoofbeats of a Wolfer". Can't remember. I do remember that nothing but good was said about that call. Like Rich said, if you know where to get one Utah, let me know. Would love to have a call designed by the "king of the denners".

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#99651 - 05/26/01 05:19 PM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
UtahTrapper Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 8
Loc: Highland Utah
Because of Vern Dorn's reputation and after seeing his video's I got his call. You can find it in the O'Gorman Catalog.

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#99652 - 05/27/01 01:57 AM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Curt Barrett Offline
PM senior

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 5144
Loc: Pacific Northwest
By gosh, I just happen to have one of those catalogs handy. Thanks

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#99653 - 05/27/01 08:33 AM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Daryl Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 806
Loc: Arizona
Where do you get a catalog?

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#99654 - 05/27/01 01:39 PM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Curt Barrett Offline
PM senior

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 5144
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Hi Daryl,here's the address and phone:
O'Gorman Enterprises, Inc.
Box 491,
Broadus, Montana
59317
Phone: (406)-436-2234
Catalogs are $5 but applied to your first order. Or if you make an order without a catalog they just send one.

They don't have a pic. of it in the catalog but here is the description in a nutshell. It is listed in the catalog simply as "The Whistle". Vern Dorn developed it in the late 1940s. It says "The Whistle particularly emulates a coyote in distress. Also works as a howler and a rabbit distress call. It is a open reed call with an aluminum body which Vern found to give the best tones. The clear plastic tube covering the reed is to protect the reed. However it may also be used on the other end of the call to amplify sounds."

"Each one individually hand made by Tim Fish."
Price $15.00 each plus postage (1 lb.)

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#99655 - 05/27/01 02:11 PM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Daryl Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 806
Loc: Arizona
Thanks Curt, I apprieciate all the info. I'll send for the catalog and a call and check it out. I was mostly interested in their catalog because I have never heard of them before, but if the call is only $10.00 more I'll order it. I can always use another call.

Thanks again,
Daryl

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#99656 - 05/28/01 11:33 AM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Curt Barrett Offline
PM senior

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 5144
Loc: Pacific Northwest
No problem Daryl. It's a great trapping supply catalog. Don't know if trapping interests ya or not but if you but if it does, the pics in the catalog from students and customers are pretty neat. It's about as thick as a Cabelas Master catalog but not the nice, glossy pics of a Cabelas. Little more primitive.

Take it easy, Curt

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#99657 - 05/28/01 12:46 PM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Daryl Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 806
Loc: Arizona
Just about anything on calling or trapping and such interests me. I grew up reading fur-fish-game magazines and trapped a little as a teen-ager. I haven't saved any furs for several years and my stretchers have been lost, sold or misplaced somewhere so I need to either make some out of 1x4's or order some this summer. I want to save some nice pelts next winter and get them tanned. Sometimes those trapping supply catalogs have things you can't find anywhere else.

Thanks again,
Daryl

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#99658 - 05/28/01 04:13 PM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
JLDakota Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 16
Loc: Monticello, Mn.
What Curt said about the O'Gorman's catalog is true. It's an interesting read. Craig's book, Hoofbeats of a Wolfer is probably the most informative compilation of coyote knowledge available. He's taken thousands of coyotes in the past 40 years using every method available and allowable. By the way Vern Dorn, in his lifetime, took 50,000 coyotes, using all methods available. Anybody want bet whether his "whistle" works?
For those interested in the use of the "whistle" and denning dogs, Craig also sells videos he took of Vern and his dogs in action. The videos aren't professional quality by todays standards, but the methods and the action when the coyotes chose to engage the dogs blow your mind.

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#99659 - 06/03/01 09:58 AM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Wiley E Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Kadoka, S.D.
JLDakota: By the way Vern Dorn, in his lifetime, took 50,000 coyotes, using all methods available.

Not taking anything away from Vern Dorn as he was a good ADC man, denner, dog man, etc. Like many others before him and many others since him.

Think about the 50,000 coyotes in a lifetime number. That is 1000 coyotes a year for 50 years. I have seen many of the old WY USF&WS ADC reports and the these numbers do not add up. Many months Vern reported 10 and 12 coyotes just like most other ADC men who were working problem coyotes in sheep country. Vern really shined in the denning season and was as good a denner as there probably was. In the months of May and June his reported take went up to 60 and 70 coyotes within a month which may include pups. That was more than most other men but is not always a measure of ability. It takes coyotes to kill coyotes.

Personally, I do not believe the 50,000 number especially for an ADC man in sheep country. For one man to take those kinds of coyote numbers and have those kinds of coyote numbers would leave very few if any sheep left in the area. One of the most respected ADC men in the Dakotas retired after taking 10,000 coyotes which may or may not have included aerial hunting take. Based on the man's abilities I would assume that those were ground only take.

Sadly, I think people have exagerated Vern Dorn's expertise and abilities to a point of ridiculous. By blowing these numbers out of realistic proportion they actually discredit this good man in the process to the people who understand what those numbers really do mean.

Again, no discredit to Vern Dorn as he was a good ADC man like many before him and many after him. Pud Long held both the USF&WS yearly and monthly coyote take record for a long time and possibly still stands. Pud Long was from Oregan and primarily used M44s. That record stood at somewhere around 1000 for a year. Don't quote me on that as I cannot find the exact number right now. I know it was just over 1000 coyotes in a year.

Don't believe everything you read.

How many companies do you know where you have to send in $5 to get a catalog so you can determine what to order? "Sir / mam, I would like to place an order but I do not know what to order because I don't have a catalog." LOL! Wiley E

[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 06-03-2001).]

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#99660 - 06/03/01 06:50 PM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Cal Taylor Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 545
Loc: Gillette Wy.
Wiley,
Excellent observation on the numbers and reasons this was not probable or possible. I didn't ever meet Mr. Dorn but I do know a few of his students. I have heard alot of good things about him, and his dog bloodlines are still around in various forms. I am familiar with the current model of his whistle. They are made for O'godman by a good friend of mine. Tim Fish, who works in Natrona county, where I also worked. It's a handy little call, but not any better than a dozen or so others. The first part of the body of the call is made of 1/2" aluminum tubing, followed by a larger hard plastic section. And it does have another piece of plastic tubing that you can use as a reed protector or an amplifier. On mine I use a fifty caliber shell casing cut off about 3 inches long for the amplifier. It gives the call a little more "ring". You guys can get them from O'godman in Broadus if you want.

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#99661 - 06/06/01 01:07 AM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
JLDakota Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 16
Loc: Monticello, Mn.
Wiley E.
I respect your right to have the opinion you have about the reality of Vern having taken by all means available to him 50,000 coyotes in his lifetime. That respect is not due to anything you have written in the above post, but to the fact that you have for many years "walked the walk". Whether the 50k total is true or not, I choose to be of the opinion that the "possibilty" exists because the population densities in the 30's and 40's were unlike anything we have seen in the decades since. The "depression era" allowed the coyote population to grow unchecked as the only means of control were the government hunters and some bounty programs. The 40's brought the "war", rationing of gas and shells and a low inventory of steel traps. The coyote had a free reign. We may have more coyotes today, but they are spread over a much larger area and less concentrated, therefore more difficult to take. As you know, there were no rules back then for those that persued the coyote and no time checks. Getters and strychnine drop baits, the steel trap, seasonal denning and coyotes called to the rifle were preferred methods used to varying degrees by all ADC men depending on their proficiency with each method.

Although, Vern was known as King of the Denners, he, by his own admission in 30's ran as many as 1400 getters along with as many as 200 traps at the same time. Those that are interested in the true numbers of the old time "wolfers" should contact Craig O'Gorman in Broadas,Mt. He has spent a lifetime researching everything there is to know about coyotes and those who succeeded in taking them in large numbers. His "Hoofbeats of a Wolfer" among many other things, contains facts, numbers and details on many of the old ADC guys you have heard of in conversations. Those of you who know O'Gorman, know he's a numbers guy. He has put in print that Vern took 50,000 and "he does know and understand what those numbers mean" and what it took to get them. He and Vern were very close friends and Craig would be the last person to "exaggerate Vern's expertise and abilities to the point of rediculous by blowing numbers out of realistic proportion to discredit the good man in the process".

At my age I've learned to not believe everything I read, thank you, but have learned instead to place more importance on those things that reference facts, data and details when formulating my opinions.

By the way, your numbers for Pud for the month and year are close but those referenced record numbers for the month were with steel trap only (no getters)and matched by no one still to this date. (per O'Gorman)

As to the catalog thing, he's a business man, who has determined his market and chooses not to give expensive catalogs for free to those who haven't proved serious about ordering his products. Works for him or he wouldn't do it.

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#99662 - 06/06/01 09:44 AM Re: Vern Dorn's 'Whistle'
Wiley E Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 410
Loc: Kadoka, S.D.
JLDakota: Whether the 50k total is true or not, I choose to be of the opinion that the "possibilty" exists because the population densities in the 30's and 40's were unlike anything we have seen in the decades since.

As you know, an area will only support a certain number of coyotes based on food, water, habitat, and human disturbance. Coyotes cannot stockpile without disease eventually knocking them back. Whether past or present, those basic coyote survival rules haven't changed.

I would say most of the areas outside of the coyote population control areas (sheep areas) have as high of coyote densities now as there ever was. The exception would be where mange has set in and knocked them back in recent years like it always has and probably always will.

JLDakota: The "depression era" allowed the coyote population to grow unchecked as the only means of control were the government hunters and some bounty programs.

But nature will never allow the population in any given area to exceed the carrying capacity without disease knocking them back. You have coyote population control areas around livestock and you have coyote populations outside of these areas. Past or present is not the issue because we are currently exceeding the carrying capacity in many areas as evidenced by mange and parvo.

Those areas that were not controlled year round will only have the number of coyotes that the area will support both then and now. If you visit with the older generation of ranchers that can make objective comparisons of population then and now will tell you that there are as many coyotes now as there was then in most areas that have not been hit by mange or parvo.

JLDakota: The 40's brought the "war", rationing of gas and shells and a low inventory of steel traps. The coyote had a free reign. We may have more coyotes today, but they are spread over a much larger area and less concentrated, therefore more difficult to take.

Less concentrated?? I beg to differ. Maybe in some cases but that certainly is not the case overall currently in the WYO, MT, SD, ND, or NE. Coyote densities in many areas are currently at their peak. Talk to ADC pilots who know more about coyote population densities than anyone you could find. They hunt whole states year after year and can make objective comparisons on populations in the last 30 years. Prior to that, the rules of the game haven't changed and the old timers who lived during that era will confirm this.

JLDakota: As you know, there were no rules back then for those that persued the coyote and no time checks. Getters and strychnine drop baits, the steel trap, seasonal denning and coyotes called to the rifle were preferred methods used to varying degrees by all ADC men depending on their proficiency with each method.

That is true, they did have less restraints. I will certainly give you that one. Compound 1080 was also used heavily during part of this era and many of those coyotes were never found. Where 1080 was used, few were left for cyanide guns or other methods. Very few were also recovered for their scalps without extensive searching. Many coyotes made it a long ways before they expired.

JLDakota: Although, Vern was known as King of the Denners,

No, Vern was labeled the "king of the denners" by O'Gorman. I have never heard his piers (SP?) call him that even though he may have been worthy of the title. There were many men back then that were just as accomplished in all aspects of ADC work but never had their names in print or someone to create noteriety for them.

JLDakota: he, by his own admission in 30's ran as many as 1400 getters along with as many as 200 traps at the same time.

I don't doubt that at all.

JLDakota: Those that are interested in the true numbers of the old time "wolfers" should contact Craig O'Gorman in Broadas,Mt. He has spent a lifetime researching everything there is to know about coyotes and those who succeeded in taking them in large numbers.

Those who are interested in the true numbers should obtain copies of the old USF&WS reports that were submitted by the men themselves when they still had to turn in coyote scalps to prove themselves. That is where some of O'Gorman's numbers probably originated.

JLDakota: His "Hoofbeats of a Wolfer" among many other things, contains facts, numbers and details on many of the old ADC guys you have heard of in conversations. Those of you who know O'Gorman, know he's a numbers guy.

Yes, Hoofbeats is a good book. I took trapping instructions back in 1983 from Craig and it was probably one of the best trapping investments I ever made. I learned a lot from Craig O'Gorman. Craig is very knowledgeable about coyotes and coyote trapping and is without question the hardest working coyote trapper I ever met. With that said, I have met many others with just as much collective coyote knowledge and many just as proficient with all control methods. Particularly calling. None I have met worked any harder.

JLDakota: He has put in print that Vern took 50,000 and "he does know and understand what those numbers mean" and what it took to get them. He and Vern were very close friends and Craig would be the last person to "exaggerate Vern's expertise and abilities to the point of rediculous by blowing numbers out of realistic proportion to discredit the good man in the process".

I don't think Craig exaggerated those numbers, I think he reported them as they were reported to him. He certainly didn't attempt to discredit him but rather to give him the credit that he was due. Either way, I believe those numbers are misleading.

JL, the numbers I was privy to were submitted by Vern Dorn himself in his monthly reports. That was back when they still had to furnish scalps. To make up for the snapshot in time that I saw and the coyote numbers he was taking in his later years, he would have had to have had many 2000 coyote years. Doubtful at best!

If you will agree that the coyote populations in many areas are as high today as they were back then, then lets look at the logistics of 50K coyotes. The best annual takes that are recorded currently in SD and surrounding states, by some of the best in the game IN HIGH POPULATION AREAS, are upwards of 700 annually. 1/3 of those would be by aerial hunting. Under the best of weather circumstances one could take 1000 coyotes on the ground with a lot of hard work and a lot of effort.

That would be considering the better transportation, better equipment, and POSSIBLY more coyote knowledge that we have today. Consider that same effort for 50 straight years with the equipment and transportation that they had back then.

If anyone gets close to 50,000 coyotes in a lifetime, it would probably be Craig O'Gorman himself but I don't think even Craig can kill 1000 coyotes a year for 50 years.

JLDakota: At my age I've learned to not believe everything I read, thank you, but have learned instead to place more importance on those things that reference facts, data and details when formulating my opinions.

What could be more credible than the numbers Vern himself reported to the USF&WS back in the era of scalps?

JLDakota: By the way, your numbers for Pud for the month and year are close but those referenced record numbers for the month were with steel trap only (no getters)and matched by no one still to this date. (per O'Gorman)

I wish I could find that report. You may be right but I am fairly certain that it was an Cyanide gun take. If I can find it I will report it.

I am not trying to discredit Vern, make you look bad, or have any axe to grind with anyone. I just understand these numbers and what it would require to kill 50,000 coyotes in a lifetime. You will have to come up with something better than you have that to convince me that it can be done.
Respectfully, Wiley E

[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 06-06-2001).]

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