UP Cougars??

Fellas, It's a common mis-conception that the DNR Released Wolves into Michigan. The Wolves dispersing from Canada, Minnesota and Wisconsin re-established the Michigan population.The Wolf was un-protected in Michigan until 1965. The only attempt to translocate was four wolves from Minnesota to northern Marquette County in 1974 and it was unsuccesful, all four animals were killed within several months. Can you recall this DNR bioligt's name that told the hunters that they would not release any "more" wolves? I am sure many people would have some questions for him. Also what proof is there that they released 2 dozen wolves? Did you or anyone else witness this? If so why was the DNR so sloppy letting the general public see this secret release program? Was it in the news paper? Or DNR press releases? Or just Bar talk? If you can produce proof of it i stand corrected, i just never heard of it.
The groups pushing the Cougar thing in Michigan all have something to gain by doing it. The MWC is selling handbook and seminars on how to live with Cougars, and wanting people to join them in thier conservation efforts. The Cougarnet website is a serious joke, you don't really take that sight seriously do you? They have some rediculous sightings they call proof. They also claim that black panthers exist, if you can find one black panther that has been treed out west or anywhere else with the thousands that are treed every year then fine, but so far it has never been done, because there is no such species.
There is some other SaveCougar sight that is selling T-shirts and tons of other merchandise.
What time of the year did you see your cougar? I am willing to bet there wasn't snow on the ground, because there never is when people see these cougars.
Here is some good reading on this subject: http://www.cougarnet.org/12-06newsletter/IndArticles/Cougar%20Hysteria.pdf

Good luck , and Cougars in Michigan are possible, but not yet proven despite what people "say".
 
Read:
Perf, Here is the "Skull" evidence. http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michskull8-23-04.htm

Other interesting Articles about the scat "evidence" and a few other things people take as credible evidence:

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/Michigan%20Outdoor%20News1-23.htm
"according to two lab workers and the written report that was sent to Rusz. Once determined to be Feline, the scat was never tested for any cougar markers.
Lab manager Tom Moore added, “No other conclusions could be made from the limited testing conducted by the Wyoming Game and Fish lab.”
"
"The Conservancy states that cougar expert Harley Shaw verified photos Rusz took of alleged cougar kill sites. In an interview with Michigan Outdoor News, Shaw denied the verification and said that for reasons similar to Dee Dee Hawk’s he had broken off relations with the Conservancy and asked that his name not be used in connection with its research. "
"An August 2002 attack on livestock in Kalkaska County and an animal sighting by a Monroe County animal control officer in June 2003 produced photos of tracks. In both instances, Rusz identified the tracks as “cougar.” Recently, however, several out-of-state experts, at the request of the Eastern Cougar Network, examined the photos and determined it “unlikely” that a cougar was involved in Kalkaska.
John Young, mammalogist for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, cited several details about the Monroe County track that led him to believe is was “not that of a mountain lion.” Darrell Land and Mark Lotz, biologists on the panther research team for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, went a step further and identified it as the track of a dog. "
"More recently, the Eastern Cougar Network posted a document from Dr. Rusz that summarizes the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy’s “stronger evidence” of a cougar population in Michigan. (http://www.easterncougarnet.org/uppermidwest.htm.)
Among his evidence for Menominee County: “Cougar sighting in 1991 by Jim Ekdahl, then district law supervisor, DNR, now deputy director, DNR.”
Ekdahl has responded: “I have never made a report of a cougar sighting during my DNR career, nor have I ever been contacted by Mr. (sic.) Rusz to discuss whether I ever reported a cougar sighting. Any document or statement to the effect that I made a report of a cougar sighting is erroneous.” "



http://www.easterncougarnet.org/Gray%20Wolf%20Population%20Monitoring%20in%20Michigan%202004.htm

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/Lynx%20a...202003-2004.doc

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michigan8-23-04.htm
 
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Fellas, It's a common mis-conception that the DNR Released Wolves into Michigan. The Wolves dispersing from Canada, Minnesota and Wisconsin re-established the Michigan population.The Wolf was un-protected in Michigan until 1965. The only attempt to translocate was four wolves from Minnesota to northern Marquette County in 1974 and it was unsuccesful, all four animals were killed within several months. Can you recall this DNR bioligt's name that told the hunters that they would not release any "more" wolves? I am sure many people would have some questions for him. Also what proof is there that they released 2 dozen wolves? Did you or anyone else witness this? If so why was the DNR so sloppy letting the general public see this secret release program? Was it in the news paper? Or DNR press releases? Or just Bar talk? If you can produce proof of it i stand corrected, i just never heard of it.
The groups pushing the Cougar thing in Michigan all have something to gain by doing it. The MWC is selling handbook and seminars on how to live with Cougars, and wanting people to join them in thier conservation efforts. The Cougarnet website is a serious joke, you don't really take that sight seriously do you? They have some rediculous sightings they call proof. They also claim that black panthers exist, if you can find one black panther that has been treed out west or anywhere else with the thousands that are treed every year then fine, but so far it has never been done, because there is no such species.
There is some other SaveCougar sight that is selling T-shirts and tons of other merchandise.
What time of the year did you see your cougar? I am willing to bet there wasn't snow on the ground, because there never is when people see these cougars.
Here is some good reading on this subject: http://www.cougarnet.org/12-06newsletter/IndArticles/Cougar%20Hysteria.pdf

Good luck , and Cougars in Michigan are possible, but not yet proven despite what people "say".




Let me get this right. I have to prove things to you, otherwise it's unfit for you to consider as credible evidence? To put it politely, pound sand. People like you won't believe anyone or anything, unless the MI DNR tells you that it is so. This type of arrogant behavior is typical of the mindless little minions that feel that the MI DNR can do no wrong. You do the research. I already know the answers and I sure as He** don't have anything to prove to you. MI VHNTR
 
BenVW,
You have obviously done a very impressive job of research and I appreciate your using links to reinforce the valid points you made. Not unexpectedly, Mr. I.M. RIGHT has tried to divert the subject from cougars to wolves and onto bashing the MDNR. OH...add anger and name-calling to that. "The groups pushing the Cougar thing in Michigan all have something to gain by doing it." EXACTLY!!! It's time to quit beating this dead horse(not cougar-LOL) until someone with wildlife credentials has something more of substance(PROOF) to add. Until that happens, cougars in Michigan should be considered an unban legend.
 
The Michigan DNR does a good job overall. Introducing game or predators in not an exact science, they win with some and some go wrong. As far as cougars in the UP, I believe the are in the lower Pen. also, there is a ton of evidence and it has been studied several times.. You have to ask yourself to we REALLY want them to admit the cougar is here? Be careful what you wish for. If they admitt we have a limited number of cougars in Michigans Upper or Lower Peninsula, the federal endangered species act will be put in play. Remember the Spotted Owl? If you have an endangered species you must set aside lands for it, you must protect it's food source, you have to count them and create an administrative structure to protect them. Soooo, When you go to go out in the woods you find it is an endangered species area, no ORVs, no deer hunting in their area and the DNR's minimal budget goes to cougar protection.
My opinion, talk about them with your buddies around the campfire, speculate in the gun shop, but don't make a spectical out of it and don't pressure the DNR to admit they are there. I have found tracks east of Traverse City, didn't call the news paper, kept pictures to my friends, I like deer hunting.
Envoking the endangered species act is a tactic of the anti hunters, don't do their work for them.
Ganderman
 
Gander, what evidence are you talking about? The DNR has put a thing about cougars on thier website, i think it's just to shut up all the people that are pressuring them to admit we have Cougars here. Do you really think a Cougar could servive in the lower? How would they get there? Where do they spend the day? why hasen't a deer kill been found since they eat a deer about once a week. Hard to believe a hunter or anyone else hasn't come arcoss one. It can take a Cougar 3 days to finish a deer, imagine how many tracks that would leave in the snow. How many do you think would have to be in the lower to re-produce and not be inbred? On average how many cubs survive thier 1st year? Do you know what the "Big Cat Act of 1999 is? if so, what kind of impact would that have on a potential cat being released?

Thanks mifox. Ya, it's a common connection between the big bad wolves and the cougars that the DNR is covering up. It must be amazing the amount of money & time the DNR spends on cover-ups and breaking the thumbs of the people that squeal on their secret large predator projects, No wonder they are raising lisence fees.
It's clear to see the hysteria connected with any large predator like the wolf or cougar. People get defensive when you ask them to back up thier claims. It's not a personal attack on anyone that claims to see a Cougar, but after over a 1000 sightings a year and nobody can produce evidence of the encounter it starts to get a little fishy to me. Cougars are illusive, but they don't have super powers, they are instinct driven mechanisms.
Even People in Europe have black panther and cougar sightings, even though the Cougar does not exist there, but still there are lots of sightings of them, it's an interesting phenominon.


Mi vhntr, LOL, So i didn't catch the DNR guys name that said they released wolves? If you post about these things then you open yourself to questions, you can plead the 5th if you want, but i don't understand why you posted in the 1st place then.
Once again nobody says a cougar couldn't find it's way to the Yoop, it's possible, but nobody has proven this has happened yet.
 
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Perhaps you read the links posted that gave the other side of the story? Then again, it's painfully obvious that you didn't. It will go against the denial doctrine that you have been preaching, so it was ignored.

"Whatever you call the cat, it is a name that MDNR spokespeople have been reluctant to utter in public. The cougar has been considered officially extinct in Michigan since 1906, although the animal has been spotted there with amazing frequency over the years. Recently, a multi-year study by the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy, a private conservation group, purported to have produced DNA evidence that the big cat still exists in Michigan as a small breeding population. This hypothesis also is based on 50-some years of reported sightings from biologists, forestry workers, experienced woodsmen and even MDNR employees."


"A week later, on a neighboring farm, the mysterious predator tried to tackle a full-grown quarter horse, leaving telltale claw marks high on the horse's back. The animal also left behind palm-sized pugmarks in the dirt surrounding the corral. Michigan Department of Natural Resources (MDNR) biologist Tim Webb told local press the tracks were those of a "large feral cat" that probably exceeded 100 pounds. That could mean only one thing: a cougar, a.k.a. puma and mountain lion."


"MDNR's reaction was "so what?" Officials leaned on the theory that Michigan cougars are free-roaming former pets or stray wild animals from elsewhere—anything but an established, breeding cougar colony. "Our position, very simply and very clearly, is this," says Brad Wurfel, MDNR press secretary. "We acknowledge that there may be some individual cougars roaming the state's wild, and perhaps not-so-wild, areas. However, we have no physical proof of a viable resident cougar population."


From another article:

" In January 2005, the Michigan DNR announced that hair samples retrieved from a car bumper the previous November came from a cougar. The hairs were retrieved by a state trooper after a motorist reported hitting "a large cat ".

The incident occurred in southern Menominee County, not far from the Wisconsin border. The samples were forwarded to a lab at Central Michigan University for analysis, which confirmed them as "cougar" (genotype unknown).

" This is exactly the kind of information we are looking for to gain a better understanding of what animals are present in Michigan and identify potential areas for additional work," said DNR Natural Heritage Unit Supervisor Ray Rustem. "Though the information indicates the presence of a cougar, it still does not confirm the presence of a breeding population in Michigan. "

mifox, it seems that you have tied the cougar and the wolf together by denying the existance of either species in areas of MI. I have made no attempt to divert attention from cougars to wolves. As a matter of fact, here's a quote from mifox himself: " OH...and yes I do know that wolves are in the lower.....NOT "too."(LOL)" Again, your words, not mine. Denial, denial, and more denial. Deny it enough and you think that it'll become true. Wolves or cougars, just keep on denying it and someone will believe it.
One more thing mifox, you have started with the name-calling nonsense, not me. This is typical though. You cannot refute the message, so you attack the messenger.

Then again, since you obviously did not read any of the links that I posted, you would not have seen that some MI DNR employees have also confirmed the existance of the cougar here. So are they all liars(MI DNR employees included) or did they just hear "bar talk"? Again, here's the proof. Are you going to start the typical harassment, insults, belittling, denial, insinuations and negative comments? Or is it time for the typical "I don't accept the proof, because I didn't see it?" Perhaps these sources and people aren't credible enough for your lofty standards? No matter what, the proof is right in front of you. Deny it if you want to, but even the MI DNR has employees, biologists yet, that confirm the existance of the cougar. Being so closed minded is not a good thing.
Further, I find no need for "bashing the MI DNR". Their actions speak for themselves. I do have the right to comment on their actions however. This is America after all. Or do you think that this is not allowed because you are so narrow-minded and blindly accept anything that they say or do as being 100% correct?


BenVW, you can do the research on MI DNR public meetings and get the information. It's out there, but you'll have to work for it. While you're at it, show me the proof that all of the cougar sightings are false. You can furnish names, dates, etc. and complete information disproving any, and all, claims.

MI VHNTR
 
Sorry i asked you to back up your claims, The "other side" still can not produce evidence of a Cougar.. . The other side are groups trying to profit from this cougar thing, and made crazy claims and have taken quotes out of contex to fit thier needs. The DNR does not admit to a breeding "wild" popluation, and that is the question. Are the same employees that admit that thier is proof of cougars in Michigan the same people that you claim released wolves? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Read my 2nd post with the Quotes, this can answer some of your quotes.
As far as The Scat samples from the MWC.... learn about all the fraud they have been guilty of and i don't know how anyone with half a brain could trust this group. They have house cats on thier website and call them Cougars for goodness sake. The people that origanally did the testing will not deal with them anymore. Having the MWC behind a scat collection isn't any different than a Prosecuter go out to a crime scene and collect thier own evidence then show it in court, instead of a REAL investigator going out and finding it then showing what they have found in an unbiased way. The MWC will not say who found it, when, or where, if this doesn't raise a red flag then nothing will. The MWC people are Not wildlife Bioligts, they are a conservation org trying to preserve land, now why do you think they are going through all the trouble to prove cougars are in Michigan?
You believe someone could go into the woods and find cougar crap but not find any other evidence?
I am still looking for the DNR guys name they said they planted wolves, or even where it was and when, then we can figured out who was on duty. I am waiting.... I just want to see if you made it up or not.
The only "evidence" that really makes me think a little its the Car/Cougar fur sample. It sounds like conctrete evidence, but... if someone hit an animal in the Yoop and had to call the police to come out you would think there would be some serious damage to the vehicle. If they guy called the officer to come out because he thought he hit a cougar then where is the rest of the investigation? If it was hit hard enough to have fur remain with the car, it would leave a wounded Cougar near by. But No hounds where put to track this potentially dangerous wounded 100+ pound cat? They went through the trouble to take fur off the car and send it in to be checked if it was a cougar but did not go through the trouble to find the actual cat? Do you know if there is a % of error with the fur test? There was a Wallaby (small kangaroo) hit by a car and killed near my house a few years ago, so anything is possible.
Yes, pets do get released, I worked in the pet industry for a while, you would not believe the animals that were being found in Michigan, Allegators, Pirahnas, Boas, to name a few.
Learn about the big cat act of 1999. Tell me what you think about that. Even still, not a single pet has been found either, so it proves nothing.
Good luck, and chill out a little, nobody meant to hurt your feelings, you can believe whatever you want, but if it is dumb then we can make fun of it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Just kidding pal.
 
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I agree that we ought to lighten up. After all we are Michigan sportsmen who have much more in common than a difference of opinion on cougars. Being critical of one another's perceptions and opinions unfortunately has led to anger and ridicule. We can save that for the anti's(LOL). Let's stay on the high ground here...eh? I think we've all made our points and it's best to agree to disagree about cougars in Michigan and move on.
 
I'll just poke one hole in your little diatribe. It's just too easy.

If it was hit hard enough to have fur remain with the car, it would leave a wounded Cougar near by.

This is a real easy one to answer. I can't believe that it has slipped by you, especially since you've "worked in the pet industry for a while". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif Have you ever seen deer, or other animals, hit by cars, or bullets, arrows etc., get up and run, never to be found? In the meantime, they continue to live normally after these incidents.



The rest is the typical canned response. The answer doesn't fit your needs, so you will not accept any part of it. Next, you'll let me provide you with more information so that you can determine if it's credible enough for your standards. Again, it won't be acceptable because of some silly excuse. Then the snide remarks will come, followed by the cheap jabs. The whole thing sounds like the usual canned responses from another board frequented by outdoors people such as yourself.
In the meantime, you've not provided any logical information to disprove the cougar claims. Just inuendo and aimless rambling.

Good luck, and chill out a little, nobody meant to hurt your feelings, you can believe whatever you want, but if it is dumb then we can make fun of it Just kidding pal.



You cannot hurt my feelings one little bit. You have said the following: "you can believe whatever you want, but if it is dumb then we can make fun of it." Well, the same goes here.
You see, people like you from under the bridge think that "up north" is around the Gaylord area. BTW, aren't those "Up North" t-shirts great proof of your rugged outdoors conquests? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif The "wilderness" is what's construed to be the region beyond the string that they have tied to their waist that goes back to their little SUV. This is so they can find their way back to the car after their rough "wilderness outing." After their harrowing experiences in the vast unknown, they go back to their suburban homes and relate all of their death defying acts to anyone that will listen to them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif MI VHNTR
 
Wow, Ok bud, what are you talking about? What T-shirts? Conquests? I think what about up north? People like me? String around the waist? LOL! It's obvious you have issues, and there is little point in debating something with you when you wont back up your claims. You are the one that didn't know that the Wolves were Not planted, so please don't tell us that you are an expert woodsman or some Super Yooper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
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I learned years ago that the MI DNR would tell the truth only as they saw fit, or to the extent that they thought it would fit their needs. I clearly remember listening to a MI DNR wildlife biologist say to a group of hunters that the MI DNR would not release any more wolves in the UP of MI. The thing is, the MI DNR released 2 dozen more of the wolves less than a week later. Yup, I'll sure take the word of a MI DNR wildlife biologist as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm smart enough not to be duped by their regurgitated hogwash. Others don't fare as well, or can't think for themselves.




Still are not going to give the name of the guy you CLEARLY remember listing to? Not going to debate it anymore, I just want a name, place, time.


Take care of yourself.
 
YAWN, SOS from an "expert" that worked in the pet industry for a while. It's obvious that no amount of information will ever be acceptable to you, since this is but one of your areas of expertise. You have kept on dismissing anything and everything put in front of you piece-meal. Denial, denial and more denial. Yet, you fail to provide one shred of any information to support your position. Again, you want information? You look it up.

You will continue to reject anything that doesn't fit into your vast wildlife/wilderness explorer background. Your mind must have run amok while you were shoveling sh*t out of the cages, didn't it? MI VHNTR
 
I've lurking on the sidelines reading what followed after I posted my brief peacekeeping message and HO-LEE COW! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I'm trying to understand why on earth you two get so thoroughly PO'd at at each other just because one doesn't see eye to eye with the other on this issue? Maybe it's like politics and religion? I know fellow hunters who get along great, but have different political and/or religious affiliations and when those two subjects come up, if words could kill, they'd all be dead.
IMHO the existence of cougars in Michigan is relatively insignificant. You guys think your dispute is worth the public spectacle you're making of each other here? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Take the high road on this guys. One believes cougars are in Michigan and the other one doesn't. It sure doesn't sound like either of you is interested in pondering what the other guy has to say so maybe the best thing is to quit fanning the flames and go home. Cheers to both of you fine outdoorsmen. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Oh sure, start the debate, back out then come back then take the "high ground":) . I tried to stop the debate before you, I even told him we did not mean to hurt his feelings and i was done.
If you re-read past posts and his insults to me and you i think it's unfair to put me in the same catagory as that guy. I thought i was pretty nice considering the negative assumpitons and comments he made about me, my vehicle, my outdoor conquests, my T-shirt fashions, my past employment, my place of residence ect.... This is all after i simply posted some articles backing up my claims. I think i said he had issues and that he was not a "super yooper", and only after his insulting comments about me. but i thought i tried to stay on the topic as much as possible considering this type of a debate.
I am sorry to disapoint you mifox, you seem like a good dude /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Happy Hunting Finest outdoorsmen /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I live in the Houghton county area and my Parents live in the Misery Bay area and I have seen three. two of them were crossing the road on different days they might have been the same one for all I know I just saw the long tails when they were going into the brush.And the third one was stocking me while I was trapping the Little Elm river. I remember it like it was yesterday.
I was setting traps for otter and beaver and I was looking at a run that was coming off of a bank into the water and all of a sudden I had the most uneasy feeling come over me. I felt like I was being watched then I heard swishing on the leaves not like a deer or tree rat this was different. I started pulling my 9mm while I turned and that is when I saw a big cat with fawn colored fur and a tail about 4 feet long go up the side of a bank . I dont think it helped me any that I had on a white hooded sweatshirt. I have trapped in wi. were they had planted a pack of wolves and I never felt like the way I felt when that cat was behind me.
I also heard that a woman that I had worked with her husband was bow hunting deer in Ontanogan on its like CRP land open to hunting he watched a DNR truck pull up with two cages on a trailer and let two cougars go he was P/O.

T
 
forty_five_packer, nice to see another UP hunter on PM. Welcome aboard!
I have no doubt as to what you have seen, ie. cougars. They are here, contrary to what some of the "outdoorspeople" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif below the bridge think. MI VHNTR
 
I'm not sure where it was, but did'nt a MI State Policeman get video of one crossing in front his car several months back.
Hmmm.... cougars, wolves...aliens. Is'nt denial a beautiful thing!
 
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......he watched a DNR truck pull up with two cages on a trailer and let two cougars go he was P/O.

T



He musta been drunk too because he was hallucinating. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
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