dogcatcher223
New member
Any of you guys ever shoot coyotes etc with a FMJ? Seems to me there would be no hole to contend with, but would it stop a coyote or just wound? I think it would be ideal for fox and cat though. Just curious, thanks!
Full metal jacket for coyotes etc????
- Thread starter dogcatcher223
- Start date
In a lot of states they aren't legal for hunting.
Performance is very unpredictable. Might get a pencil hole through, might leave a huge crater on exit.
Performance is very unpredictable. Might get a pencil hole through, might leave a huge crater on exit.
dogcatcher223
New member
I also thought the world had some sort of agreement to not use expanding bullets on each others soldiers. Imagine a soldier getting smoked with a hollow point or V-max?
Jerry White
New member
I have heard that for years. Doesn't have much truth to it really. Sounds cool,but not true. Any enemy we have ever faught,doesn't have the same beliefs we do. They will not drag a wounded fellow serviceman to safety if wounded. They will reach down and blow his head off and help him to die faster. So the old, Wound one,take 3 out of action saying,is a complete falacy. Just a dream someone made up.
Fmj is a product of design. The military needed to fill a new caliber/infantry weapon design order.
Have a 20 round magazine.
Weigh less than 6 pounds loaded.
Have selective fire capability.
Fire a round able to penetrate a standard steel helmet, body armor or 3.4mm-thick steel plate out to 500 meters.
Info
Can't wounded soldiers fire back? LOL
jerryboy
BroncoGlenn
New member
First, as to hunting with FMJ ammo, just say "No!" FMJ is a bad choice as it doesn't have reliable terminal effectiveness, and is very prone to ricochet that can send a round a very long ways in a very undesireable direction.
As to the whole thing about military use--the urban legends still abound. Here's the real deal:
The military likes the FMJ ammo because it feeds reliably and is cheaper to produce than hollow or softpoints.
There is no NATO treaty or Geneva convention that requires the use of FMJ ammo. There was a Hauge landwar convention that the signers agreed to use only FMJ ammo, but guess what? The US did not sign that agreement, hence US forces can use whatever ammo they want. On the flip side, any country that did sign that agreement need not adhere to it if they are at war against the US. Many special force units use hollowpoints depending on their mission.
As to the whole thing about military use--the urban legends still abound. Here's the real deal:
The military likes the FMJ ammo because it feeds reliably and is cheaper to produce than hollow or softpoints.
There is no NATO treaty or Geneva convention that requires the use of FMJ ammo. There was a Hauge landwar convention that the signers agreed to use only FMJ ammo, but guess what? The US did not sign that agreement, hence US forces can use whatever ammo they want. On the flip side, any country that did sign that agreement need not adhere to it if they are at war against the US. Many special force units use hollowpoints depending on their mission.
Jerry White
New member
Some very light JSP or JHP rounds will still fragment because their jackets are so thin and their velocity is much higher (up to 3800 fps in 40gr rounds), but this does not necessarily make their wounding capacity more dramatic than M193 or M855 primarily because the fragmentation is less dramatic.
Hollow-point and ballistic-tip bullets are designed as varmint rounds, to expand quickly, making large, shallow wounds with relatively little penetration. These types of wounds aren't likely to take an attacker out of the fight immediately, especially if you have to shoot through an arm or from the side. Most experts agree that at least 12 inches of penetration is required to reliably reach the vital organs and most varmint bullets won't penetrate more than 5 to 6 inches. Although some police departments use the Hornady TAP ("Tactical Application Police") round, which is merely a hotter-loaded V-Max varmint round, the primary motivation for adopting this ammo is preventing over-penetration of both bad guys and of interior walls. It should be noted that many of these concerns are proving unfounded as testing on interior penetration is increasingly showing that 5.56 rounds are less of a overpenetration risk than even the 9mm handgun ammo that many departments deploy in submachineguns for interior raids.
The advantage of heavier (64, 69 and 69+ grain) JHP and JSP is that they will exhibit controlled expansion at slower velocities (and therefore have better wounding potential) than FMJ rounds at distance. This really starts to kick in after around 200 meters or so if you are dealing with a 20" barrel. After that distance, most rounds are below the 2500-2700 fragmentation threshold, and though FMJ rounds will tumble, it's not clear that this will be as effective as a good controlled expansion round.
Lighter JSP and JHP rounds probably aren't as effective after passing through a soft medium, like an arm. In these cases FMJ will usually retain more penetration ability than the light JSP and JHP rounds.
If you plan on using specialty rounds make sure to stick with heavier round. Some specialty rounds that have seen good results in gel, including penetration and fragmentation criteria, include:
64 gr Winchester (RA223T2).
68 gr Black Hills "Heavy" Match (BTHP).
69 gr Match King loadings.
75 gr Hornady Match (BTHP)
75 gr TAP (BTHP)
77 gr Black Hills Sierra Match King (BTHP)
In particular 70+ grain rounds often maintain their fragmentation properties far beyond the fragmentation range of M855 and M193.
Ammo Oracle at AR15.com
info jerryboy
Hollow-point and ballistic-tip bullets are designed as varmint rounds, to expand quickly, making large, shallow wounds with relatively little penetration. These types of wounds aren't likely to take an attacker out of the fight immediately, especially if you have to shoot through an arm or from the side. Most experts agree that at least 12 inches of penetration is required to reliably reach the vital organs and most varmint bullets won't penetrate more than 5 to 6 inches. Although some police departments use the Hornady TAP ("Tactical Application Police") round, which is merely a hotter-loaded V-Max varmint round, the primary motivation for adopting this ammo is preventing over-penetration of both bad guys and of interior walls. It should be noted that many of these concerns are proving unfounded as testing on interior penetration is increasingly showing that 5.56 rounds are less of a overpenetration risk than even the 9mm handgun ammo that many departments deploy in submachineguns for interior raids.
The advantage of heavier (64, 69 and 69+ grain) JHP and JSP is that they will exhibit controlled expansion at slower velocities (and therefore have better wounding potential) than FMJ rounds at distance. This really starts to kick in after around 200 meters or so if you are dealing with a 20" barrel. After that distance, most rounds are below the 2500-2700 fragmentation threshold, and though FMJ rounds will tumble, it's not clear that this will be as effective as a good controlled expansion round.
Lighter JSP and JHP rounds probably aren't as effective after passing through a soft medium, like an arm. In these cases FMJ will usually retain more penetration ability than the light JSP and JHP rounds.
If you plan on using specialty rounds make sure to stick with heavier round. Some specialty rounds that have seen good results in gel, including penetration and fragmentation criteria, include:
64 gr Winchester (RA223T2).
68 gr Black Hills "Heavy" Match (BTHP).
69 gr Match King loadings.
75 gr Hornady Match (BTHP)
75 gr TAP (BTHP)
77 gr Black Hills Sierra Match King (BTHP)
In particular 70+ grain rounds often maintain their fragmentation properties far beyond the fragmentation range of M855 and M193.
Ammo Oracle at AR15.com
info jerryboy
Jason El Paso
Active member
FMJ not a good idea, just think about cutting butter.
FMJ for hunting? Forget it. Why would you use fmj when ther are so maney other bullets that do a much better job? A little example of this would be a time I took out a rem700 that i had built in 308 to shoot the Federal Gold Metal Match round. This is avery accurate Tactical rifle with a Leapold Mark 4. I had the load and rifle diled in all the way out to 800yrds with the scope mill dot system. I thought to myself I would take this rig iut and give the coyotes hell. I center punched two the next day and all that round did was to leave a 308 hole going in and a 308 hole going out. FMJ forget it for hunting, they are best left to punching paper.
Jerry White
New member
Yes, I agree. They are made to penetrate past the depth of a coyote LOL. I shot one with a Win Q3131a at 100 yards. It knocked his chest to the ground and I heard a loud pop. He ran in a circle and was looking for where the thunder came from.
He ended up running at least 400 yards. I found him the next day and he had a pin hole in his chest and an exit the size of both my fists. A friend asked what the heck shot that, I showed him a winQ3131a. I had put 3 on the bottom of the mag and shot the top 3 that day before I shot that one. I was amazed at the size of the hole on exit. I could see where the bullet yawed and fragged . There was a perfect shape of a 224 round and it funneled outward as the exit grew in size. Nasty. Much better choices for popping or little furry pals,jerryboy
He ended up running at least 400 yards. I found him the next day and he had a pin hole in his chest and an exit the size of both my fists. A friend asked what the heck shot that, I showed him a winQ3131a. I had put 3 on the bottom of the mag and shot the top 3 that day before I shot that one. I was amazed at the size of the hole on exit. I could see where the bullet yawed and fragged . There was a perfect shape of a 224 round and it funneled outward as the exit grew in size. Nasty. Much better choices for popping or little furry pals,jerryboy
greenjeans
New member
The way I understand the FMJ to work effectively, is to have a larger bodied target. As the bullet enters, the base is heavier than the nose of the bullet, (which is now unstabilzed) so the base and nose reverse positions. Now the base is leading the way into the tissue, which causes the nasty exit wounds. If you hit critter too small, the bullet has no chance to tumble, and goes straight through. I don't know that for fact, but it makes sense to me. If anyone can give me a better explanation, bring it on. I'm always open to learning something new. That why I play on this board all the time.
GJ
GJ
Jerry White
New member
You pretty much got it straight Greenjeans, they are unpredictable. With the 55grFMJ,when it turns sideways,is when it fragments from the cannilure.
Many 223 hunting bullets wouldn't be able to do the things a FMJ was designed to do,ie;punch helmets at 500 . I'm not saying a 55V-max wouldn't kill a man at 500,just not through a day pack,shirts,and deep enough to destroy enough inside to drop a man. I'm sure it wouldn't feel too good,but nothing like a FMJ LOL jerryboy
Many 223 hunting bullets wouldn't be able to do the things a FMJ was designed to do,ie;punch helmets at 500 . I'm not saying a 55V-max wouldn't kill a man at 500,just not through a day pack,shirts,and deep enough to destroy enough inside to drop a man. I'm sure it wouldn't feel too good,but nothing like a FMJ LOL jerryboy
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
On top of all else, FMJ bullets are normally the least accurate of all choices.
Jack
Jack
Jerry White
New member
I agree
jerryboy
jerryboy
One of my duties as garbage dump supervisor and dozer operator in Chu Li, Vietnam around 1968 was to eradicate the stray dog population as there was a serious rabies problem. All my shots had to be to the body as they didn't want the brain cavity openned. I never stopped a dog with less than two shots and some took 5 or 6. I had to recover all carcasses so had to keep shooting till they went down. Needles to say I had little faith in the m-16 as a battle weapon and packed a shotgun when I went on patrols, which I never had to use.
Leave the FMJ's for paper punching.
AWS
Leave the FMJ's for paper punching.
AWS