221 Fireball

quarterbore

New member
I want a 221 Fireball bad. I want to build a rifle bad. I have limited experence with both. I would like to use 25-35 grain bullets in reduced load for small game and full house 40grain B-tips for fox and coyotes. Shots will be less than 150 and mostly at night. I cant find a Rem short action used for much less than a new gun. I am wondering if I should keep searching for a used action or buy new. I am looking to have Pac-nor rebarrel. They do this with a Holland lug in supermatch grade for $420.00 with everything squared.I have heard their barrels are one of the best, but have no idea about customer service. My thought is it should be good because it is their name on the barrel. I was thinking of buying a laminate stock and glass and pillar bed myself. I have had excellent luck with Holland trigger spring kits. They drop a Rem trigger down to around 2 perfect pounds. I want to keep the gun under $1000.00. I have a 22-250 and a 25-06 that shoot under .5 with with five shots. The 06 is sporter weight and the 250 is a 700VS. I want a lighter gun for multiple sets. I began looking at a model 7 stainless in 223. Having the barrel set back, action squred and lugs lapped and rechambering the factory barrel. The stock does not appear to be the crappy injection molded type. If I can, I would pillar and glass the factory stock. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Remington action is the only option. I am considering a Burris 4-16X42 with illuminated reticle in loopy rings and bases. I reload. Questions is the factory gun gonna be the way to go? Is Pac nor a good company to deal with? Who would be a good smith if I used the factory barrel? I know there are alot of 223 fans who will tell me I am nuts, but I have my heart set on a 221 since my Ruger Hornet was a bust, this appears to be the next closest thing. Any comments on the Burris with the Illuminated retitcle
 
In any case, I think you will be very satisfied with PacNor. I have a Ruger 77MkII that started life as a 223, then was sent to PacNor and came home as a 17 Mach IV. I'm satisfied with their work.
Have you decided against one of Remington's classics in the 221? It seems a few people have posted on internet forums that they were able to get acceptable performance from them. I know its not a short action, but if it does what you want it to, it would save some money compared to the custom route. Even after you "tweak" it I think you would be under the cost of a project rifle. Just a thought.

Rick L.
 
Quarterbore,

I know what you mean about just wanting what you want and logic be darned! And the Fireball is a superb cartridge for the use you have described. One thing you didn't mention, that I have to ask - do you want this to be a repeater? Getting a "regular" 700 action to feed the short little cartriges well, can be a challenge. Fortunately, Rem. made the 2002 700 Classic in .221 and made some new magazine parts specifically for the Fireball. I've got two of these Classic's and they do in fact feed FB cases flawlessly. So, unless you start out with a Classic already chambered in Fireball, you will probably want to look into obtaining the .221 Classic follower and magazine box. I've not tried ordering these parts myself, but I have heard from two separate guys who ordered them from Rem. direct and got them that way.

Pacnor's are usually good barrels and the barreling service they offer is a good deal. You would usually pay a bit more than that to have the work done by a top 'smith (most charge $150 or so just for the action truing).

I also have one of the stainless synthetic Model Seven .223's you mention. The stock IS the crappy molded type I'm afraid. But, you CAN pillar bed it. I did mine.

I'm not sure if you could have the M7 barrel re-chambered to Fireball or not though. You would need to set it back quite a bit to make sure the .221 reamer cleans up ALL of the old .223 chamber, and there might not be enough diameter left for a good shoulder. I'd guess not, but I could be wrong. If you do decide to go with the M7 and have it re-chambered, I'd suggest trying to find a local 'smith to do the work for a reasonable cost. To me, it just isn't worth paying top dollar for this work on a factory barrel. Because you end up having WAY more in 'smithing on it than it was worth to begin with. But, if you can find someone to do the job for a reasonable price, it can be worth it.

One way to go would be to simply get one of the Classic 700's already factory chambered in .221. You could even get one, then have it trued up and a new "better than factory" chamber cut. Again, I'd look for a 'smith willing to do the re-chambering at lower than top dog rates, because it just isn't worth paying $150 to re-chamber a $15 factory barrel.

Good luck, whichever way you go!

Here's a picture of my Classic .221 the first morning I took it out.

DAAClass2Yts.jpg


- DAA
 
You may not be able to use the factory barrel after trueing up the Rem 700 receiver threads. The gunsmith may have to go to a larger diameter to clean them up and then the factory barrel may be too small a diameter.

Gunsmiths may have a trick to making this work though. I agree with the above poster about putting all that money into a factory barrel.

If you are set on a Rem 700, I would just buy a new classic in 221 FB, and shoot it the way it came from the factory. It may surprise you. I am seriously thinking of doing this myself.
 
Welcome to the board quarterbore!

You are getting some good advise. If you start with an action and a custom barrel, I doubt you can keep the price under $1000.

The cheapest way to get a 700 action is to buy a new ADL synthetic and sell the stock and barrel. You can buy the new rifle for about $350 or less and sell the stock and new 223 barrel for close to $100.

Jack
 
Thanks you guys are telling me what I already knew. I threw it out there to see what some thoughts were. I have played with the Remingtons I have and and had excellent results with factory barrels (HS Stocks good optics and decent reloads)I bought all my Remingtons used 5 in total. Two new Leupolds last year. I got a new 870 SPS last year that I was very disapointed with. The gun shoots great, but too much plastic for the $600.00 price tag. Remington could not tell me what solvents would be safe on the camo finsh. A gun smith from Bennalli told me anything but DEET ( all the industry camo is done at the same place). Leupolds are my favorite scope but they are becoming too pricey compared to others on the market. I can almost be into a Night Force or to German glass for a few bucks more with more features. I am just disgusted with the amount of crap that companys are selling for too much money. Any words on a Burris Fullfied or a Signature series, I like their illuminated reticle. Thanks again
 
Welcome to the board.

My 2-cents is like the rest. Just buy a Classic is you can find one. It will do all you need to do.
 
I have a Classic here that I've been testing for a review. Have only been able to use 50 grain factory loads to date. With just a little trigger work and no bedding, this rifle acts like it really wants to shoot. 5-shot groups often contain tight 1/2 inch clusters with flyers that open up groups, but the flyers are understandable as I am finding wide velocity swings in the factory ammo. I'm gonna start playing with some handloads, and was wondering if anyone out there has developed any good loads suitable for the longer barrel. Most existing loading data is for the handgun. I suspect with a bedding job and some judicious handloads, this rifle will be a superb shooter. Also have in house for the same review, 21-inch Contender Carbine barrel from the custom shop, and this may also prove to be an excellent base for a Fireball. If I were hunting a Fireball, I'd look at a Classic before I'd spend the money on a custom.
 
Quarterbore-
You could by a NEF rifle in 22 hornet and re-chamber to 221 fb. My gunsmith here would do it for $56. New NEF in hornet runs @ $200. My 2 cents
 
DAA,

What type of ammo are you shooting those coyotes with in your Fireball? What type of accuracy are you getting. How is their performance on coyotes?

Just curious, think about getting a Classic in 221 Fireball as a plinker/200 yd. predator rifle.

Ralph,

What is the velocity of the 50 gr. V-Max load throught the M700?
 
Todd,

I shot the coyotes with handloads, consisting of 19.0 gr. of RL7 and a 40 gr. Vmax. At that time, this load was producing 3250 fps. Have only had the rifle out just that one day. Ended up killing three coyotes with it. The first one, was at 225 yards. He was sitting on his haunches facing me. First shot hit him low and blew out some of his guts. Second shot, as he was spinning, creased his lower chest breaking both front legs. He was still thrashing around a bit but I didn't have a clear path for another shot. He was dead by the time I walked over to him. Very messy. Second coyote stopped picture perfect broadside at 70 yards, and I shot her right in the pocket behind the shoulder. She dropped stone dead, no exit. Third one was trotting at about 100 yds facing me but starting to quarter away, first shot hit her low in the chest. That shot might well have killed her, before she got very far, but as she started running downhill and across my front at about 50 yards I hit her again right behind the shoulder and she went down and skidded to a stop in a dramatic cloud of dust. Neither bullet exited. So, I'd say the combo performs just fine on coyotes. Range is a bit limited, and shot placement needs some care, but all in all it kills 'em just fine.

You asked about accuracy. That needs just a brief bit of explanation. When I got the rifle new, the factory chamber was badly oversized and HORRIBLY machined. I mean, it was just gawdawful. Still, with new cases, it shot "pretty good", averaging about 3/4" for five shot groups at 100 yds. But with once fired cases, out of that mishapen, crooked, reamer chattered, off-center, Remington-piece-of-work chamber it shot like dirt. So I had the barrel set back a bit and re-chambered with a good Fireball reamer a friend had ground to his spec's by PPG. Now, it shoots even better. I have only tried two loads in it. Both with 40 gr. Vmax. One, that same 19.0 gr. of RL7 I shot the coyotes with, the other 16.0 gr. of Lil Gun. The average for a dozen five shot groups shot to date with these two loads is ~.550. That is counting every shot - NO alibis, no flyers not counted (I don't believe in flyers anyway...). The velocity went up with the new chamber too, which isn't surprising since it is now much more snug ("match" type fit) and has a shorter throat (zero freebore, 1.5 degree leade). The RL7 load is now producing 3350 fps and the Lil Gun load is good for 3450 fps. At this point, I can't say that one load is any more accurate than the other, they have both shot equally well in the limited amount of paper punching I've done.

- DAA
 
Tod,

The average velocities are about 3,040 with a standard deviation of under 30 fps, IF, you throw out the 3 or 4 rounds out of every box that drop down to the 2,700 or 2,800 area. These are responsible for the out of the group flyers. If I omit those very low velocity rounds, groups are 1/2 inch on average, and well rounded.

Ralph
 
DAA,
You must be using Rem 7 1/2's?? Interesting, Lil'Gun did 3436 with 15.2 grs. and 19.1 of RL-7 does 3306 in my rifle. 15.8 of Lil'Gun was 3576 with flat primers. Used Win as standard for pressure testing but know the Rem's will take more to show. This was with same bullet. Also, 40 V-max was the most preferred bullet in my rifle too as far as accuracy. I punched one at 19 yards with the Rem factory load. It exited with about a 50 cent piece hole.

50gr. V-max Rem factory loads averaged about 3050 fps in my rifle.
 
Steve, I'm using 205M's. The LG load has just the slightest hint of indication on the primer, but nothing that I'd consider over board by any means. Still plenty of radius. Have not had time to try loading one case many times to see how the primer pocket holds up or anything like that. This is the first time I've ever played with Lil Gun, so I don't know how it is as far as lot-to-lot consistency or how temperature sensitive it is. Have heard that it can be pretty finicky though. I chronied my loads at about 35 degrees, was it much warmer when you clocked yours? That MIGHT explain the discrepency, but I'm just lobbing out a WAG.

- DAA
 
DAA,
Mine were this summer in about 95 degrees!!! I too have not had the chance to work with the LG that much. It was pretty good in .22 Hornet. Cases won't take much of it at these velocities. Only cases I have lost were due to primer pockets under pressure testing loads. Case life is really good if you keep the loads were they should be.

I too believe it can be finicky. H-4227 seemed to be the best route in my rifle as well as Vit-110. 2400 is a hoss too! Vit-120 may be a good one too but my ranges have been wet with freak rain/snow/ice for over a month and are still wet under 6 inches of rain last week!! Can't do any work.
 
DAA-

Where are you hunting? Looks familiar, but then all of the desert country kinda looks the same don't it? I had some real good days right up until Christmas, and now I don't even go out, can't find a place to park cause of all the bunny blasters and such. Back at it in Feb for me.
 
Dogboy, I can't tell you anything about the factory ammo. I've never even looked for it, have no interest in it as I'll never use it.

Bluedog, I hunt all over the place /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif . Went out yesterday and did pretty good, didn't see any other hunters out either.

- DAA
 
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