A moral dilemma.

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

d2admin

Administrator
Guys I have a little problem here with something, and that is using small dogs or pups or kittens or whatever for decoys.

I am dang sure not trying to be the moral police but I have been bothered by these comments for quite some time now and have just kept quiet.
I decided to finally get it off my chest I guess , so now I know that puts me in anyones sights that wants to take a pot shot at me.
Happy hunting , I think that they will most all miss and I will survive the rest.

A couple of reasons, first is that I don't care how careful you think that you are capable of being it is just a matter of time before the coyote wins this little game of cat and mouse.
It may not be today , or this week , or even this month. But I will gauranbydamtee you that it WILL happen if you press the odds long enough.

I am not a particularly squeemish person myself, nor am I out to make the world a better place for little critters. I do have a problem with folks who think that they can keep FeeFee out of trouble. It aint a gonna happen.
Mr coyote is going to put the munch on her sooner or later.

I guess that my main concern is that in light of how I feel about the ability to keep them safe ,it sheds a bad light on us as hunters.
I know that we are just lowly "varmint hunters" a subspecies of the more moral "other" kinds of hunters,, bullshit.

But we don't really need to perpetuate that myth.
So if I have offended anyone that ,, well I really don't know what to say about that.

I guess it is kind of hard to say what you really feel sometimes and keep EVERYONE happy.

Craig.
 
I have been concerned about the same thing. I usually hunt with with the dog(don't have much choice here as he insists on going) unless there is a coyote that I really want.However this dog weighs about 80 lbs. and is half Blue Heeler(mother) and vet thinks part pit bull(father?). Needless to say, he seems to hold his own in encounters with coyotes,if he gets more than he thinks he can handle, he comes back to me immediately. The point of all this is I have shot female coyotes over the top of the dog/male coyote (shooting over round bales with the pair may be 15 to 20 yards in front of the bales and I don't think the coyote ever heard the shot, only intent on fighting the dog. If a coyote attacks a small dog that can't get away or hold his own, by the time a hunter gets out to club the coyote off of his dog, I think it might be much to late. Just my opinion.
 
Craig:

While I agree with what you are saying, I believe that the problem goes much further. There seems to be, and I read more every day, a movement swelling by the ANTI-NAZIS to stop all kinds of bait hunting for bear, deer, etc. There are now movements is at least 10 states where there is legislation being considered to ban such.

I think that all these people need is to show the "ugly-gun toting-killer hunters" out with some little house pet. They will then tie this to assault weapons, school shootings, etc. All to enhance their emotional plea that people that own guns are not stable, outstanding citizens - and shouldn't be allowed to own or shoot their guns, let alone hunt. It would make great headlines about the cruelty that hunters impose on not just the poor wild animals, but the family pet too. Their line will be "Is using kids for bait next!"

I don't mean to preach either, just concerned with our image, rights, and future!

[This message has been edited by shotgun (edited 04-18-2001).]
 
Craig...no shots coming from my way. I've never used a dog and certainly would not use a pup as bait. Heck, with my luck, I'd shoot my own dang dog!! See ya'....Randy
 
No shots from me either, I generaly don't approve of any baiting for deer or whatever, I feel its a lazy mans approach to hunting, I know that there are exceptions, the canadien bush is so thick it would be hard to hunt bear any other way, but to train deer to come into a corn speading machine so you don't have to go find them or in other words to hunt them is I think beyond what i would consider OK, Its not legal in MT and if its legal in your state and you want to do it go ahead, NOW as for using small animales for decoys such as pups or kittens, I think your right sooner or later one is going to get mauled, and in no time flat,
 
Craig, I agree with you. I think using “Fee Fee” for decoy is nothing more than playing “Russian Roulette.” Sooner or later, the coyote will win that game. I know I have three Yellow Labs. If I were to use one of them for a decoy dog, and I had to bring that dog home with missing parts, well, I might as well gut shoot myself on the way home, because it will happen when I get home.
biggrin.gif
biggrin.gif


The idea is to get the coyote’s attention and there are many ways of doing that without putting “Fee Fee” in mortal danger.

Take care.
 
Point taken Craig, I had the same concerns regarding small dogs. I agree that I don't know if you can be careful enough.

Personally, I try to tread lightly on telling someone what they can do as long as it is within the limits of the existing laws. In this case, I think the "disposable dog" scenerio will not look good for recreational calling either but it's still legal. As coursing coyotes with greyhounds does not bode well for coyote hunting but it's legal and it's fun but it certainly isn't pretty. How many lines do you draw though?

Look how long the primitive vs. traditional vs. high tech archery argument has gone on. Archery has become so high tech that the success ratios increased to a point where archery will be considered a management tool in some areas. Now those that are in it for the challenge are going to be faced with shorter seasons by those who are in it for the kill and can't utilize enough technology. Then you have those that will argue that if begginers do not realize some degree of success, they will quickly loose interest and drop out leaving less to carry the torch. A legitimate point I might add.

My point here being that moral issues can really be a drag. If you give a small yappin' poodle 10 fun hunts before wiley seals his fate, how does that compare to an immediate death to lethal injection at the dog pound. No, I am not advocating doing that but just pointing out the can of worms that these moral dilemas can be. You can spin this in a lot of directions but I appreciate you standing on your convictions. Wiley E

[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 04-18-2001).]
 
Craig: I am new here, but thought I would throw my 2cents worth in for what it's worth. Sometimes I think people get a little carried away with thier need to kill something everytime they go out. I was reading a post on another board a few months ago where a guy was asking about using a tape of his baby crying to bring in coyotes. Now this is getting a little carried away, teaching them that there is an easy meal to be had by munching on our offspring. These durn things are getting dangerous enough without teaching them to eat our kids.

------------------

Bill
 
Well Boys I guess I'm odd man out.So let me give you my opinion on the subject before you brand me a heartless dog hater.And please don't anyone take offence to this post.

Craig,first of all I was pretty shocked when I read this post. I know that comming from a Ranch background you've seen a Heeler or Broder Collie pup stomped by cattle for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.I think it's all part of the learning process.The same goes for coyote dogs and all other hunting dogs as well, be it :coon ,lion ,bear ,hogs or whatever

I have never used a house dog or a kitten for calling decoys. The pup I use I plan to have grow up into a tolling/decoy dog.Not bait.

I have a walker coon hound pup I use to call in coyotes. I don't think he has ever been in danger.Untill he gets big enough , I'll never let him get more than 10 to 15 yds. away from me.Tell me,If a coyote did happen to get in between me and the dog don't you think he'd leave town as soon as I stood up and yelled or waved my arms at him.If not I must not have a serious misunderstanding of coyotes.Aren't they scared of people. It's not like a bear or lion or a hog its a scrawney 45 lbs.(at max) coyote. I think a live decoy works great. The dog didn't seem to mind, in fact he seemed to like it. After the first couple times out he even acted like he understood the game.

To each their own,is what I say.Everyone has their own way of doing things, and who are we to condem them.Each persons morals is their own buisness.And it is a never ending battle.Feeders or not, Compound or recurve, spotlight or not,hand calls or electronic, the list goes on and on.

So I guess we'll all just have to agree to disagree and keep on huntin however we see fit.

Later,
Justin


------------------

predatorlogo3jpg.gif

http://www.predatormasters.com
 
Gentlemen. . .

I’ve noticed an increasing trend to use dogs while calling predators. I’ve run lot of lions with dogs and even a few accidental bear in my time. But the thought of using a dog while calling predators has never appealed to me for some reason.

Do I hold anything against a man who does? Not at all... If it’s legal in the state where you hunt, and you enjoy it, then more power to you.

I knew a guy that would run coyotes with a pair of Greyhounds. This lasted a few years until they got in the middle of a herd of Javelina. The dogs got so chewed up he had to put the dogs down. As far as I know, the owner has not gone hunting since.

Different strokes, for different folks...
wink.gif





------------------
yotewalk.gif

http://www.predatormasters.com
 
We have 3 Jack Russell Terriers. Their purpose, their passion, the one thing that drives them, is THEIR desire to enter the earth and bolt, draw, or drag out whatever might be there. They are by nature fearless of anything in a hole and most anything else that isnn't. They will dig in and have been known to stay for hours sometimes days--yes days,doing what means more to them than life itself. What they do brings me pleasure. Because it does and I know the dangers it is my responsiblity and my obligation to be prepared to go in and get them out if necessary. Deep hole, roots, rock, creek bank--if my dog chooses to enter and I allow or did not prevent it then the responsiblity is mine. More than once a trip to the truck for the digging tools has taken precedence over the pleasure of hearing the dog deep in the earth living its life to the fullest. Is this wrong to "allow" the dog to be in danger? Some think so. Is it right to deprive the dog of the one thing it lives for? I think not. Would I ever stuff my dog into a hole? NEVER!
My knee jerk reaction to the first posts dealing with dogs as "decoys" / "bait" was 100% negative, probably based on my dogs ability to deal with a coyote. Believe me they would take on the task but I can't believe any of my 16 pound or less hairballs could do the job. Therefore they will NEVER be in that position. Can Sam Sureshots mega pound Yoteater do the job?
I guess thats between Mr Sureshot and his dog.
 
Critr thanks for reclarifying the situation.

Jbrad I wasent talking about you when I posted this, I realize what you are training your dog to do. At the distance that you are keeping him at then no he is not in much danger. Nor do I get the feeling that you consider him expendable.You are correct in that I did see several dogs get hurt in their duties on the ranch and I understand that there is a price to pay somtimes for them to live that life.
Yet I never sent a dog into a situation without the thought that they were fairly capable of keeping themselves out of trouble.

A pup or a dog not bred for that kind of work is another story.

Robb , I sure am not going to get into a discussion of the value of all living creatures with you. To be honest that is a measure of a persons own morality where they draw the line.

You made a good point though about the anti's. However I disagree with it.
I am not one of the hard liners that think any concession is admitting defeat. Whether we like it or not this is a political world we live in. There are groups that are spending outrageous amounts of money to shut us down. I really could give a squat what they think, I already know they are our enemy. I am seriously concerned about the great undecided voting body of people out there.
Thye can be turned , and their vote is important on issues that affect us.

I simply feel that we don't need to give the anti's more ammo against us.
Do you drape your coyotes over your hood and drive down main street in Scottsdale?
I bet not, and that is the same kind of concession.

Kittens and puppies taken out to be used as bait is a black eye looking to be swatted on us.
 
Always interesting talking about ethics and morals. I guess I would inject one more opinion here. As long as what you are doing is legal, fine! Fine, that is, until it threatens the recreation for the rest of us. Are we at that point? Nah, I don't think so but we could be someday. Until then, do what you like but consider the consequences it may have on our sport.

Good points were made on the use of bait and discriminating against ugly critters as opposed to cuddly ones. Is the life of a worm worth more than the life of a damn "ditch cougar". LOL! Not to most people. Most people would take the cat over a mouse or sewer rat. Perception is reality whether we like it or not.

I have read and enjoyed a lot of posts by Craig Hamilton in the past but his last post on public perception really got my attention. On the issue of public peception, I believe he is 100% correct. Perception is reality in this day and age and there is no way around it.

If you don't think perception is reality just think back to the Rodney King beating. It didn't matter how long his police record was. It didn't matter how he may have verbally abused the officers. It didn't matter if the officers were scared by him because he was high on Angel Dust. It didn't matter that he resisted arrest and wouldn't stay down with a stun gun. It didn't matter that he eluded officers. It didn't matter that the officers may have finally been fed up with all the other verbal abuse that they had taken in that area.

All that mattered was that Rodney King was a black man that was being beaten by white officers. One small piece of film. What also mattered is that looters were looking for another excuse to loot the town and raise hell as they carried TVs and VCRs out of the stores with smiles on their faces. Oppressed people with smiles on their faces. Go figure!

Here's another classic example. Remember the fur seal campaign. It didn't matter that the fur seals were overpopulated. It didn't matter that they were competing with the commercial fishing industry and may cost the consumers in higher prices. It didn't matter that the indigenous tribes subsistence depended on their living from these animals and from the land. It didn't matter that that these people would be forced into poverty.

All that mattered was the picture of the little, brown eyed, white furry seal pup with his head clubbed by a native islandic sealer. Who won that one?

Perception matters and politics is reality. To think differently you would have to have your head buried in the sand.

Some things just won't play in Peoria no matter what the justification. Some things that you think won't play in Peoria, like ADC and trapping, will with proper public education. Using pups and cats as disposable decoys never will. Forget it!

Again, I don't care what you do until it threatens the sport that we love dearly.

I also agree 100% with the comments about Jack Russel Terriors. Absolutely love them and they live to kill! The difference there is the JRT wants to kill, the cat doesn't want to be killed.

I don't think that the "they'll take my disposable, live "ditch cougar" decoys when they pry my cold dead fingers from around them" attitude will impress anyone. I may be wrong but don't expect any support from me, your on your own.

As much as I hate those who would end what we love to do (antis), many men and women have fought and died for their right to protest and push their warped opinions on others. Remember that! Wiley E


[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 04-19-2001).]
 
Craig & Wiley:

You both amplified the point that I attempted to make earlier in this post string. I don't mean to preach either, just concerned with our image, rights, and future!

It is those unknowns in the middle that are going to be swayed and WILL make the difference regarding our future. There are 80 million hunters/gun owners in this country, against the combined ANTI groups of around 4 million. With that being said,

WHO is getting the gun laws passed?
Who is getting gun clubs closed around the country?
Who is getting trapping laws revoked?
Who is getting hunting laws restricted and revoked?
WHO stopped cat and bear hunting in PRK?
WHO stopped dove hunting in MN?

ANSWER: It sure isn't the 80 million hunters/gun owners in this counrty!

Perception is exactly what will control and change our future. Like it or not the perception is that hunters and gun owners are a bunch of irresponsible, uneducated, lawless, drunks, and abusers of wildlife. We are a mob!

I spend many hours in both our state and national capital supporting and fighting for gun, shooting, and hunting rights, as well as, legislation. I have seen the pictures of animals in traps, fawns with 6 arrows in them, etc....I have seen videos presented that were extracted and edited from some of the coyote hunting tapes the we learn from ......and I have heard the stories and even seen the tears of the supporters.
....they know how to work a crowd and the media (they have CBS, NBC, and ABC on their side).

An attitude of "they can't take away my rights beause I have the law on my side" not only can, but is being changed on us as we write these emails.......Remember Austrailia?

Perception is Reality!

------------------
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~one shot.....one kill~

[This message has been edited by shotgun (edited 04-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by shotgun (edited 04-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by shotgun (edited 04-19-2001).]
 
Well, blame me if your thoughts got deleted, sorry about that, but I think we need to move on to subjects that are more productive and less provocative, okay?
smile.gif
LB
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top