I crunched the #'s on the 204 for coyote.

GeorgiaJoe

GeorgiaJoe

New member
-When the .204 Ruger was first introduced the "headline" was the velocity of the 32gr V-Max @4200 fps. It got lots of attention and lots of people "jumped on the wagon" and bought one. I soon started seeing good reports as a varmint gun but bad reports on it as a coyote round. I had wanted to "get on the wagon" also but decided to do some research before making the investment. {In Georgia there are no PD's and non-game animals are the only critters you can shoot with the .204. It's not legal for deer (.22 cal. or larger), it's not legal for fur bearer like bob-cat and fox (rim fire or shotgun with #2 shot or smaller), so coyote and ground-hog are about it.}What I found I thought was interesting so I thought it was worth sharing.
-As most of you know the key is the energy at impact, not the muzzle velocity. The recommended energy for killing a coyote sized animal(In GA 35 - 40 lbs)humanely is between 550 and 600 ftlbs according to the ballistics calculator I am using. I'm seeing the 32gr V-Max running low on energy beyond 250 yds. The velocity is down to 2920 fps with 606 ftlbs at 225 yds. That along with the explosive nature of the V-Max bullet no wonder we're getting the bad reports. If we look at the "Balistic Coefficient" it is below .2. That's why it looses steam so fast.
-Now let's look at a bullet with a great "B.C." and slightly less explosive; the 39gr Sierra Blitz King. The muzzle velocity is around 3850 (via Silverfox), nothing to bragg about. But look how far it holds its energy. Remember the 225yd #'s above. At 225yds the 39BK has 788ftlbs at 3017 fps and the energy stays above the 550 mark out to 375 yds where it is 558 ftlbs at 2539 fps. VERY impressive!(At least to me it is.) That's right on the heels of the 22-250 load that I shot. It didn't loose the flat trajectory of the 32gr either. The high point is 1.8" @ 150yds and @ 300yds it's -2.3" (@ the 375yd mark it's -8.0"). I hope some of you enjoy reading this as much as I enjoyed finding it. The #'s came from http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx .
GAJoe
 
Last edited:
You mention construction but you didn't take Sectional Density into consideration. It's these two factors combined with retained energy that get the bullet to where it needs to be to get the job done.
 
Energy means nothing if those dinky Vmaxes explode on contact. Its not always about Foot pounds and BC, so don't get carried away.

In this link guys are having PD's crawl away after being hit by the 204. Bullet performance like that will kill a coyote well on a perfect chest hit, but anywhere else, and you'll have a runnin' coyote.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb...page=0#52331601

I tried the lightweight ballistic tips on coyotes in my 223, and results were mixed. A SP bullet makes better sense on coyotes.

If you do decide on a .204, maybe trying the new Hornady 45 grain SP would make the best sense. Tiny ballistic tips can cause spash wounds in real life, its not just urban legend.

Here is a tiny coyote I shot with a 40 grain Vmax traveling about 3600 fps. This wound is the entrance wound!! This baby coyote was shot at about 60 yards, and spun and spun. Took a long time to expire. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif Guys tout the lightweight ballistic tips on coyotes, but I've tried them alot, and sometimes they are DRT, but many splash wounds, and runners. Not nearly as bad with 55 BT grainers in the 223, but the BT 40 grainers have trouble dispatching an Eastern coyote if the shot is not ideal. 39 grain BT in the .204 may not be the way to fly.


im000658.jpg


The bullet splashed badly upon entry, and just little pieces of jacket went into the dog. Less than ideal performance. I know Uncles Joe has killed 500 coyotes with his baby Vmaxes, but last I heard he was tracking his 501st.
My experience is 50/50, but your results may vary because of coyote size, and I imagine you are probably a better shot than I am. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Good hunting, Sleddogg /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
The 35gr Bergers is getting good reports on being "fur friendly" with small entrance with good penetration but it dosent hold energy as well. I'm going to try some of the 39gr BK's with good placement and see if the bullet and I are up to the task. I got a Savage 12VLP and took it to the range and zeroed it. It's a tack driver. The gun can make the shot. We'll see if I can. If I make good placement and the bullet dosen't do the job I'll look for another bullet.
I can always rebarrel to 22-250.
GAJoe
 
Georgiajoe - Just so I don't offend anyones caliber of choice, I'll add this copied from my reply in the firearms forum. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I believe sub calibers work great in the experts hands.

I rank the 204 as a round for an experienced caller who handloads, and practices the strickest of shot placement guidlines. If you are this seasoned rifleman and hunter the 204 will work absolutely wonderfully.

Bigger calibers with heavier bullets may suit the average guy better, in a sense that it will offer a little cushion in the event of a less that perfect hit.

Good hunting and shootin', Sleddogg /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
I think Sleddogg must have my number. My 223 with 55 gr SP's seems to keep me out of trouble [aka expert NOT!]..... I seem to hit what I'm shootin at and it keeps em from running off.

I have a lot to learn about calibers and loads, so keep it comming. I enjoy listening to you guys that know much more about it than me.....hopefully some will rub off!!
 
When I started reading your post I thought you were going to slam the .204. Instead, (if I am reading and understanding) you are saying the lightest bullets may not be that great. I sighted in my brand new rifle (just to get it on paper) with 32 grainers but always planned on using the 39 or 40 grain bullets. I like them a lot. Very accurate and kills really well. I agree .223's, 22-250's, .243/6mm's, .257's Roberts may be better overall. I do Love the Kimber 84M in .204 however.
 
Ok guys this is from Remington website bc - 204= .275, 22/250= .242, 223= .242 ok now 300 yards ftlb - 204= 824, 22/250= 910, 223= 701, now I think that the three of these are close enough that at three hundred yards well let put it this way. My opinion is that it's easy to say I shot a coyote and it crawled away and thats because I was using a 204 well who's to say had they been using a 22/250 it would not have crawled away also, the numbers are so close unless Remington is lying. Now had they said had I been using my 7mm mag it would not have crawled away I could go for this. But to blame the gun for gut shooting coyotes at 300 yds when the number are so close. Has anyone stopped to think that every situation is different sometimes they might be relaxed when you shoot sometimes they might have a little adrenalin rush so they run farther. I've been bow hunting since I was 10 and anytime you shoot at an alert deer they run farther then ones that had know idea you were their. I've also shot deer with my 7mm mag that the bullet split their heart and they drop in their tracks and some I shot split their hearts and they run 100 yards do you think I need a bigger gun /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif. I think the 22/250 and the 223 are both great rounds. I have a .204 and it seems to do just fine of coarse I haven't been black bear hunting yet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.
 
You can do all the number crunching that you want to. But the truth lies in the gun and the bullet, period. In my experience it is impossible to replicate what a bullet is doing with Math.

Somebody said "unless remington is lying", usually all bullet companies lie. But it's not alway a bad thing. Winchester for example, stated that my 300 WSM with 150gr Ballistic Tips are doing 3300fps at the muzzle. When shot from my M70 coyote on two different Chrono's it actually averaged just over 3400fps.

You can't tell how a bullet is going to perform by using a pen and paper. Shoot it, if it kills keep it, if it don't change.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I just did a search and found that Hornady offers 45 Grain Soft Point with muzzle velocity of 3625fps. That should have some good penetration. I guess we'll see.
GAJoe
 
Soreloser, 100% agreement. #'s are fun to look at and get a GUIDELINE but experience is the only real truth and even that will vary gun to gun and person to person.
 
Let me offer this up on 40 grain Vmax performance in the 223 and 221 FB. When my shots have been close (75 yards and in), or I hit anything other than ribs, there has always been spinning and a good bit of running. Splash wounds are real, especially on shoulders.

Interestingly enough, the longest shot I have ever made on a coyote was just a bit over 200 yards (I hunt in the timber 99.9 % of the time.) That shot was made with a 221 Fireball with a 40 grain Nosler BT. Although the hit was perfect, the coyote ran about 80 yards and colapsed. Pass through, quarter size exit. Good performance overall. Seems the Vmaxes would work great where ranges are a bit longer, and the bullet has scrubbed some speed. Also it goes without saying the shot and angle should be as ideal as possible.

Here he is:

DSC00301.jpg


Also you may want to examine the terrain you hunt, and hunting style. If its open/field style, sure little guns will do. If its fast action woods style hunting, you will want to caliber up, as bad hits are not "if" but "when" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

That being said do not rule out where you live. Big Eastern dogs do not die easy, and require some stompin'. I'm only at home carryin' a 243 in the woods for shooting stuff at odd angles. If you live in the East where 50 pounders are called a couple times a year, you may not want to be shooting a little Vmax at him. If you live out West, its obvious that 25 pound animals take 1/2 the killin' power of a 50 pounder. Crunch that number /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

Heres why:

Dsc00344.jpg



Just for the record, I've shot a few with a rimfire, but have to pass most shots for poor angles. Rather use a big gun and kill 'em, than use a little one and pass.

DSC00345.jpg


Many factors come into play when picking a calling caliber. None is right or wrong, just pick the one that best suits your style and experience level, as well as coyote size. Animal size is the wild card I never hear even discussed here. Big mistake.............

Best of Huntin' and shooting!, Sleddogg
 
There have been 3 "main" schools of thought regarding rifle terminal ballistics (what happens after the bullet hits an animal) and bullet/rifle type for a long time.

The Kinetic Energy School believes that the foot-pounds of energy that a bullet can deliver is what kills. What the bullet actually does to the animal in wound channel damage is secondary to the delivery of the energy. Massive systemic hydrostatic shock is the killer here. High velocity magnums (supposedly) work on this principle. However, if the bullet doesn't come to a stop inside the animal you haven't transferred all of it's energy to the animal. The depth of penetration will vary the time period over which the energy is released too. I'd rather take a million pounds of force to my head over a year's time than in a second.

The Big Channel school says that the biggest permanent wound channel possible is what counts. Causing a lot of permanent damage and a better chance of bleeding to death is the basis of this theory. It favors big bore bullets with lots of expansion, and works well. You have to match the bullet construction, weight, and velocity to the animal you are hunting, especially with larger game. Over expansion means not enough penetration, under expansion can mean a pencil hole. The ideal would be a bullet that had maximum expansion, maximum weight retention, and dropped to the ground just outside the skin on the offside of the animal. It's hard to argue that massive damage doesn't kill, but this one allows for bleed outs so depending on terrain/animal/etc, the animal could be difficult to find and it doesn't lend itself very well to taking fur either.

Modern high speed x-ray photographs of temporary wound channel displacement by bullets fired into ballistic gelatin has led to the Temporary Cavity School. They've observed that as a bullet travels through a body it temporarily displaces the tissue around it, forming a cavity shaped kind of like a football, which then shrinks back to the shape of the actual wound channel. This "school" holds that the larger the temporary cavity is the more nerve damage will occur. With this theory you want lighter, higher velocity bullets. This one works great until you have a quartering shot and your nosler comes apart (fails). This is the only theory formed by watching the affects while they are happening, but they have only been observed in gelatin, not living flesh.

Frangible (v-max, etc) bullets probably need a theory of their own since what they are designed to do (fragment) is considered bullet failure in the traditional lines of thought. However we all know from experience what the downsides are here, a splash if you hit bone, no blow up if the bullet doesn't have enough velocity at impact or too quick a blow up if it still has too much velocity. When conditions are right, they do a great job of killing and are probably the most fur friendly bullet type.

Hunters have successfully taken many thousands of animals while supposedly holding to one theory or another (or none) when making a bullet/caliber choice, and the debates can get hot and heavy.

They all are workable theories and they all will produce "runners" from time to time. As someone stated even a perfectly shot animal can run if it already has adrenaline in it's veins.

Some of Leon's "Self Evident Truths":

The only "sure DRT shot" is to take out the brain stem or upper spine. That's just not usually possible in the real world unless you have a lot of opportunities to choose your shot from.

Shot placement is the most critical, but still no guarantee without a nervous system hit.

Shot placement is even more critical if you use v-max type bullets.

Since a fur friendly round is an under performer in the killing sense by necessity, you should be a very good shot and sure of placement before using them.

Any given hunter will have more runners when taking fur than when just trying to kill.

If you're really really serious about taking fur, you should be trapping, not shooting.

We often get into debates over the efficacy of one rifle/caliber/bullet over another for coyotes. Kimber vs Sako vs Rem vs whatever, AR's vs bolt, 204 vs 17 Rem vs 223 vs 22-250, Leuppy vs Nikon, and on and on (me too). I like having a wide variety of toys and I like to debate as much as anyone BUT...

For the new guys just getting into predator hunting and at the ranges they are likely to be shooting, that $200 unscoped 30-30 is maybe the best rifle there is (and I rarely use mine either, LOL).
 
Actually, I have only one school of thought. Use a 243 Win with a hotly loaded 85 grain Sierra BTHP GK, and its bang flop, just about any angle, ALMOST every time. DRT? Yup, unless you count a twitchin' tail or stiff legs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just kiddin' Leon, thanks for the insight, and the 30-30 is a good round for 'yotes here in the East. Good info!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
WOW, you guys must call in some tough coyotes. Like I have said before, I have never been under the impression that coyotes are hard to kill.
I use a model 700 with hand loaded 40 grain V-Max bullets chronographed at around 4000fps at the muzzle.
Unless I pierce an ear, hit a dog in the leg or tail they go down hard!
I have shot them in the head, shoulders, chest and guts and dont have problems with coyotes getting away.
I have killed them at arms length and out to over 350 yards and killed them with the 40 grain V's through my 22-250.
The only 40 grain V-Max that has ever made it clear through the coyotes chest was one I hit at around 350 yards.
I just try to hit the coyote with the V's and if I do, it dies. Ron
 
Hi Ron - An incredibly long shot around here is 200 yards. Most are much under.

The part that most Westerers don't realize, is our coyotes can (and do) many times weigh twice the size of their Western cousins. Add fast action woods hunting where the shot comes now or never at tough angles is why we crave large guns.

I'm sure a 25 pound coyote is easily dispatched by most calibers. When they start to get small wolf size, its a different ballgame.

If I was sniping coyotes at 350 yards in the open, I'm sure the 204 would be fine. If I live in a more open area, I'm sure the 223 Remington would be my gun of choice. I don't, so its not, but for good reason /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

When a caller comments on calibers, I try to keep his geographic area in mind. Different hunting styles, terrain, and coyote size all come into play. The coyote kind of tells you how much gun you need. Ron for your style of hunting, and dog size the 204 is fine.

Not fine here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I haven't killed near the # of coyotes many of you have, but I have had nothing but great results with .204 40 v-max on yotes. 300yds and under and they are flat dead. I have only taken one past 300yds and it was 425yds. I got too far forward and shot right threw the shoulder. It went alittle ways before expiring but that was just bad shot placement on my part. One thing about a bullet that doesn't exit is that you are transfering all of the bullets energy to the animal instead of blowing some of it out the exit! Yes you have to have enough penetration and be in the vitals, but the v-max bullets are like c-4 inside of an animal. Everything is destroyed.
 
Sleddog, I dont own a .204 Ruger. I shoot the 40 grain V-Max's through a 22-250.
I have killed more than one coyote out here that weighed over 40lbs.
I realize that the coyote/dogs back east are bigger than what we shoot out here but I think the 40's are plenty for most canines.
I have killed a bunch with the 40 grain V-Max through my 22-250. Believe me they work fine. I would bet that they would work fine on big dogs too. Ron
 
I killed my frist dog on the minnesota and canada line with an iron sight 30-30. but untill i see how this 45 sp works the 204 stays home, i'm not take that chance.
 
I had no idea this thread would get so much response. The main point I was trying to make was that the touted 4200fps of the 32 V-Max gets attention. I've used it as an opening line myself when I tell someone I have a .204. Many guys have bought a 204 and some 32V-max's and taken them coyote hunting to be let down by the 32 V-max but blame the caliber. But when I crunched the numbers and saw that at 225yds it's already down to 2920fps/606ftlbs and the 39BK that started at 3850 is doing 3017fps/788ftlbs I thought it was worth bringing to 204 shooters attention so they would select the better round and not be disappointed with the gun/caliber. And yes they should know that the shot has to be placed with precision to get a clean kill. (Precision, that's what .204's are good at. Now the shooter's another question.)

Most rounds commercially loaded for the .204 are for PDs. And us coyote hunting 204 shooters are trying find a combination that can cross the line and produce clean kills on coyote. The 45gr Accutip sounds worth trying. I'll have to see if my gun can shoot it. And I know it'll still have to be placed correctly. We need to let the bullet manufacturers know our market needs to be addressed. I know we don't shoot a fraction of the number of rounds that the PD shooters do but I hope Sierra will make a .204 in the Game King line. If it can perform as well as the BK with accuracy and energy retention without the explosive nature of a ballistic tip it'll be the goto bullet for coyote in .204. If you can get a bullet that will penetrate at 350+yds with 550 ftlbs of knock down you will have a winner, even on the big dogs. It'll not splash on the surface and be able to get the job done (still when placed correctly). I have a .243 but I can't shoot it as well at 300yds; and some of my setups have 300+yd shots. I think I can do it with the 204. I guess I'll find out. I wouldn't be doing the coyote any favors to use my .243 if I make a gut shot.

The best advise I've been given about hunting in years is "Know your gun."(How it shoots at different ranges.) now I've added "Know your round."
GAJoe
 
Last edited:
Back
Top