Help with reloading data, IMR 3031 and Speer 180g .358 in 35 Rem

Dultimatpredator

Well-known member
I read on line that Speer use to have listed in one of their old reloading manuals a listing of using this powder with a max velocity of 2427fps. I have load book number 13
and it doesnt list this powder choice for the 180g bullet anymore. I plan on starting at the minimun and working my way of the latter to check casing pressure. Dose anyone have an older book that could provide me with the loading data? Thanks for any help.
 
35 Remington

Warning! Remington Model 14, twenty-two-inch barrel,sixteen inch twist, Remington 9 1/2 primers, Remington cases. (Taken From Handloader Issue 98)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
180 Speer flat-nose IMR IMR-3031 38.0 2,119
 
Appreciate the info. Its a load I am working up for 2006' NIB unfired Remington 7600. Not an old worn out actioned rifle. I realise I still need to be careful but would like to find out this load data. As stated, I plan on working my loads up from the minimum offering, checking casing for any signs for pressure along the way.
 
My guess is that the equation I am trying to find out is going to be between 39.5 and 40.5 grains that would have been at the velocity given for 2427fps and I am sure it was out of a longer barrel than whats normally offered in any production gun for the given velocity. Since I am at the 18.5" barrel mark I am sure I wont get that type of velocity before pressure signs start showing.
 
For those of you interested I found this posting on another site from a guy who seems to have been around the 35 Rem for a while:





For some time now, I've been handloading for the .35. At the prompting of
sprest22, one of the veterans of the old Marlintalk, the discussion turned to
velocities and handloads using H4895. Along the way, other powders were reviewed
and the utility of an old favorite powder in a newer version was tested. I
reconfirmed the velocities at a range session yesterday and got a few other
things done. I hope some of you find the information to be of some use, and I
will try to explain some of the methodology and reasoning I used in developing
the data and why it was done.

The information is intended for Marlin 336's, Remington Model 760 pumps and
front locking bolt actions, all in good condition, ONLY. No old recoil operated
autoloaders or beat up, worn and abused guns should be used with this
information. All powder charges were weighed and my scale calibrated using a
Lyman weight check set. These check weights were cross reference with friend
Dave's (7-30) check weights and were found to be spot on. His check weights are
made by Hornady.

Please note the this most recent data was obtained using 200 grain bullets
manufactured by Hornady. This bullet seats a little more shallowly that the 200
grain Remington Core-Lokt. Any data that uses the Remington bullet should be
backed off, then redeveloped with a chronograph. When substituting the Remington
bullet in the past, there was really no significant differences in velocity, but
your rifle may not behave exactly like mine do.

Case capacity by brand
Cases from Winchester, Remington and Federal were used with all loads listed.
Across the board, there were no significant differences in velocity when
identical weighed charges were used in each brand of case. As an example, 38.5
grains of H4895 produced 2088 fps in Federal cases, 2090 fps in Winchester
cases, and 2095 fps in Remington cases. The Hornady 200 grain bullet was used in
all three loads. Load is from the Hodgdon's 27th data manual. Velocities tested
in two Microgroove Marlin 336's, one of 1988 vintage and another produced in
2003, both with 20 inch barrels. All chronographing was done on the same day
during the mid to late afternoon. Temperature yesterday was seventy degrees, but
they have also been tested at higher and lower temperatures.

-The old standard-the 200/2200 and its modern low pressure duplication-
Old time handloaders of the .35 for many years used data published by Hercules,
now Alliant, that listed 34.0 Reloader 7 with a 200 grain bullet.
Ken Waters, in his Pet Load series, listed this as maximum in his article about
the .35 Remington. This gives 2200 fps at 70 degree temperatures in nearly every
20 inch .35 I've tried it in. It can be considered slightly +P and probably not
conforming to the low pressure SAAMI standard of 33,500 psi, but more than safe
in any reasonably sound 336. I used it for many years.

Since then, RL7 has changed. The granules are larger and of a different color
and lack the graphite coating. Not surprising, since it is now manufactured in
Sweden rather than the USA. A range test yesterday compared the new to the old.
On average, the new RL7 produced:
30 grains-1923 to 1991 fps
31 grains-1938 to 2045 fps
32 grains-2049 to 2106 fps
33 grains-2093 to 2140 fps
All with the 200 grain Hornday bullet.
The reason for the overlap of some velocities is that two different rifles and
three different brands of cases were used, and most particularly for the fact
that the charges listed leave a fair amount of airspace in the case. Some cases
had powder sloshed to the front, some in the back near the primer, and others
with powder lying evenly along the side of the case. I made no attempt to orient
the powder in the case, as this duplicates the conditions of actual hunting use.

Under the same conditions, Remington cases, Hornady 200 grain bullet, old RL7
gave 2183 fps using 33 grains. I get the impression that the newer Reloder 7
MIGHT be a little slower burning than the old Reloader 7, but considering the
variation inherent in different rifles and different powder position DO NOT take
that to the bank. The burning rate relationship may change in different calibers
and different conditions of use. The best advice I can offer is to develop new
RL7 loads in seventy degree temperatures, use a chronograph, and quit when you
hit 2200 fps. To do otherwise is to tread on untested ground. I did not notice
any significant change in accuracy comparing new vs. old RL7 in my .35's, but
then the 200 grain roundnose is not my 336's favorite bullet, accuracywise.

-The modern H4895/200/2200-
Hodgdon's H4895 is much slower burning than RL7. It fills the case when
producing 2200 fps velocities (RL7 doesn't come close to case fill) and produces
lower pressures while doing so. For those of you still expressing doubt about
the safety of 2200 fps speeds, this combination should set your mind at ease. It
produces the most margin of any load of which I am aware that achieves the same
velocity in the 35.

The load mentioned is compressed when used in full length sized cases, but not
heavily so. It is:

200 Hornady RN, seated to the cannelure and crimped with the Lee factory crimp
die with a moderate but not excessive crimp.
40.5 H4895, weighed.
2212 fps velocity, Remington cases.
2208 fps velocity, Federal cases.
2188 fps velocity, Winchester cases.
All cases used were once fired. Velocity is taken at 15 feet from the muzzle of
the guns, 20" Microgroove Marlin 336's. Seventy degree ambient temperature. The
velocity has held nicely across a wide range of temperatures, so H4895 does
appear to be temperature insensitive just as Hodgdon claims.

Want to go 2200 fps with a 200 grain RN? If so, this is the lowest pressure way
to go that I have found. It is two grains above the recommendation of 38.5
grains published in the Hodgdon manual, and is 109 fps faster in my guns. The
.35 Remington is limited to 33,500 psi, while the .30-30 goes to 42,000 psi in
the same 336 Marlin action. The safety margin is amply there for 336 users to
load to this level if they wish in the .35. 35 Remington cases are NOT inferior
in strength or thickness to .30-30 cases.

-The Buffalo Bore 2200/220 H4895 equivalent-
If Sunday Creek is around, I hope he can confirm the velocity of the Buffalo
Bore load, as I believe he tested the velocity in a 20 inch barrelled rifle. The
question is whether the velocity claimed was obtained from a 20 inch or a 24
inch barrel. Nevertheless, here we go, and the reasons for so doing.

The Speer bullet is tough, and is on the upper range of bullet weight suitable
for the relatively small capacity .35 Remington case. If handloaders wish to
keep velocity around the 1900 fps speed as suggested in many manuals, I would
suggest using a different bullet. It will just not work as well as it could if
it was loaded to these speeds. However, in the 2100-2200 fps range, it has
several advantages:

Very good accuracy from my Marlins.
Moderate but reliable expansion at ranges up to 200 yards if launched at the
proper speeds.
Construction that does not fail, blow up or separate core from jacket when used
at powder burn ranges or against tough targets like elk or moose at timber (125
yards on in) ranges.
Deep penetration, fully 50 percent more than the various 200 grain RN's.

If the Buffalo Bore load was developed in a 24 inch barrel:
Then the velocity will be around 2120 fps from a 20 inch barrel.
To duplicate this in full length sized cases, 38.5 grains was used with the 220
Speer for 2120 fps. This is a compressed load and a fair effort was needed to
seat the bullet to the cannelure, but not so much as to make the bullet back out
of an uncrimped case after the load was observed after 24 hours. All loads were
then given a moderate crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die.

In two different 336's this gave 2114 fps on yesterday's range retest, and is
also nicely stable at various temperatures. The temperature yesterday was 70
degrees, and the last test was on one of those blisteringly hot 101 degree days
with the loads left in direct sunlight, which is where the 2120 fps velocity
came from. I don't know about you, but I find such consistency impressive.
Accuracy was very good, and I spent some time whacking phone books at 200 yards
with the bullet, just as I did last year while doing some bullet expansion
tests. The bullets performed yesterday just like they did then, with over 21-22
inches of penetration into wet phone books. 200 RN usually do around 14 inches
at the same range at 2200 fps.

-The 2200 fps load in 20 inch barrels-
First, this load is for experienced handloaders and new cases or those with only
a few firings under their belt. If the handloader has any doubts, please stick
with the 2120 fps load. I don't believe it is particularly high pressure at all,
but I also believe in a generous safety margin.
This load will not fit in full length sized cases without heavy compression of
the powder. The load is 39.5 grains H4895, 2198 fps average velocity at 15 feet.
My suggestion is to use this load in NECK SIZED cases, which allow more powder
capacity for less compression. Loads fired previously should be fairly mild to
promote easy chambering of the cartridge and allow the lever to easily lock
shut. Once cases are fired with this load, they will still rechamber easily, but
I recommend that they be demoted to range use with this load thereafter if they
have been fired more than a few times. No, cases do not stretch, and extraction
is effortless, but remember I believe in that safety margin, and no one wants to
experience a failure to fire on a hunt because the lever did not fully close.
Such are the cautions needed when working with neck sized cases for hunting use,
but they are prudent and won't cost you a shot at some trophy elk or black bear.

If you persist in trying to put 39.5 grains H4895 in the full length sized case
you may be unhappy with the compression needed to seat the bullet. Be sure to
use the neck sizer only, not a partially sized or full length sized case.
Recoil, as I think Sunday Creek noted, is noticeable at this level. Muzzle
energy is 2365 foot pounds at 2200 fps with the 220 Speer. If you can't kill it
with this load it probably can't be killed with anything short of a 50 BMG
round.

-2300+fps with the 180 Speer using temperature insensitive powder-
My old standard is 42.0/H335/180 Speer at 2300 to 2380 fps (Hodgdon's 25th and
26th), depending upon temperature, and that is the (minor) problem. H335 is
temperature sensitive, but that's not a problem for some, and I really don't
have that big of a problem with it either. It bothers some handloaders, though,
and might be an disadvantage for those hunting in really cold tempertures. For
me personally, temperatures below ten degrees Fahrenheit make me really
uncomfortable in a tree stand. I have suffered through much worse, like the time
Dave (7-30) and I went deer hunting one morning when the air temp was -12F and
the wind chill -80 because the wind was blowing at sixty miles per hour. Yes, we
saw deer. No, I did not shoot one. When I got back to the truck my hands were so
cold I could not turn the key when I put it in the door of the truck and had to
turn it using the palms of both hands. Total lunacy, but hey, I'm a fanatic like
the rest of you.

For the sanity challenged among us, H322 and H4895 seem appropriate because of
their temperture insensitivity. I have experience using these powders with the
180 Speer in the 14 inch barrelled Contender handgun in .35 Remington (not the
new G2 version). This particular model is less able to handle pressures than the
336 Marlin, having thin frame sidewalls that flex under case thrust, springing
the frame slightly and allowing it to return to normal. Excesssive springing
causes cases to stick very slightly under extraction (NOT opening-if this
happens this is a BIG warning sign). Procedure is to consider over maximum any
load that produces the slightest effort in extraction, and reduce the charge
until no detectable extraction effort occurs, thus minimizing setback of the
frame and assuring a long, long life for the gun.

H322 seems particularly able with the 180 Speer. H4895 will not quite equal it
in velocity but provides a greater safety margin due to its slower burning rate.
Without further ado:

38.0/H322/180 Speer, seated to the cannelure and crimped with the Lee Factory
Crimp die using a moderate crimp
2340 fps using Winchester cases
2342 fps using Remington cases

40.0/H4895/180 Speer, seated and crimped as above
2276 fps Winchester cases
2275 fps Federal cases
2275 fps Remington cases

41.0/H4895/180 Speer, seated and crimped as above
2336 fps using Federal cases.
I prefer this load to the 40.0/H4895/180 Speer version.

If pressures have you bothered, the H4895 load is the one to pick because of the
slightly slower burning rate. Yes, the loads are a few grains (2 for H4895, 3
for H322) above those listed in the Hodgdon's 27th, but remember the .35's
33,500 psi. You will have to answer to your own conscience to determine what you
want to do. These are in the same velocity range as my old 42.0/H335/180 Speer
loads with modernized powders. The Speer 180 could be in contention for "best
all around" bullet for the .35, but only if loaded to 2300+ fps speeds. It
penetrates nearly as well as the 220 Speer but with the advantages of flatter
trajectory, which can be helpful under some conditions. If you currently shoot
the 180 Speer at 2000 to 2100 fps I might suggest the 200 grain Remington
Core-Lokt as being more suitable for those speeds.

A final note: IF YOU DON'T OWN A CHRONOGRAPH YOU CANNOT DUPLICATE THESE LOADS -
YOUR GUN MIGHT VARY FOR SOME REASON THAT IS UNKNOWN TO YOU, ELIMINATING ANY
SAFETY MARGIN. Shell out 75 bucks for a Chrony, a good machine for the price by
the way. Best money you'll ever spend, and you will know where you are at
velocitywise, a definite aid to safety.

This was intended for the many experienced handloaders on the Marlinowners talk
site that I know (thanks also to sprest22), of which there are many, and have
helped me provide a cross check of the safety of these loads in multiple 336's.
No complaints, ever, and that's the best I can do. All loads produced good case
life, but cases don't last forever and should be demoted to lighter loads
eventually in the interests of safety. If you are determined to get 40+ reloads
out of your .35 Remington cases using full power loads no matter what, I might
suggest that you are a dangerous cheapskate, but at least it's your eyeballs and
not mine. Paper targets can't tell the difference between 2100 and 2300 fps.
These are up to 200 yard tough condition big critter hunting loads, not everyday
150 yard and less whitetail deer loads and range loads. Proceed accordingly.

If you are a new or novice handloader, please get some experience under your
belt and find an old hand to hang out with first. And buy a chronograph
 
Thanks Wrongtarget. I found that one the other day too. I am going to go with the 180g Speer but am really torn between it and the Rem 200g core loct. I am reloading myself so I plan on running the 180s as close to 2400fps if I can but would plan on running the the Rem at 2200 velocities if I end up going that route, that's if there are no signs of pressure at these velocities. From what I have read manufactures really downplay the CUP pressures on this bullet being its usually for an old world lever action rifle. Since I am using it in a new, strong 2006' 7600 I plan on bumping myself up in half grain increments and using my chrony to see if I can really get there as stated above. the biggest thing if the accuracy falls off there is no need to stretch the limit in the first place. I read that on the same information page that someone was using W748 powder and had gotten up to 2500fps and just a little over with the 180 Speers with no signs if casing pressure. They also stated that best accuracy was obtained at 2370fps. I know that accuracy isn't the best at higher speeds all the times but it gives me some extra room to slowly build up to give it a try. It seems from what I have read that getting the Rem core locts up to 2200fps range, approx 200fps over factory velocities on average, really makes this cartridge shine for on game performance at the 200 yard mark and maybe a little beyond. This goes same with the 180g Speers. I have read on more than one site that if you need to run them around the 2300fps mark being a harder constructed bullet. If ran at the 2000fps range I would be better going with the softer, easier expanding, 200g core loct Rems. My problem would be solved if Hornady wasn't so stingy on their Leverution bullets and would start releasing them the the public instead of only in factory loaded ammunition. I am assuming they want to either make their money while they can or are just testing the market to see if there's that big of a demand for this type of application.
 
Quote:
Thanks Wrongtarget. I found that one the other day too.



I see that, missed it!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif Keep at it!!
 
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