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#65511 - 07/02/02 05:25 PM Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Jack Roberts Offline
Admin/moderator

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 15797
Loc: Elko, NV formerly MD
There has been some misinformation going around about Krieger and Criterion barrels. A recent article in the VHA magazine "Varmint Hunter" by Steve Timm is the source of some of it.

Now don't blame Steve as I am sure he was just quoting the specifications Weatherby gave him. Steves article "The 2002 VHA Jamboree Weatherby/Nosler Auction Rifle" says "The 26-inch Krieger Criterion stainless steel barrel is button rifled, hand lapped, and terminates with an 11-degree target crown." Steves other article, "The 2001 VHA Jamboree Weatherby/Nosler Auction Rifle" also refers to a "Krieger Criterion" barrel.

This is not correct because Krieger and Criterion are totally different companies. They have separate plants. Criterion makes button rifled barrels, Krieger makes only cut rifled barrels. The reason for the confusion is that the same person owns both companies. However they are two separate companies. To further confuse things, you can order a Weatherby from the custom shop with a Krieger cut rifled barrel. So the Weatherby custom shop is using both Krieger and Criterion barrels and both companies, although separate, are owned by the same person.

I had a long talk with Krieger on the phone today and this is how they explained it to me.

Jack
_________________________

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going."
"Yeah, to where the going's easier." Ben Bova

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#65512 - 07/02/02 06:04 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the un-confusing Jack. I needed it.

- DAA

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#65513 - 07/02/02 07:07 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
SteveTimm Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 212
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Sorry guys.

Sure, Kreiger builds the Criterion. I am also aware that the standard Kreiger is a cut-rifled barrel. Obviously, the Kreiger is the custom line, while the Criterion (I guess) is more of an OEM product.

With that said, the two Criterion barrels I shot were wonderful barrels. Both very much at peace, stacking groups with totally different loads practically on top of each other. Frankly, they shot on a par with any of the custom barrels I have ever used.

I was fighting the heavy Weatherby triggers the whole way (said this in the articles, too) and it is totally a credit to to the Criterion barrels that the rifles shot so well.

Anyway, I totally apologize for any confusion. I knew the difference, but apparently wasn't clear enough.

By the way, I was so happy with the Criterion barrels that my next rifle will have a Kreiger barrel. Gordy Gritters (Pella, Iowa accuracy gunsmith) will be building it. It will be a three-contour in a McMillan Classic stock.

I haven't decided on the cartridge yet and have both long and short actions on hand. Maybe .22-250 Ackley, .240 Weatherby, .25-06 Ackley.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Steve

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#65514 - 07/02/02 08:06 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Jack Roberts Offline
Admin/moderator

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 15797
Loc: Elko, NV formerly MD
Steve
You did not read my post very well.

As for your new rifle; I built a 22-250AI with a 9" twist Krieger 2 years ago. I have not shot it much but have been pleased with what I have shot. I was planning on shooting the 80gr JLK VLD bullets but the 77 Sierras shoot better. Every barrel has its favorite!

Jack

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#65515 - 07/02/02 08:37 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Jason El Paso Offline
Admin / Pro-Staff Advisor

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 4169
Loc: Bedford,Texas
Man go with the 25/06A
_________________________
Keep the wind in your face and... Good calling to you...

Don't Fear The night...
Fear What Hunts at Night.









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#65516 - 07/02/02 10:24 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
SteveTimm Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 212
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Jack,

I have the "Order Authentication" on both rifles on Weatherby's letterhead.

They both read identically and I'll type it exactly as received:

Barrel length/Contour: Kreiger 26", #4 contour, 11 degree concave target crown, .825 muzzle.

Barrel material/finish: 410 stainless, button rifling, cryogenic treated, hand-lapped, fluted w/black oxide in flutes.

Nowhere, absoutely nowhere, in my specs does Weatherby say Criterion. The Weatherby catalogue says that the Mark V Super Varmintmaster comes with a "Criterion by Kreiger."

The fact that the authentication identified the barrels as button-rifled told me that they were Criterion barrels. Frankly, if I had to go by the stuff Weatherby sent me I would have really screwed up. They sent me more info than most companies, granted, but the barrel information was a little crazy.

Anyway, I truly regret any confusion and I never, ever meant to mislead. I pride myself on total honesty and correctness in my writing and if I confused even one person, I've failed - at least a little.

Man, if the OEM Criterons are this good, I'm really looking forward to the full Kreiger.

Jason,

OK, buddy. One vote for .25-06 Ackley.

Any other opinions? Don't be shy.

Steve

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#65517 - 07/02/02 10:58 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Jack Roberts Offline
Admin/moderator

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 15797
Loc: Elko, NV formerly MD
Steve
I think Weatherby is trying to take advantage of the Krieger name for the Criterion barrels. Although from your reports the Criterions are great also.

The only connection between Krieger and Criterion is that they are owned by the same person. Maybe this guy knows how to buy quality barrel makers?

Weatherby is wrong to call any button rifled barrel a Krieger. Krieger, as of this afternoon, has never made a button rifled barrel, and again, as of this afternoon, has no plans to.

I know it is hard to remember, but the correct spelling for Krieger is -ie-. You did have it right in your articles Steve.

Jack

I don't mean to pick on anybody about the spelling, it is one of the hardest words to spell I have encountered. I have probably spelled it wrong more than right and I have been buying their barrels for over 15 years. But I double checked tonight and want to steer all to the proper spelling so you can correct me when I get it wrong tomorrow.

Again, Jack

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#65518 - 07/03/02 12:02 AM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
The Butcher Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 926
Loc: Pittsburgh Pa.
Jack,
Your post are most informative, and we're not going to hang you on spelling. I've wanted to try a Krieger barrel, on a future project. Steve, as for caliber choice, how about a nice small walking varmint rig in the 250 Savage Improved. I've been thinking about this one myself. Only my application would be in a light weight rifle, for Whitetails here in Pa. I currently use a 25-06 Rem. I picked up a Remington Classic last year in 250 Savage. I love it to death. I had a model 99 in that caliber when I was a boy, and forgot how well it worked, after I sold it to buy my first 25-06. That is one rifle I wish I would have kept. Live and learn. I would imagine, you could duplicate or surpass .257 Roberts ballistics, with the .250AI, and I think it would make either a nice varmint rig, shooting 75 grainers, or with 1-10 twist, shoot 100gr spitzers for deer. Just a thought.
_________________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. John Wayne

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#65519 - 07/03/02 12:30 AM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Sean Martin Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/18/01
Posts: 272
Loc: back in the piney woods
Steve ,

Go with the 25-06AI, it will truely bre interesting to see if a 75 gr. Sierra BTHP reach 4000 fps.
I shoot a standard 25-06 and with a 24" barrel can push the 75 gr.ers @ 3674 over 57.5 grs. of H-4350. they also group sub MOA.

Sean
_________________________
All you hear is thunder and then it all over but the shouting !

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#65520 - 07/03/02 12:15 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
SteveTimm Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 212
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Sorry about the spelling. My mistake.

Mr. Krieger (John?) gave a two-hour symposium at the Varmint Hunters Jamboree a couple of years ago. He is a very nice guy and really impressed of me with his knowledge of barrels, steels and rifling techniques. I was also able to spend some quality time with him after his presentation and it was very enlightening.

He truly believes in cryogenically treating the steel before it is worked and cryoing it after the barrel is finished. Hey, he IS the expert and his barrels shoot, so he is probably right.

I never heard of Criterion before Weatherby started using "Criterion by Krieger." I wonder if Krieger bought another barrel company or if he started the button-rifled plant on his own.

By the way, Mr Krieger was not the type to say that his was the only way. Yes, he liked cut-rifled barrels, but he freely admitted that a button-rifled barrel, if done with the same care, would also shoot very well.

I did a three-part article on building custom rifles a few years ago (like 24,000 words in total). One section was devoted almost entirely to barrels.

In researching for the article, I talked to every one of the major custom barrel makers (Hart, Schneider, Lilja, Krieger, Shilen, Douglas, Pac-Nor). All of them were very up front, saying that the quality of the deep-hole drilling and finish of the primary hole plays a key role in the making of a good barrel. Interesting.

To a man, they said that if they could figure out what happened when they made a "hummer" and what happened when they made a bad barrel, they would own the market. Sometimes, magic happens and that's why they are so fascinated with the barrel arena.

OK - 2 votes for .25-06 Ackley
1 vote for .250 Ackley

Any more votes for Steve's next feature article rifle? C'mon, don't be shy.

Steve

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#65521 - 07/03/02 01:02 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Quag Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 162
Loc: Spring Creek Nevada
Quote "Any more votes for Steve's next feature article rifle? C'mon, don't be shy."

How about a classic rifle. We have left the glory days of custom rifle building and entered a world of synthetics and gaps. Lets see you build a good shooting, tight fitting, light weight rifle using actual blueing and wood and forgo the plastic, huge scoped mosters that are the rave of today?

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#65522 - 07/03/02 01:46 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Jason El Paso Offline
Admin / Pro-Staff Advisor

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 4169
Loc: Bedford,Texas
Spelling, heck we all have problems every so often, my spelling at times is bad, my wife the teacher gets me all the time...

Steve, you have your hands full with Jack & DAA Boy look out
_________________________
Keep the wind in your face and... Good calling to you...

Don't Fear The night...
Fear What Hunts at Night.









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#65523 - 07/03/02 02:23 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Rich Cronk Offline
Retired Moderator

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 7135
Loc: Western Iowa
Steve Timm,
I know that you have heard of the 6mm International, and how they formed the chamber by running a 6mm Remington reamer in there "Part way". The case was a .250 Savage necked down to 6mm. After fire forming, the case came out looking exactly like a 6mm Remington "short". Now here is MY idea. Begin with a Krieger "Criterion" barrel in .25 caliber. Now take a .257 Ackley reamer and form a chamber of .250 "Savage improved" length. You would simply run the .257 Ackley reamer in there "part way". The parent case would be a .250 Savage. After fire forming, you would have a case that looked exactly like a short .257 Ackley. I believe that this new cartrige would work, and I do not believe that anyone has tried it yet. I was going to build one once, but let it fall by the wayside. I was going to call the new cartrige the .257 CRONK. I am just joking about using a Krieger Criterion barrel, but completely serious about the new wildcat. I am not absolutely certain that a .250 Savage case would stretch enough to work without losing a few rounds which crack though. Anyway, you have my brainstorm in print now.
_________________________

--------
FoxPro Field Staff
-------------------------
www.cronkpredatorcalls.com

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#65524 - 07/03/02 02:30 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Anonymous
Unregistered


Steve, what kind of duty do have in mind for the new rifle? I'm a .22-250AI fan, but I know you are too, and suspect you already have one configured similarly (3 contour, Classic stock). Anyway, it would help me in casting my vote to know whatcha got in mind for this new rig.

- DAA

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#65525 - 07/03/02 05:22 PM Re: Krieger vs Criterion Barrels
Tackdriver Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 2031
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Steve
Of the three you mentioned, my vote goes to the 240 Weatherby, with a zero freebore.

BUT what might get me to the magazine stand a little faster is something on my new "favorites".
The little 17, 19, and 20 cals.

If I could "assign" your next article I would want you to write about the 20-223, 20-223AI.

Edit: Steve, if you already have written about these, please tell me for what mag/issue. The only gun mag I get [outside of the Am. Hunter], is "The Accurate Rifle"
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BLOW OUT YOUR SHOULDERS!!

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