varmint grenades on coyotes?

ruger300

Active member
Just read last night on barnes website that the varmint grenade offers spectacular kills and no pelt damage on coyotes and bobcats. Seeing how they group nicely in my .223 and exit the 24" barrel at 3700fps I'm gonna try some out on my big alberta coyotes and see what happens. They look just like a berger bullet in design and I've heard nothing bad about bergers on coyotes other than they are hard to come by in my neck of the woods round here. Anybody have any terminal results stories to share with me before I squeeze a few off at some fur? Thanks.

ruger300
 
I would be concerned about using a bullet that's supposed to come apart upon hitting a grape. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
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I would be concerned about using a bullet that's supposed to come apart upon hitting a grape. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif



Hmmm, good point.
DAL
 
all i have to say is that i am getting 1/2 inch groups with blk hills varmint grenades at 100 yds

as for the grape, that is exactly what you want for less pelt damage. 3800 ft amen
 
Allgrain, what load are you using in what particular caliber? Just curious if you've killed any yotes with these bullets yet.

ruger300
 
I personally have not killed anything yet with it. I pulled a bobcat permit for Pennyslvania in September. I leave today for a 5 day bear hunting and bobcat hunting trip.

I did a lot of research, and contrary to people complaining on some accuracy issues in their guns, I have not heard too many complaints about bullet performance.

I will tell you this, I will be hunting hard starting tomorrow morning for this bobcat, and the bullet I am choosing is the grenade. Needless to say, there are 10 times the amount of yotes than there are bobcats in my hunting area, and that too was a reason I chose the bullet.

I think the bullet will perform as indicated as long as you are not loosing too much velocity. Most of my shots are going to be at 50-100 yards (more like the 50 mark) and that bullet should explode on contact, with ALL the energy going into the vitals.

as for 200 yard shots, maybe the bullet will not explode like it should due to loss of speed.

either way, I will let you know if I get anything.
 
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...Most of my shots are going to be at 50-100 yards (more like the 50 mark) and that bullet should explode on contact, with ALL the energy going into the vitals.






AGB, I mean no offense here, so please don't take any. But I really think you are on the wrong track here with your bullet choice. My intent is to try and help you avoid what I'm guessing will be a mistake.

While I've never actually shot any animals with the VG's, I do have a good bit of experience testing bullets on coyotes. Unfortunately, a lot of that experience recently, has involved bullets that explode on contact. Exploding on contact is often referred to as "surface splash". I can assure you, that exploding on contact absolutely is NOT the kind of terminal performance you want to see on something like a coyote or bobcat. Unless, you just want to see huge holes blown in the hides (surface splash), combined with staggering, spinning, not cleanly killed animals.

With animals the size of coyotes and bobcats, you NEED some penetration to achieve a clean kill. The vitals aren't so close to the surface as to be directly destroyed by a bullet without some penetration. It doesn't need to be a lot of penetration, but for a clean kill, there absolutely has to be at least some penetration before bullet disruption. Ideally, only a few inches of penetration, followed by total disruption of the bullet inside the chest of the animal, resulting in an instant bang-flop kill and no exit wound, providing a nice clean pelt. This is NOT what happens when the bullet totally disrupts on contact as the VG is advertised to do. I've got quite a bit of well documented experience shooting coyotes with bullets that explode on contact and the results are NOT pretty.

Like I said to begin with though, I have not actually used the VG's on flesh. So, perhaps they will in fact give some penetration and perform well. But, if they perform as advertised, and explode on contact, my opinion is that they are going to be just about the worst choice possible for what you are wanting to do.

For illustration purposes, I'm going to paste an excerpt from an article I wrote recently that contains text and photos showing the performance of bullets exploding on contact. The pictures are not very tasteful, but they clearly show what I'm taking about.

- DAA

=============================
Warning! Totally tasteless, graphic photos below! I don’t normally even take pictures like these, let alone publish them. But, I was out there testing my rig for it’s intended purpose – and these photos illustrate the performance I’m wasn’t happy about better than any words can.

So, anyway… I was able to get out for a few hours by myself and make a few stands and do some more testing with the Berger 40 at about 4250 fps muzzle velocity. Here is a photo of the results, carefully arranged to hide the gore:

11-17%208.jpg


Before going any further, I need to stress that I am NOT trying to be critical of the Berger bullets. They are a great product. These bullets are superbly accurate in my rifle. They simply were not designed for the application I tried to use them in. It’s not the fault of the bullet, or the bullet maker. It’s my fault for using them in a way that they were never intended to be used or designed for.

Now, on to the ugly photos, showing the ugly bullet performance…

Below is the first coyote of the morning. A 39 lb male, 50 yards, broadside, hit just behind the shoulder. What you are seeing is the entrance wound, there was no exit. This is big time surface splash. He did some spins and staggered around for a few seconds before going down. And even after going down, I could see him breathing for much longer than I’m comfortable with. Remember, this was a perfectly placed shot, at 50 yards. I consider this kind of bullet performance to be a failure and simply not acceptable. A perfectly placed broadside shot at 50 yards should be a bang-flop, instantly dead coyote. But again – don’t blame Berger, it’s not their fault I took their great bullets and pushed them to such high velocity, and then hoped that they would not expand and disrupt on impact.

11-17%201.jpg


Next photo is the second coyote of the morning. A 37 lb male. He was running towards me when the bullet hit him in the chest at 60 yards. As you can see, ugly surface splash again, with a huge entrance wound and no real exit. And again, spinning, staggering, flopping. Another perfectly placed shot, another bullet failure.

11-17%205.jpg


Last one, the third coyote of the morning, a 31 lb male. Standing broadside at 90 yards, hit him perfect, low behind the shoulder. Much to my dismay, after first doing the ugly spin, stagger and drop routine, this coyote got back up and made a sickly sprint 50 yards uphill before I shot him again in the back of the head to finish him off. I guess you could call that mess an “exit” wound, but certainly not the kind I want to see on a broadside perfectly placed shot.

11-17%207.jpg


So, after that last coyote, I was done with the 40 gr. Berger… Called it a day and went home. Again, I want to stress that the Berger is really a very good bullet. But simply not designed or constructed for penetration of heavy tissue at the velocity I’m pushing it. Looking back at the first day, the two coyotes I hit at 210 and 300 yards, where the bullet had scrubbed off some velocity, the bullet penetrated and performed well without surface splash. It again appears to me that on closer shots, the velocity is just more than the bullet can take.
==================================
 
Excellent report DAA! I'll be avoiding those bullets for use on fur.

It looks like though...they may be a good choice for those who wish to turn the little critters into red mist.
 
There have been some good reviews of the varmint grenade bullet for terminal performance in the varmint hunters magazine. They tested on some bigger furry critters like large badgers and coyotes. They even recommend loading them down to prevent exit wounds. Could be though that the niche may be fox and bobcat for more sure kills. Looks like barnes is coming out with a 50 gr .223 next year.
 
interesting info, DAA, I dare you to drive that jeep just like that in the pic, through the avenues in SLC and up to park city /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I would assume you are talking about .204 cal bullets here, it looks like berger only makes MATCH VARMINT bullets in 204, when I called berger to ask them about their bullets on yotes they recommended the MATCH bullets which have a very small hole in the nose, The MATCH VARMINT bullets have a hole in the nose at least twice as big as the MATCH bullets do. this is of course talking about .22 cal bullets, as there are no MATCH bullets offered in 20 cal. I have only had the chance to shoot one yote with the 50berger 22 cal match bullet bullet running about 3900fps. it was a bang flop and the dog was absolutely perfect couldn't find an entrance or exit, I have never shot a dog that had an utter lack of any evidence of the hit like this one. as up till now I had been using the 50 vmax. this was only one yote hopefully in the next week I will get a chance to test it on a few more.

if anyone gets the chance I would erge you to take a trip to a bullet manufacturing facility a while back I toured barnes bullets and got to see how the bullets are made, I was particularly interested in the regular lead core bullets, these are all basically made the same, I can really see why a HP varmint bullet fragments after seeing how its built, The bigger the HP the faster and more immediate the jacket will utterly blow up and all thats left is a small lead core. this is why plastic tip bullets blow up, underneath that tip is a large HP once the plastic tip is moved its gonna blow up big time, I think part of the reason why guys like the 22 cal 60 vmax so much, is once the jacket is gone that is just enough lead core left to get the job done.
so I am banking on the berger MATCH having a small enough hole in the nose to slow expansion enough to put a yote down in all cases. I could be wrong, on my thinking who knows
 
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Dave, that was a great post. I had similar experience with Speer 52's shot out of a 22/250@3550 fps. The bullets were knocking the yotes unconscious blowing a 5" hole on the surface and not penetrating.

Other people have reported really great results from the Speer 52, but all I had was bad on yotes. We took a box of 50 of them to Mexico, and ended up having to take our time to aim for the neck and head...really bad deal. I barked more on that trip to get the yotes to stop moving than any trip in my life.

Always use enough bullet to get some penetration. You have to count on hitting ribs, shoulders, and hip joints, not to mention quartering shots.
 
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There have been some good reviews of the varmint grenade bullet for terminal performance in the varmint hunters magazine. They tested on some bigger furry critters like large badgers and coyotes. They even recommend loading them down to prevent exit wounds. Could be though that the niche may be fox and bobcat for more sure kills. Looks like barnes is coming out with a 50 gr .223 next year.


Loading them down is more likely to cause exit wounds. The higher the velocity, the quicker the expansion and the less the penetration. The slower bullets don't expand as fast or as much and penetrate better. If you read DAA's post he says that he was getting surface splashes at high velocity but once the bullets had slowed down he was getting better penetraton.

Jack
 
Yip, I'm finding exactly what Jack explains. My 40 gr. match varmit .204 are leaving the muzzle at 3700 fps. Of the 7 coyotes that I have shot this fall, I've had exits on all of them. Of the 7, I had one that looked just like the bottom pic. that Dave posted. the other 6 had exit holes that were from dime size to silver dollar. All shots have been between 40 and 150 yards. SO, for me so far, I have seen good killing power from the .204, and so far, for the most part, less damage than the 22-250 used to do, with the one exception.
 
Just read the article in Varmint Hunter #64 by L.P. Brezny, think it sheds a little more light on this bullet. Has anyone else saw the video Barnes has out on this bullet amazing!!
 
got back from camp, no bobcat or yotes to give any results on. Horrible snow and wind. useless weather.

I will be heading out for fox in a few weeks.

I appreciate your info, and I will try to post my results.
 
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Just read the article in Varmint Hunter #64 by L.P. Brezny, think it sheds a little more light on this bullet. Has anyone else saw the video Barnes has out on this bullet amazing!!



A lot of bullets will do the same thing on a grape - many will explode on hitting a piece of typing paper.

A grape seem like a fragile thing, but at three and a half times the speed of sound, it is as hard as a brick, and is capable of wrecking a jet fighter, under the same conditions.


.
 
Well after a successfull day I have a report on the varmint gernades on coyotes. The first yote was about 150yds and only offered a head shot. He dropped at the shot but I had a 6" hole behind his ears to sew up.
barnesyote.jpg

The second yote busted me at close range and ran to 250yds before I managed to woof her to stop. I was aiming on the shoulder but musta pulled the shot. She left a blood trail of 100yds a blind man could follow and only had a 4"sewing job to do.
barnesyote2.jpg

All in all I'm pleased with the performance. Will continue to give updates as they happen.

ruger300
 
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