243wssm die problem

G

genesis

New member
I just went out to shoot me second batch of loads for my 243wssm ar...they wont run.
The bottom of the case is .557 after running thru the fl die.
Spec is .555.
I am using RCBS die, has anyone run into a die that was out of spec?
I guess my question is should I just go buy a new die and see if it is any better?
 
I had some out of spec dies for my 243wssm, But they were not setting the shoulder back far enough for the minimum headspaced chamber.
 
I have seen both Redding and RCBS dies too long, and I have seen several of the Redding WSSM sizing dies crack! I have never seen it before, but have had more than one customer call and after going through some troubleshooting, found that the die was cracked.
 
If you have an out of spec RCBS die call them it will be replaced at no cost. But be sure it is out of spec double check your measurments.
 

I'm just a dumb old country boy from middle Tn. and just started varmit hunting, so bear with me if I ask elementary questions.
First of all I recently purchased a Remington 700 BDL with a laminated stock, thumbhole, varmit barrell, stainless steel, and vented forearm, with a Leupold VX-III 6.5-20X40 varmit rectile scope.
I purchased a rcbs rock chucker press with all the aminities and would like help getting started.
I realize that there are people who will agree and disagree with my choices, but would appreciate any feedback, positive or negative.
Wendle
 
I dont see any cracks in the die. I think the problem is that it is not sizing down the case far enough at the bottom.
From the bottom of the case up 1/4"it is still unsized.
When the load out of the mag into the breech they get stuck and the bolt wont close 1/4".
I have to hold the charging handle and bounce the butt of the gun on the bench to get it to open and extract the round.
I have the die screwed all the way down touching the shell plate when the press is at full throw and the cartridge still has that bottom 1/4" still exposed out of the die.
Anyways...I am wondering if the die itself is out of spec or I am doing something wrong.
 
BTW this is an AR15 in case that changes any input you guys might have.
The gun shoots incredible when you have first time cartridges thru it.
I would hate to have to buy a bolt gun to shoot the 200 rounds I just made.
 
If and when you send the die to the manufacturer send a couple of fired cases with it. They will either fix the problem or at least tell you what the problem is. Some manufacturers sharpen the reamers too many times and the chamber is smaller than the SAMMI spec.
 
I checked a couple of dies that I had at the shop. One Redding, the other RCBS. I resized cases fired from the same gun, with the same load. The case resized with the Redding die measured .5547" and the one sized with the RCBS measured .5550". I don't know what the upper limit to the spec. is, but the .557" will not fit in a chamber cut with a new reamer.

Dan is correct. It's not unheard of to have a chamber that is on the tight side because of sharpening the chamber reamer either incorrectly or beyond it's useful life. The barrel assemblies that I get from Oly are all chambered just a little short. I use a reamer ground by the same company, to the same specs as the reamer Oly uses, to finish the chamber and headspace it. I am only on my second reamer, but when I have mine resharpened, they are no longer used to finish a chamber.

Your chamber fired cases that I sized with an RCBS die. That die returns the brass to spec, and with .002" less diameter than what you are getting. I would either send the die to RCBS, or to me. I will exchange with you and send the die to my distributor. Let me know if you want the die. I can get it out Monday for you.
 
I was just re-reading some of your earlier post and have something for you to try.

When you say the bolt is about 1/4" from closing, it brings a thought to mind. Take one of your sized cases, not loaded, just sized. Lock the bolt back and drop the sized case into the chamber. See if it actually binds in the camber or if it drops in all the way to the shoulder. You just may not be setting the shoulder back far enough. If the shoulder is 1/2 a thousandth longer than the chamber the bolt can't rotate behind the breach-lugs. As the bolt rotates behind the breach-lugs, the carrier telescopes over the bolt. When the bolt is not allowed to rotate, the carrier is held back......about 1/4". The bolt is just a hair from closing, but the carrier makes it "look" like it's a long way from closing.

Try that and let us know what you find out.
 
Quote:

I have the die screwed all the way down touching the shell plate when the press is at full throw and the cartridge still has that bottom 1/4" still exposed out of the die.




If die is screwed down against shell holder at top of stroke and then, with shell holder backed off tighten die another 1/8 to 1/4 turn to make ram linkage "cam over", you should not have "1/4" of shell casing exposed out of the die". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The die cannot size the base of the case if the case is not entering the die.

Regards,
hm
 
I screwed the die down another 1/4 turn after touching the shellplate and the ram is camming over so that the shell is completely in the die.
I think dtech hit the problem...the shoulder is not pushed back enough. Isn't the fl sizing die supposed to do that?
Its surprising how much the cartridge has expanded after firing than the unfired case.
The wssm seems to change shape alot more than a 223 case.???
 
You lead me astray a little from your original post. This is the most frequent problem when loading for the WSSM used in an AR. The letter that I send with each WSSM build spells that problems out fairly clearly. I had been handloading for 40 years when I started loading for the WSSM for my AR, and it blind-sided me!

Yes, the FL die is made to push the shoulder back to where it needs to be to fit the chamber. Where the problems comes from is the amount of force necessary to set the shoulder back on a WSSM case. Not only is the case MUCH bigger than a .223 case, the brass is also twice as thick as most other brass. When you go to set that shoulder back, the press springs and you get "daylight" between your shell-holder and your die. Where the problem really gets interesting is that if you have your press preloaded a little, but not enough. Then most of your cases will chamber perfectly, but if one doesn't have quite as much lube, or perhaps is a little more work-hardened, that case may be the only one that will spring your press enough to create daylight between the shell-holder and die.

I'm glad you found the problem. The letter I send with the WSSM builds should help, but like Mark Twain wrote: "You can tell someone not to carry a cat home by the tail, but they learn a lot more by actually trying to carry one that way, than by just being told not to do it." I doubt you will ever be fooled by "press spring" again!
 
Quote:
"... I have the die screwed all the way down touching the shell plate when the press is at full throw and the cartridge still has that bottom 1/4" still exposed out of the die.



What kind of press do you have, that will allow 1/4" of
spring?

.
 
Quote:
I screwed the die down another 1/4 turn after touching the shellplate and the ram is camming over so that the shell is completely in the die.
I think dtech hit the problem...the shoulder is not pushed back enough.



Guess I misunderstood, I thought your case lacked 1/4" going into the die and was typing (rather slowly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif) when Mike posted his reply.

Quote:
Isn't the fl sizing die supposed to do that?
Its surprising how much the cartridge has expanded after firing than the unfired case.
The wssm seems to change shape alot more than a 223 case.???




The WSSM cases expand more than the .223 because they are designed to produce up to 65,000# pressure. The extra thick brass cases are also much harder to resize than the thinner .223's which produce a much lower pressure.

The FL die should push shoulder back and bring the expansion ring down on the fired case. If it does not, the die could be at fault, or the die/shell holder combination could be to blame.

When the 7.62 NATO cartridge was first introduced, I built a .308 Win. and I had the exact problem you are having. There was nothing wrong with the dies, but I was using Herter's press at the time and their shell holders were cut much thicker than RCBS & others. That is to say the top of shell holder hit the bottom of the die too soon and I could not set the shoulder back or size base of the case as a result. Since shell holders were cheap, I just faced off the shell holder which allowed the case to go fully into the die.

Setting your die as you have should return the case to proper specs. Since your base is oversize, there is a very good possibility that your shoulder has not been pushed back sufficiently to provide proper headspace, as well. Either condition would produce the condition that Mike suspects.

A great way to check headspace is with the RCBS Precision Mic. Simply insert a once fired case in the case mike and you will know the exact dimensions of your chamber. Then you can set the die to push shoulder back to provide proper headspace (assuming properly cut die and compatible die/shell holder). It does not measure the dia. of expansion ring of case, however.

I personally will not load for a "gas gun" without the Case Mic, as they are very helpful in avoiding chambering problems. In an M1 Garand or M1A, the problem you are experiencing can cause a slam fire due to the free floating firing pin striking the primer, sometimes hard enough to detonate, with the bolt out of battery (not a pleasant experience).

Good luck with resolving the problem soon.

Regards,
hm
 
As usual you have helped greatly!
Thanks for all that helped out on this one.
To answer the question I am using a Dillon 550b press.
Apparently you REALLY have to mash on these cases hard to get them to resize. I hope I got it figured out now.
prairie dogs are in trouble now.
btw...I love my gun Mike,Thanks!
All my buddies are saving pennies as we speak to get theirs.
more wives to dislike you. Actually my wife is no longer satisfied with her 223 and will probably be hollering for her own wssm shortly.
This really is a sickness.
 
Quote:


A great way to check headspace is with the RCBS Precision Mic. Simply insert a once fired case in the case mike and you will know the exact dimensions of your chamber.

Regards,
hm



Actually, dropping one of his cases into an RCBS case mic. will NOT give him the exact dimensions of his chamber. That case is going to be longer than his chamber, and that's why he was having the problems that he was. After some sizing and measuring you will be able to find the exact length of your chamber, and after that, a quick check will be able to tell you if your loading technique is working properly.

That being said, the RCBS case mic. is a great investment for loading. I would not be without them. A very good investment.
 
Quote:
Actually, dropping one of his cases into an RCBS case mic. will NOT give him the exact dimensions of his chamber. That case is going to be longer than his chamber, and that's why he was having the problems that he was.



What am I missing, Mike? The case mic would give you the dimensions of the chamber on a bolt gun (minus, of course, the minor spring back of the case). Is it due to the bolt unlocking on the AR while there is still some pressure in the barrel? If so, that may answer one of the questions I asked you in a PM I sent you a few minutes ago. Hope the letter you referred to in your last post explains this.

My 243WSSM upper came in Friday PM and was on the range Sat. morning. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Still have some load work to do, but looking real good w/only one ladder test done and the barrel quit fowling even before the five shot strings in your breakin procedure. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Regards,
hm
 
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