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#54007 - 10/28/01 09:47 PM Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
TJF Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/28/01
Posts: 6
Loc: ND
I've got some questions on Mange in ND. The subject probably has been beaten to death by now and I am sorry if I bring it up again, but I am curious. Where did the mange start in the state?? Which way did it move across the state?? Did anyone track it's movement?? Did coyotes really start it or could it have been from another "source"??. How long will the fox and coyote population have to deal with it?? How do they get over it??

I'm asking these question because I've heard coyotes started mange in ND. We didn't have coyotes in our area when mange hit. I live in Brocket which is East and a little North of Devils Lake. Mange seemed to come from the east as deer hunters noticed dead fox East of State Hiway 1 while hunting. It wasn't until the following fall that it hit my area. Coyotes moved in a couple years after that. I am originally from Cando. They have had coyotes in that area for years before I came here. Mange showed up there a couple years later after the fox had it here. It just seems crazy to me if coyotes were the cause, wouldn't it have followed the coyote's movement Eastward?? To me it seems to have moved Westward and coyotes weren't the cause, they just unfortunately got in the way. I would love to know anybody's thoughts on this as it has bugged me since mange started here. Thanks!!

Tim

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#54008 - 10/29/01 10:32 AM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
nd coyote killer Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 858
Loc: Grand Forks, ND
tim i have found that the mange did follow the coyotes eastward but the fox got killed off so quickly because they can't take the mange as well as the coyotes. They might have got it from minnesota yotes also i don't know but it sure did do some damage. I have noticed that everything is starting to work through it now. I have noticed that more coyotes are this far east now but i wish the fox would come back!
p.s are you coming to the predator masters tournament in minot in january?
nd coyote killer

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"Aim small = miss small"

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#54009 - 10/29/01 09:34 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
TJF Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/28/01
Posts: 6
Loc: ND
It did hit the fox hard and fast. Darn near a wipeout in my area. Went from seeing a couple on the way to work each morning to being lucky to see one in 6 months and I spend a lot of time outdoors. Last winter half of the coyotes I seen still had mange. I hope your right and mange is on the downswing now.

As interesting as your yote hunt sounds, I doubt it. I am more of a trapper and only have called a few times to see what it is like. Was fun, but my best luck at it is when I am bowhunting deer and see a fox or yote and just squeal on my hand. Never fails they get within 60 yards. Too far for bow and me wishin I had something that reached farther. I am hoping to pick up a .17 or .243 before the first of the year just to get into it more. I'll keep it in mind and hope it turns out great for you guys. good luck.

Tim

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#54010 - 10/29/01 10:58 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
Jimmie in Ky Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/14/00
Posts: 3133
Loc: Mayfield KY
Steve Allen needs to clear this up for sure but my info is that mange is a cyclic disease. Mange is carried or caused by a mite that invades the pores of the affected animal.It is related to population density in the predator population.With the low prices on furs the predator populations are at all time highs all over the nation. The more of them the more contact with each other and thus the spread of a disease that is there all the time. The populations of the two creatures are linked together because of rise and fall in population numbers. Jimmie

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#54011 - 10/30/01 12:25 AM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
TJF Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/28/01
Posts: 6
Loc: ND
Jimmie

Thanks for the reply. I know mange is caused by a mite and I agree with your post. The only info I have came across was that coyotes had mange in ND counties by the Canadian border. I was hoping to get more specific information on where it started and how it moved across the state. We had a high fox population as trapping and hunting decreased due to the prices. I trapped right up till a year before mange hit here. A 4 dollar average for fox barely payed for the gas to check traps, but trapping is something I like to do and it didn't stop me. That following summer a Delta trapper moved into my area and hit it hard targeting fox, skunks, coons and mink. They were doing a study on how predators affected the success of the duck hatch during the nesting period. We talked to the guy a lot as he was trapping mostly on the boss's land. He never mention any fox having mange that he trapped. I didn't trap that fall because he did a thorough job on thinning out the fox and coon in my area. Mange hit late that fall when we noticed fox that looked rubbed. Way before the time that they do rub. By spring we found quite a few dead fox and the numbers fall through the floor after that. If I remember right, that was the fall of 95 that we first noticed the "rubbed" fox. In the fall of 94 they found dead fox east of me during deer hunting.

Tim

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#54012 - 10/30/01 09:15 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
Jimmie in Ky Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/14/00
Posts: 3133
Loc: Mayfield KY
I can tell you that it does move pretty quickly. Two years ago the fox here were fine in december but by febuary they were hairless. We have no idea of where it started then or how many we lost. Thing is it did'nt really show up until after the mating season.That may be why it spread so quickly then.Jimmie

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#54013 - 10/30/01 09:39 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hope ya'll don't mind me bargin in like this, but what I've read about the mange problem in ND is that the type of mange, sarcoptic(?) is a pretty nasty variant. They're saying, the USGS, is that it might hang around for 15 years or so, becoming less of a problem as soon as a resistant population is born into the area. It's not gonna be a short stay apparently. It started up in the Canadian border counties. Those coyotes affected by the mange carrying mite must have quickly affected other coyotes/foxes spreading itself quickly through those poopulations. By what I've read, mange isn't something you can get over quick, if ever, mange most likely will cause death through infection, hypothermia/frostbite. It'll get worse before it gets better. Sad to see.

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Yer Pal,
Bob

"It's always funny until someone gets hurt.......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"

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#54014 - 10/30/01 09:49 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
BadMedicine Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 08/07/01
Posts: 442
Loc: Anchorage, AK, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TJF:
It just seems crazy to me if coyotes were the cause, wouldn't it have followed the coyote's movement Eastward?? To me it seems to have moved Westward and coyotes weren't the cause, they just unfortunately got in the way. [/QUOTE]

LMAO!!!

K...I know it's a serious question..but I gotta clarify here: tehy coyotes RANGE has been moving East, due to the wipe out of the wolf in most those areas, the coyote can fill that fat niche and not have to worry about his larger brotehr getting in the way, as coyotes produce litters they spread to less populated areas to establish territories to hunt in...This does not mean that all coyotes are headed to the east coast... some offspring also moves west. Just because the range of a species as a whole is spreading to a new area (it's NOT completely) migrating, does not mean that a disease seemingly travelinghte other way is not the the result of this species...coyotes don't only travel east all day every day, they have an area, probably somewhat circular, geography permitting, that they hunt, and while o nthe west side of his territory a coyote may feed on a carcass of an animal that is on the eats side of another coyotes territory, and so on and so on, spreading it that way....

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#54015 - 10/31/01 08:39 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
TJF Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/28/01
Posts: 6
Loc: ND
BadMedicine
I am glad you got a good chuckle as everyone needs one of them at least once a day. I am no expert in this subject since I am the one asking the dumb questions, but I don't remember wolves being any part of the coyote's movement "Eastward" in ND expanding their range. It's been a very long time since wolves had anything to do with ND besides being in a zoo. I always thought it was farmland going into CRP that was the biggiest factor in letting the coyote population expand EAST to the Red River Valley with the lack of trapping /hunting as the other major factor. When I use the word "movement" I meant expanding range, not migration. Sorry that this dumb old farmboy doesn't use all the right words, but I am still curious how mange fits in the bigger picture then what I am seeing in my small immediate area. That's why I asked the questions to start with because I don't know the answers and we had mange before we had coyotes. I was hoping someone would and I appreciate all the info and thoughts given so far. Thanks!!

Tim

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#54016 - 11/01/01 10:13 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
BadMedicine Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 08/07/01
Posts: 442
Loc: Anchorage, AK, USA
TJF, trust me, I'm no expert either, and I know nothing of mange... but teh wording just got me going a bit The wolves have alot to do with the coyotes expanding range. The coyotes have lived in the south west deserts and central america for thousands of years, but for some reason in the past 150 they've spread, they're all the way to North alaska, most of canada, and the whole east coast now. Many feel this was due to the boom in populations and mans personal agenda against the wolf, effectively eradicating him from much of his former range, the coyote was targeted as well but are far better survivalists, and being able to live in much closer proximity to humans did far better than the wolf. Living in suburban areas, and often times cities. Sorry if it sounded like I was coming down on you, it's a great question, and I'd still liek to hear from one of the *real experts* on this board about mange. It's true, we all need a chuckle sometimes

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#54017 - 11/03/01 04:35 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
steve allen Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 88
Loc: Bismarck,ND
Sorry guys for not responding to the posts earlier, but hunting season is in full swing. Lots of potential targets available now. I know it's a dirty job, but who better than some old retired biologist with time on his hands, a full tank of diesel, and shotguns to spare.

Anyway, lets tackle the thoughts and see where we end up. First, the mange. We first knew about sarcoptic mange in North Dakota in 1988 which means it was here for a couple of years before we figured out it was here; say 1985 or '86. We first saw it in coyotes along the Canadian border counties. I knew it was just a matter of time before it got into the red fox, and sure enough we started getting lots of red fox with mange reports in about '92 or '93. Most of the red fox reports were coming from the northeast 1/4 of the state.

This particular strain of Sarcoptes scabeii is extremely virulent in that most of the affected animals die. Red fox have a much higher mite load; many animals would have up to 1000 or more mites/ 1 sq. cm. of skin tissue. An ugly mess.

On the brighter side no disease is 100% fatal. There are always animals that are resistant, and there are other animals that contact a disease, but recover from it. We assume this resistance is genetic, and at some point this resistance will be bred into the population.

But when? We don't know. The best data available that I am aware of comes from S. Texas where the researchers followed a mange outbreak in wild coyotes from start to finish; almost 20 years. Now if we assume 20 years is applicable to the current mange outbreak in the northern plains (this is only a "maybe"), then we may be into the last 6-8 years or so of the outbreak in the Canadian border counties, but just getting a good start in northern South Dakota.

Lots of stuff on mange in wild populations we don't know.

Re: the interspecific competition stuff and relationships of wolves, coyotes, red fox and other canids, this topic came up a lot last winter in February and March. At least for now I would like to refer all of you to those discussions for answers to your questions. If after reading all those posts, you still have questions then we will go on from there. I think most questions will be answered by those posts, and I don't want to needlessly "re-invent the wheel."

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#54018 - 11/03/01 11:02 PM Re: Steve Allen or anyone on Mange info ND??
TJF Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/28/01
Posts: 6
Loc: ND
Steve
Thanks for the information. That helps explain what I was seeing in my area. I might be a year off as I was going by memory and my boss was thinking it was 93 when we first heard of the fox dieing East of us.

Tim

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