Calling in the long tails!

Craig_S

New member
(Sorry, this is a long post but I have been thinking about this for sometime now.)

I have read facts, posts & I have even had the chance to listen to a few pretty darn good lion hunters & trappers but I find myself struggling to find the time to pattern them & hunt them the way that I believe one needs too, to be successful at it but it still amazes me how some guys just get plain lucky. I live in Mohave County Arizona & we have no shortage of the great long tails & over the past 9 months we have had at least 3 called in by guys hunting coyotes. We also had 2 called in by a guy out of Phoenix & I was told this guy has called in over 200 lions. The guys that were coyote hunting all sat for less than 10 mins & were using distress sounds. Now with that being said the oldest lion they called in was at best 4 years old. The man from Phoenix also uses distress sounds but from what I have been told he concentrates on them (patterns the scratches & scent stations). This gentle man is going to be up in Kingman this next Friday for a seminar before a big lion hunt we have going up here.

I get a little indecisive when it comes to calling lions because I have not done it nearly enough & don't really know what sounds I want to use. I know Steve Craig is a big Lion sound guy but I have not been around enough lions to even remotely interpret their language & distress sounds seem to be the most BASIC way to call in any predator. I have had good success calling in Bobcats the past few years because I have learned to pattern them somewhat & I don't call for them unless I know one is in the country & I have to believe the same philosophy holds true for lions. When calling in bobcats I have had better luck with just distress sound & not any luck with bobcat sounds. Now with that being said I know they are alot like an alley cat & I know alley cats are very territorial. When I first started coyote hunting I used just distress sounds but over the past 10 years I have adapted & I believe that their language & aggressivness is their biggest down fall but I have grown confidence in calling them this way because I have been able to observe them & listen to them while also trying different things. Basically, it comes down to lack of confidence in Lion sounds because my encounters with them have been so brief & I have not been able to observe them with out them knowing that I was in the country. I am now getting to the point that I would like to understand their communication more before I go & run them off with bad sounds. I have even thought about going to a zoo for several days with my video camera just to observe them for long periods of time. On the other hand I know & have been told by a few great trappers that a cat is cat & I know house cats & bobcats both make a living by hunting & I have been told lions are the same & this is what gives me a little more confidence in distress sounds. I know Steve will see this post sooner or later & I hope he chimes as he seems to be the most seasoned on this subject. If anyone else has anything to add then please feel free.
 
Very interesting thread. Can't wait to see where it goes.
I have a friend in Mojave county that has been trying to pattern a specific lion for a couple of years. Anyway, there will be a lot of us callers in Globe this coming weekend. Manyof which will be "cold calling" for Lion and everything else in hopes of "getting lucky".
 
I have seen lion sounds work and NOT work.

Its all about timing, and what cougar (and it's circumstances) you are "speaking to".

You are so right .... tons of scouting.

Otherwise a fair bit of scouting and prey sounds.

Prey sounds do work .... and like your observation, sometimes VERY WELL!

You've been doing some good hard thinking and it shows! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Three 44s
 
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44's,

I have seen some of your posts & I appreciate the comments. You are right, I have been thinking about these questions or comments for a long, long time. I consider myself to be pretty knowledgable when it comes to predator hunting but I am always learning & trying new ideas whether I come up with them or someone else does. I don't believe a hunter ever becomes an expert!

Do you believe lion sounds work best on territorial males & females?
Like you said it takes a lot of time to pattern or semi pattern a mature lion & knowing his territory & where to call to really beep him off would seem to be the best opportunity to call a mature lion. I also can't help but wonder if distress sounds will get a territorial response from a mature lion and not just a predatory response, after all someone is eating the big cats food.
Another question I have asked myself: does a female in heat sound, call in all males (like cow elk sounds call in bulls) or does the smaller male lion shy away from that sound? This is why I think I need more time to observe these animals before I start using lion sounds. Right now a two year old lion would be just as nice as an 8 year old & if distress sounds can stike a territorial response, one could have his cake & eat it too! Just some thoughts, not the gospel.
 
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When I saw a lion really respond to lion sounds ... we now believe it was a male ..... it came into male lion/lost kitten/female looking for kitten in a rotation of sounds.

A big male in his territory would be pretty resolved to investigate such a melay. A lesser tom may not be.

A female might .... but if she had her kittens accounted for would be much more motivated to take for cover with kids in tow.

So you have two main tasks .... find a cougar in proximity to call ....... real close is much better than so so close ........ and figure out what sort of cougar it is so you don't send the wrong message. ... Ie. tell a mama coug with a kitten there is a male about that will eat the "little scamp" in order to make whoopie with "Mom".

Three 44s
 
44,

I think you are right. It is all about matching the sound with the situation. If you can determine the lion age and sex then play that to your advantage. In a lot of ways using the animals own sounds, (ie howling, lion sounds, buggling for elk, grunting etc.) all come down to a couple key things. First is using the sound at the right time of year. Next is using the sound that matches animal. Use a large dominate sound and younger one will turn and run. Sound to young and older ones will typically blow you off. Using a variety of sounds like 44 said will allow you to give alittle bit of something for everyone.

Calling 200 lions is imporessive. I have a hard time swallowing that number. If it was the only thing you did day in and day out then maybe, but to me it seems highly unlikely.
 
Elks,
When you stated: sound like a younger lion & older ones will typically blow you off? Do you have experiences with this situation? I don't but I have been told that most dominate male lions will kill a lesser male in his territory, especially if game is scarce. Now this would lead me to believe a younger lion sound, could possibly work in this situation.

Yeah, the 200 lions, seem high but I am not going to judge. From what I have read S. Craig states he calls in 10-20 lions a year, again I don't know him personally but I know he seems pretty knowledgeable on the subject. He also seems pretty respected around here.

I do agree the bottom line is you have to get out & do your darn homework or else you are just relying on luck. (I don't have much of that!)
 
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The dominate males kill kittens, run off or kill lesser males and even at times kill grown females if they do not estrus.

They are killing machines. I don't think they would blow off another good chance to kill.

The main problem with targeting a dominate male is there are not very many and the ones that do exist are spread pretty thin. ... well over a 100 square mile territory. So for a caller to get close enough for it to hear and respond ..... is pretty problematic hence the tons of scouting.

Three 44s
 
Craig S,

I was making a more general statement about calling all critters. Yes the big dominate male would not pass up a chance to make kill, but I think if you sound too small many animals will blow on by. If you sound too big many animals will run in fear. This was the statement I was more going for.

Like 44 said, big dominate males are really hard to come by. I would assume that most any one calling lions are more likely to call a medium non dominate lion. If that is the case going for a nice middle ground sound would be in order.

The great part about calling is that we can sit back and thoerize all we want on what should happen and how things should go. Once on the stand we are at their mercy. My only lion called came after a month of research here, question asking, etc. I was prepared for hours of sitting calling etc. I had thought a longer shot at a sneaking cat was likely. I figured a few years of trying would be needed. On my second stand ever with a lion tag in my pocket I called a female that was 7-8 years old and 128 pounds. I was teaching my self lion vocalizations, but notgood at them so I sat down with a Sceery rabbit call andgave it hell. After 15 minutes I look over my shoulder and she was at 8 yards.

The point, we can sit and alk all we want about calls etc. We can follow all the rules we think for years and years and not luck, then sometimes we break every rule in the book and and get one right away.
 
Elks,

Good point about prey sounds. When in doubt about what to do, they are the safest. My good friend gave up on his lion vocals after the Tom left our area and threw a rabbit squaller at them ...a little time goes by and ... BAM! .... right behind him in pitch black night .... thirty five yards just sitting there and then GONE! .... there was a little "intensity" that helped with the gone part ....

LOL!!

Three 44s
 
Guys I appreciate the advise & you sharing your experiences. I know this is great stuff & it seems like BOTH of you have also about these questions & answers for awhile. My bottom line is the lack of confidence in lions sounds, not because they don't work but because I believe I do not have the knowledge to use those sounds to be very effective. I thing prey distress sound are a lot harder to screw things up. I am with you guys, call lions in lion country & use what you feel comfortable with but I sure wish I knew their language a little more.
 
was there in kingman friday night it was worth the peronal time x-pense soforth.Real good useable info. Pattern big cats wow thats greek to me. Yet i use it every day did'nt know i was. If we were cops we would know this as an m/o. Well dont think your self into a hole. Lot of ways you anserd your on ?. The crimanel all ways returns to the scene of the crime. This covers kill sites 10 yrs old are kill sites 10 minutes old. I personaly would not hunt to much south of silver creek road. Try hunting the springs around gold road . Terra server has good maps switch back in forth from air to topo.You are a ground breaker & will take manny cats. Big cat sounds wrong guy. Got a girl friend /mom dad/g-ma g-pa. well you know about geting your turf crowed use it. Puring ,want to make a big cat mad,iamin your turf eating sleeping what up!!! Try the whistle&distress from june to oct. The distress logic being kittens work there way up the food chain mice to wild horses your case wild burros les burros cause they can kill them back. Why the yote hunter kill cats 10 or les min, cats do re srspont that fast.Have i killd a big cat no hahe i seen one not sure ,i just want to get good at yotes so i can quite.
 
My partner & I made 7 1/2 stands over the weekend & we called in no long tails. On Saturday we made 3 sets on a ridge line that broke of into several canyons. We were up high on all of these sets & sat for 60-75 mins. a stand. Our last stand of the day ended on a small rocky ridge that sat below the biggest rocky mountain in the mountain range, with tons of junipers & scrub oak. We placed the caller in the canyon that feed off of the mountain strait towards us. We sat at this stand for an 1 hour & 20 mins. We started out each stand with a distress sound & played it constant for 50-60 mins. After that I switched over to some lion sounds for the remainder of the set. The next day we were hunting the same mountain range & started out in a big canyon that I saw several deer in a couple of weeks ago. We called in a fox with in five mins., along with some blue jays(total set time 75 mins.). We then proceeded around the mountain & moved up a big canyon & called from a ridge that dropped off into it. We called on this thick stand for 70 mins. Our next stand was around the mountain & then out of the truck. We hiked strait up & towards a couple of large rocky out croppings that resided on the top of a couple large ridges. We called this stand for 1 hour & 35 mins & saw nothing but two large eagles & a rock squirrel. Our last stand was crap & the only reason we called on it was because we found a scratch that pointed its direction & we knew there was a alot of deer around this area but the setup was not good at all.

None the less we found one scracth, two piles of scat, one fresh & small & the other large & old. Besides that we hiked our butts off & sat patiently waiting. Better luck next time.
 
Craig, SOunds like your hunting experience is about how all lion caller experiences go. Hike our buts off called our butts off and did not have much luck. Your lucky you can use an ecaller. I do not have that luxury. Here inCO they are not legal at all. So I go out snugle up to a rock or a tree and have at it.

Good luck inteh future I am on a yote mission this week I need 3 yotes by sat. at 2:00. After that I am back to all cats for a few weeks. then it will be time to ice fish for march.
 
Craig, thanks for the intersting insight on this tough subject. I too have the same delima. For this reason when in lion country I stick with the fawn in distress calls. I have tried cow calling as well when elk is the more prominant species in the area. I agree in that a cat is a cat, and I think that as long as you are within range (earshot) you will spark the curosity of the animal more than anything. Talking with some Fish and Game people they basically said to avoid hunting the lions, first to hunt their prey. For me, most of my cat hunting has been in N.E. Oregon where there are many lions. I concentrated on finding their prey, then tried to think like a cat. Where would the cat roam as to not offend or otherwise spook the prey. How to approach the area without being spotted/winded by the prey to avoid detection by the predator. ETC, ETC.

IMO maybe the best way to learn is to get out there and try and try again. The part that I find most diffacult is that the lions travel an estimated 100 sq/mile area. Trying to pin one cat down in that 100 sq/miles is like the needle in a haystack.

Good luck, I will be returning to this post in hopes of an easy answer but fear there is not one out there.
 
With the concentration of over-wintering big game, one can squeeze the size of that hay stack a little.

The cats are bound to overlap their travels with one and another some too at this time of year compared to the rest of the year.

And I would bet that the cats will tend to layup above those herds.

Deer in distress and a real animated rabbit distress are classic sounds. Add moose calf as well irregardless whether a moose has ever set foot in your territory in the last thousand years or not.

Also, consider birds. Some cougs really dig birds. The pileated woodpecker is one of the best.

Three 44s
 
Started off a couple stands with blue jay distress. I have seen bobcats around with blue jays just harassing the hell out of them,I got to believe birds do the same to lions. I also know house cats & bobcats love thoughs high-pitched busy sounds, it seems from what I have read & experienced they are more curious than anything. One couldn't help but think lions would be just as curious.
 
I'll throw my 2 cents worth in.I'm just a farmer from Iowa but I've been lucky enough to see 3 lions in the wild.2 were called in, 1 in Iowa 1 in Colorado.I hunted with Steve Craig and learned alot. You guys have hit on alot of good thoughts most of them right on.As far as lion sounds go it would seem that a young lion sound should call any age or sex lion. A old male would want to kill it or breed it,a female with out young would investigate it another young lion would respond as if it was a littermate.Also I'll start another debate, what about the quality of the sounds
Also I would be willing to bet there is a lot of lions called in the caller never sees as they make the caller due to movement and then their gone
Mark.
 
bluetrapper,

I totally agree that MANY cougs get called into the general area of a caller but are never seen or are seen too late to close the deal.

If you so much as wiggle your nose hairs at the wrong time .... YOU ARE BUSTED!! While they come to the call by sound .... they close the deal by sight ... and their eye sight is sharp as a hounds tooth!

Did you get to hunt with Steve Craig recently or a while back? I have heard that there is a long wait these days.

Regards

Three 44s
 
Blue,
I know Steve is a big WT guy & I have heard that they have the most realistic or best quality of sounds. I am not a sound guy but I use an FX 3 which seems to be good enough to full bobcats ears (atleast with distress sounds).

I am just a rookie when it comes to calling lions & I would listen to any suggestions, anyone can bring to the table.
 
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