Problem with open reed mouth calls?

GJJ

New member
I have the Primos lil dog and hot dog. They seem like good calls. I can simulate the sound of a dying rabbit pretty well. My only complaint is that they are loud. There does not seem to be an easy way to blow them softly as an animal in distress.

Has anyone else run into this problem?
 
Do you cup your hand over teh outlet end? or even block part of the opening with a finger tip.
Another hint is use your front top teeth gently on the reed to modulate the sound.
Carl
 
Yes. I do cup my hand over the end. I seems like you really have to blow hard to reach the point where the call works.
 
Sounds like Redfrog calls just like me. I LOVE a loud predator call for coyotes. Iffen ya need a coaxer, carry a squeeze bulb type mouse squeaker. I use a lip squeak for close up work myself.
 
Quote:
Yes. I do cup my hand over the end. I seems like you really have to blow hard to reach the point where the call works.



Understanding that the Hot Dog mouthpiece is designed for a howler and is similar to the Dan Thompson mouthpiece, I would agree that it probably takes alot of air to get it to start producing sound. I don't know anything about the Lil Dog mouthpiece, but I assume it's original design is for a howler...not distress.

I'd focus on finding an open reed call that is designed for distress and save the howler mouthpieces for what their main intent is. I think you'd be much happier and quite suprised on how little of air a well designed open reed distress call requires.

Tony
 
You want loud. Take your average jack rabbit and put him in a position of pain, it makes all my open reed calls sound like they are in a vaccuum.
 
GJJ, there a couple of schools of thought regarding call volume. There are at least two components to the distress call, terror and panic for distance and despair for enticing them closer.
I call the way you apparently do and call at reduced volume the majority of time on a stand if I know coyotes are relatively close. I have a stash of reeds from which I select the sound and volume I want, just as I have for my closed reed calls. For maximum control at lower volume I modify the reeds from E.L.K for their "Yotebuster" call.
Good luck.
 
Tony most definitely is correct about the Hot Dog.
I never used that mouthpiece for distress, unless I was fighting strong winds.
The Lil Dog has a much smaller trough, & is designed for distress & howling.

GJJ: a few questions, if you will... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

#1: How much attention did you pay to the mini-CD that should have came with the calls? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Since I don't have it playing here at my side, I can only paraphrase what is stated on it:
The white toneboard is designed for "Mid-range" howling, as well as medium to long range distress sounds.
The green toneboard is designed for close-range distress sounds, & softer howling...such as for making turkeys "shock-gobble".
Trust me, it doesn't take much air to use that green 'board. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

#2: You say you are cupping your hand over the end of the calls.
BUT, are you trying to make distress sounds with or without the "horn" attached? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Without the horn attached, you should have very little trouble getting quite soft sounds out of that call, especially the green 'board.

#3: Are you only judging the "loud volume" by what you hear, yourself, as you are blowing the calls? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Or, are you judging the volume by having someone listen to you from a couple hundred yards away from you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif[while practicing, of course] /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
Admittedly, coyotes can hear several times better than us humans. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
But, what sounds extremely loud to us...as we blow the call...is going to sound different the farther the sound gets from us. And we normally want those dying critter sounds to reach out a few hundred yards, @ least. At least I do. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The above is only my opinion & experiences over a few years of using the Primos/R.A. calls. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
I'm just a lowly novice, but those calls brought in a number of coyotes for me, before I switched to the custom made calls from call makers here on P.M., this past year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Now, they will spend most of their time sitting on my shelf colloecting dust, since none compare to the customs I have. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
I have the Lil-Dogs and use them a lot. I hardly ever use the cone on them. Both make good distress sounds. Green is better for softer rabbit distress calls, pup distress, and bird distress. White is better for howling, fawn distress, and louder jackrabbit distress.
 
Have you ever tried a Critr call standard? They are a great open reed call, easy to blow and will go pretty loud too if you want. Also makes good pup distress sounds and other coyote sounds. Plus it's only around 10 bucks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It's obviously my favorite call lol.
 
"There are at least two components to the distress call, terror and panic for distance and despair for enticing them closer."

Rich, will you answer a few questions for me?

I doubt I would be able to differentiate between, terror and despair in an animal that is caught by a predator. How does one differ from the other?

What if I were inadvertently blowing "terror and panic" when a coyote came into the "despair" zone? would he then leave or would he stick around until I corrected my self and began blowing "despair".

Does this only work for "urban " coyotes in your area, or for wild ones too?

Sounds like you are much more fine tuned than I am. I just try to sound as pitiful and scared and terrified as I can.

Thanks for the help. Just goes to show, a person is never to old to learn something here./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Thanks for all the replies. I should have been more clear about the hot dog. I really don't use it much for distress sounds.

The green lil dog is what I use for distress primarily. Maybe they don't sound so loud at 100 yards.

Many people say the biggest mistake people make with ecallers is calling too loud. I used to have a Foxpro. Given my understanding of a coyotes hearing ability, I always ran it much lower than the volumes I am seeing with the lil dog.

I didn't like the Foxpro FX3 for a couple reasons. It feels better to make the sound yourself that brings in the coyote. I also thought that many of the sounds on the foxpro did not sound realistic and/or echo-y. Some of the Mark II sounds were good. But, the coyote vocalizations seemed especially poor on the Foxpro.

I used to put the Foxpro away from me and let it run continuously on a relatively low volume. Maybe it is not such a big deal to use a louder handcall because you do not blow it continually.
 
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GJJ I have both the calls you are talking about. When I do a distress on the lil dogs I use the green mouth piece without the horn. The horn is mostly for howling. It makes it sound to raspy I think. I did call in a coyote with the white lil dog with the horn doing a cotton tail distress. Kinda sounded like a bear squal. Good Luck

Die Hard
 

Redfrog's post
"There are at least two components to the distress call, terror and panic for distance and despair for enticing them closer."

"Rich, will you answer a few questions for me?"

Yes Sir.

"I doubt I would be able to differentiate between, terror and despair in an animal that is caught by a predator. How does one differ from the other?"

Distress cries are emitted by animals that have been injured or extremely frightened. They do not neccessarily have to be caught by a predator.
Think injured puppy. Panicked, terror stricken shreiks initially which segue into yelps and then into moans and whimpers. The panic/terror component is very loud and good for distance and the despair componant is easy to reproduce on a handcall for extended periods and is great for enticing cautious animals. Goat kids caught in fences(happens all the time) go through the same process, as do the young of many other animals. Incidentally, Vern Howey doesn't use or advocate the use of the panic and terror componant in rabbit or fawn disress and explains why in his video"Calling the Elusive Coyote".

"What if I were inadvertently blowing "terror and panic" when a coyote came into the "despair" zone? would he then leave or would he stick around until I corrected my self and began blowing "despair"."

If you were "inadvertantly blowing terror and panic" you are in need of more help than I can provide here. I give instruction for a reasonable fee and would gladly accomodate you at next years PM Banquet.
I do not know if a coyote would leave or stick around after you began "Blowing Despair". That would depend on what Despair looked like and the coyotes sense of humor.

"Does this only work for "urban " coyotes in your area, or for wild ones too?"

It works for all coyotes simply because a coyote's behavior is most greatly influenced by it's individual environment and it's most recent experiences. If an urban coyote is generally unmolested and rarely called they will respond to most any distress sound with reckless abandon and great enthusiasm just as they do on the plains of Saskatchewan and behind the locked gates of north Texas ranches. Heavily pressured coyotes may come crawling in on their bellies like a cat and must be patiently seduced( KeeKee and Tyler videoed a coyote approaching like that inside Scottsdale city limits 2 years ago) ragardless of geography.

"Sounds like you are much more fine tuned than I am. I just try to sound as pitiful and scared and terrified as I can."

I call all year long 52 weeks a year and enter as many stage calling and field contests as I can, as does my son Tyler, shown here.
IMG_0109.jpg


"Thanks for the help. Just goes to show, a person is never to old to learn something here."
You are very welcome, Redfrog. In that spirit may I offer, for your edification, that "to" is a preposition meaning toward, whereas "too" is an adverb meaning more than enough as used within the context of your sentence and should have read "never too old". No charge, Sir.
 
Rich, Somthimg is out of place. Thats only two of the boxes of trophies, where are the other three boxes and dont forget the key chains Rich Miller speaks so highly about....
steve
 
Thanks for the reply Rich! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
That's what I thought you meant. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And as far as the cheap shots and the "no charge"

Priceless. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Ya know Rich, it is really getting harder and harder to take you seriously. You seem to want people to think that you have this great volume of knowledge that you want to share. And yet when asked a question you begin with some information , but quickly revert back to Higgins we know so well.
I was at Globe the last time you gave a lecture/ seminar, whatever. I remember it well. Now you were very much under the weather, but there were some things that you said about using coyote vocals that were way out of whack. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

I didn't bother asking you to explain your theories as you were indeed not feeling well. I'm sure you're feeling better by now, but after your last attempt to educate me here, I won't be looking for your "gems of knowledge" anytime soon. I'll be looking too someone with pics of dead coyotes for information.
 
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