Cooper VS Dakota

3

3dogs

New member
Is there much of a difference between these two rifle makers? Seen a Copper in .223 for a decent price, reminds me a lot of a Dakota, but have not seen alot of either one, alone put them side by side.
Thanks
 
If you ever get a chance, check out First Stop Guns in Rapid City, SD. They are just a few miles down the road from Dakota Arms and they always have a good stock of Dakotas and Coopers on hand so you can compare the two side-by-side.

If you're comparing the varmint rifles, there is no comparison in my mind. The new Dakota Predator has way too much wood in the stock for the action size and just does not feel as good in the hands as a Cooper does. Also, for the approximate three times difference in price betwen the two, you're not getting a rifle capable of shooting three times better, if any at all.

The Dakotas in the larger caliber hunting style rifles are very nice and have the advantage of being repeaters whereas any Cooper, even in a sporter configuration, will be a single shot.

Overall, if I was buying a varmint style rifle, I would buy the Cooper and not look back. If I was buying a general purpose hunting rifle, I would throw out the extra cash for the Dakota 76 to have a repeater versus a single shot, but I'd realize I wasn't getting twice as much rifle in quality, etc., for twice the money.

JMO - BCB
 
I agree with Jack big step up with a Dakota just pull up their web site and look at calibers and options then look at Coopers. Cooper makes a pretty nice single shot varmit rifle. Big difference between actions and I'd take the control feed Dakota over the push feed Copper any day. I've hear that Cooper may come out with a repeater action but in a larger caliber like the mag would the magazine cut out weaken their action or would they have to design a new one. Takes a good action and stock to handle a 450 Dakota.
Just my .02
 
Quote:
Big difference between actions and I'd take the control feed Dakota over the push feed Copper any day.



To clarify what I said above, I was not comparing two different action types and rifle designs as illustrated between the Dakota Model 76 repeating action and the Cooper Varminter design.

What I was comparing between the two companies was the Cooper Varminter design with the Dakota Predator design as far a dollar value goes. The actions and the rifles are similar in quite a few ways:

1. Both rifle use a push feed single shot only action.

2. The Cooper action for the .223 bolt head has three locking lugs. The Dakota Predator action has two bolt lugs and is actually a modified Nesika Bay action.

3. Both rifles come in a varmint or sporter profiles.

My main issue with the Dakota versus the Cooper varmint rifles, other than the "fat" feeling stock on the Predator, is the price.

1. Base price for a wood stocked Cooper Varminter is $1198 - base price for a wood stocked Dakota Predator in varmint configuration is $3295.

2. Base price for a sporter configed Cooper is $1398, for the Dakota Predator it's $4295.

To me, spending that much more for a rifle that won't shoot comparably better for the price and does not look comparably better for the price is not worth it to me. If I win the Lotto, I might buy a Dakota Predator with all the whistles and bells just because $10k would not be an obstacle and I could say I owned one. Until that happens, my money spent for a varmint rifle will get me a lot more value with a Cooper when I can by three Coopers for roughly the price of one Dakota Predator, and both will be very equal in accuracy. And both are not hard to look at either.....

In talking big game repeating rifles, the Dakota Model 76 action desinged in 1986 by Don Allen and Pete Grisel can't be compared to a Cooper rifle because Cooper does not make a comparable rifle. Even though Cooper does chamber for rounds such as the 308 Win and the 25-06 Rem, they are Model 22 action rifles which are just up-sized Model 21 single shot action designs.

In contrast, the Model 76 combines the best features of the pre-64 Model 70 action with a Mauser-type extractor...along with a number of innovations that are strictly Dakota, which make for a very attractive and functional repeating rifle. If you're in the market for a good quality repeating rifle, the Dakota is a great choice, even though the current "new and bigger" post Don Allen company does not turn out the same quality the Don Allen era of rifles at Dakota Arms once were.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify I was not trying to compare apples with watermelons.....or single shot varmint rifles with claw extractor big game rifles.

-BCB
 
Hey, Todd:

LOL!! You're trolling trying to get me into trouble, aren't ya'? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Do Kimbers have barrels????? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Hope all is well.....in spite of your efforts to bait me... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

-BCB
 
I sure don't know were people are getting there price but on Dakota site they have a pretty fancy AAA Claro Walnut Predator LH 20ppc SS barrel and action for $3545. You can get one with a Composite stock for around $2645. Dakota makes two model Predator rifles and you are limited to 13 calibers on that one action. Jack may be able to help on this but think Nesika is making the Predator action, Dakota may even own Nesika. Nesika is making acouple model varmit rifles don't think the stock is as fancy as the Dakota but price is around $3500/$3700.
I own a Cooper rifle they offer some pretty nice varmit rifles at a good price. I don't own a Dakota but think the Predator model would shoot as good if not better than the Cooper.
 
roper:

The prices I quoted for both rifles are list prices and came directly off the Cooper and Dakota Arms web sites - yesterday. I don't know how to accurately compare prices without using listed retail. Using anything else and you get into regional differences, etc., etc. Dakota has products and prices that are different between their inventory and store sections for new orders versus existing inventory.

Granted, rifles don't always sell for what the listed/suggested retail price is for either rifle, but there is a still a huge gap in price between DA and Cooper and what they actually sell for. In reality, the DA rifles are typically selling cheaper than listed because most folks don't want to pay listed prices. With Cooper it's somewhat the other way around as Coopers are in better demand and genereally sell for right around list price.

I can help you on the Nesika Bay quetions if that's OK - Yes, Nesika Bay is part of the "new and improved" Dakota Arms which has been formed since Don Allen's death. As I stated in my post above.....the Predator action is a Nesika Bay design but is not identical to the NB action itself.

Don founded Dakota Arms and since his death it has beocme a mini-mega corp with an emphasis on making a dollar while still trying to turn out an excellent product. Some in the firearms industry question if it will survive with the acquisitions/business deals it has/is taking on including having Lapau make proprietary brass for rifles that will sell in the neighborhood of $1 for each piece of Tac 20 brass, etc. (I can and do easily make my own Tac 20 brass for @ 10 cents each - for me having DA on the headstamp is not worth the extra 90 cents).

DA has also bought the exclusive rights to all of Todd Kindlers cartridges and is putting their name to them to name another business acquisition...and there are others. I have heard rumors that both deals mentioned are moving forward under less than sunny skies....

This approach is not how Don Allen ran a very successful company in the past. He devoted his time to building a limited quantity/excellent quality product rivaling a full custom rifle at a very competitive price.

In response to your last comment, I have no doubt a DA Predator will shoot with a Cooper in terms of accuracy. I'm just not willing to pay the extra money for a name that isn't what it used to be.....nor do I want the extra stock wood left on the Predator....and I have put some of my money in both companies in the past.... Until DA comes back down to earth, I doubt I will be putting much more in their pocket, however. At this time, I can get better value for my dollar several places elsewhere.....

Again, just my opinion. - BCB

-BCB
 
Todd,

Don`t even get BCB started on that one(cooper vs. kimber)i had my first post on this site Cooper or Kimber and it had over 1500 posts and got down to "whose dogs fleas were smarter" before it was over,BCB should remember that one.

Phil. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
Last edited:
Philip, I remember the post, and just couldn't help myself from prompting BCB a little. Sorry you got introduced to PM with such an ugly post.

Love your signature line, by the way!
Todd
 
Hi, Philip:

So you were the culprit.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I remember it, too. LOL!! I made a statement about Cooper's re-barrel policy for original owners and had the "dogs of war" coming at me from all directions in disbelief. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif One dude even questioned my ancestry, or parentage, or something...

Good old Todd...he just hung in the shadows and when no one woud call Cooper to get the facts like I suggested, he did, and the answer he got saved me and my family from a "drive by death" of some sort.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ahhhhh...the internet....maybe I need to un-retire and get a job. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

-BCB
 
FWIW... I know two guys that were shipped pre-production samples of the Dakota Predator to test. Both liked the rifles, a lot. But neither guy thinks they are worth the asking price. When the prototypes were sent to them for testing, the price was supposed to end up being about $1500. Both thought it would be a nice rifle for THAT price, but not for the much higher price it ended up at. Both own multiple Coopers. Both have since bought at least one more Cooper each, but tell me they don't ever intend on buying the Predator.

I own three Nesika's myself. Two of them from before Dakota bought Nesika (they are both in the same building now). In fact, my first Nesika has a single digit serial number -- it was one from the first production run of Model K's ever made. Buying the most recent one, a Model T, from the new organization was a lot less personal and a lot more hassle (phone calls not returned etc.) than buying the first two. Did finally get the order in, and it shipped on time, and I've had the action for probably getting close to a year now. It's a nice action. But, the finish and attention to detail is NOT as nice as my two older "pre Dakota" Nesika's. The action has small, subtle signs of "production" on it. Where as the two older ones have small, subtle signs of "custom work and attention to detail" on them. In actuality, the new one is probably made to tighter tolerances and with greater precision than the older ones. But the experience sure was a lot different than back when I would call and talk to Glen himself about my actions, and like I said, the finish isn't quite as nice as it used to be either -- very small machine marks, chatter in the grooves of the bolt fluting etc. Nothing that will affect function or accuracy, but you don't see any of that on the older ones.

Like I said to begin with though, this is all just "for what it's worth", which probably ain't much for most of you.

- DAA
 
Nobody even mentioned the coolest Dakota of all, the model 10. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif DAA answered my one question. I too had heard the new Nesika/Dakota predator rifle was going to be priced much lower. I figured with those 2 names on it, at that price, can't go wrong. I should have known it was too good to be true. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif I'm with BCB as far as value goes, the Cooper is the better deal(especially with all those free barrels /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif). But that Dakota walnut is oh so sweet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif ---2MG
 
Hey, 2MG:

Now don't go using the fxxx barrel statement around here....you'll just get DAA and me into trouble again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I was actuallly saving my money when the Predators were first announced with their original suggested price....and then the price kept going higher and higher as they got closer to dealer shelves. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

After I actually picked a Predator up and held it and looked it over, I knew in my mind at least that I had been lucky to get out early after the first couple of price increases and spend my money elsewhere. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

JMO, again. - BCB
 
Like you and DAA don't do enough to get yourselves into trouble /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I'm confident you guys don't need my help (although I'm quite happy to provide it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif )---2MG
 
From my perspective I see these two guns aimed at very different markets even though they have lots in common. Yes, you can purchase a spendy cooper, no doubt, but a varminter around here is just around $1k which is a reasonable "upgrade" from factory rifles in the $600-$800 range, which is most. I think once you consider cooper as a semi custom "upgrade" you can then get into brand recognition type stuff and buy a very expensive cooper just because you've fallen in love with the rifle/company, etc. Not every cooper costs an arm and a leg, it would be an interesting statistic to see where the bulk of their sales lie, with less expensive varminters or more expensive models, etc. The dakota on the other hand is not going to get any introductory "upgrade" sales, their market I would think is comprised of people with money to spend who WANT to spend it on an expensive rifle. For instance, my local dealer is a large cooper dealer and whenever I go in there to check something out, I always hear "well, you can have so and so rifle or a cooper varminter for a few bucks more, which is out of the box a much better rifle" makes sense. I have never heard, "you can have so and so rifle or for $2300 more, a dakota" and they have plenty of dakotas on the racks too. See what Im saying? Perhaps it is doubtful that a dakota shoots any better than a cooper and if they consistently do in fact shoot better, its doubtful that the average owner will shoot it well enough to see the difference, but thats all my opinion and conjecture, so whatever. The dakota rifles I have seen at the shop are very pretty and command a level of repsect from a craftsmanship perspective, but in many ways they really remind me of hi-fi stereo which is an entire industry based upon "if it is more expensive, it must be more better". There are guys that just want to buy an expensive rifle and I believe dakota is providing a service for that group of people, perhaps the people who werent satisfied with the most expensive cooper they could have ordered? Im sure they are out there. Anyhow, to compare the two I think is a lot like comparing a $70K luxury vehicle to a $200K bentley. For $70K you get a really awesome car and the bentley in most cases likely does not totally and completely out perform the cheaper car, at $70K you are getting quality no matter how you cut it. The bentley is really just geared for an entirely different class of people, guys with money to burn, or simply put, guys that can just afford it, so they do, guys that have so much money that when they want to "treat themselves" they need to spend $200K because spending $70K on a fine car isnt extravagant enough to make the event feel "special". I think the dakota thing is a lot like that. Surely its a disappointment for the people who were looking forward to a dakota after their price announcement a while back but perhaps the company has just redefined its business plan for itself or the image of company it wants to put onto the public. Id also bet there are guys that have to save for a long time to afford a dakota and just go and get one because they love them, I dont mean to make it out like its a "rich mans" rifle or something but think the price is just aimed at a different market than the cooper is therefore making a direct comparison not wrong but maybe missing the point a little bit. Ive driven a bentley and Ive driven a porsche and that bently aint 3 times the car a 911 is but you are definitely the only guy on the road in a bentley and for some folks I guess that must be worth paying the extra money, I would guess that status plays into expensive firearms the same way.
 
Back
Top