Flat-base vs boat-tail
- Thread starter GLMyers
- Start date
A buddy of mine and I have discussed this topic at great length. Since the boattail design is really only a benefit at extreme ranges, albeit, not even that much of an advantage, we have always felt that the flat base was a better design based on how the energy force hits the bullet as it leaves the case. With a flat base bullet you have less of a chance that the force will hit a wierd angle and launch the bullet into the rifling cockeyed. I am no scientist, but I shoot a ton and feel better with a flat base bullet. Just my opinion. Problem is that the current trend is towards the boattail, so can't always get what you want. Also, I think the benchrest guys shoot what performs best and that seems to be flatbase bullets. I will take accuracy and speed over all else.......That's just me.
coyote control
New member
Yap...I agree with what SamSpade says!
Also like what NV30378 says also: "I think the benchrest guys shoot what performs best and that seems to be flatbase bullets".
Also like what NV30378 says also: "I think the benchrest guys shoot what performs best and that seems to be flatbase bullets".
FIREMAN40X
New member
A flat-based bullet will out shoot any boat-tail in less than 300 yards....Hands down. All your top br bullet makers...ei. Fowler, BIB, Euber, Cheek...are making flat-based bullets. Boat-tails are meant for longer ranges. Think about a Quaterback throwing a pass. As the football initially leaves his hand the ball kinda rotates off axis, but as the ball travels further down range it will start to true up.
Gari
Gari
Well since I don't take a 20 pound bench gun to the field with me, I don't think I'll ever see a difference in accuracy between a flat based bullet and a boattail.
AND since terminal performance is much more important than 1/4" difference in accuracy, considering you'll wobble more than a quarter inch in the field, AND since the only time bullet accuracy really becomes a factor is when you take a long shot, I'll take a nice wind bucking, high bc, ballistic tipped boattail any day of the week.
But hey, that's just me.
AND since terminal performance is much more important than 1/4" difference in accuracy, considering you'll wobble more than a quarter inch in the field, AND since the only time bullet accuracy really becomes a factor is when you take a long shot, I'll take a nice wind bucking, high bc, ballistic tipped boattail any day of the week.
But hey, that's just me.
Christopher
New member
My 30/06 was always loaded with Flat based bullets and shot ok but this summer I loaded Sierra SPBT's and did they tighten up the the group at 100 yards! (off the bench) I was suprised of the difference. This is for a hunting rifle not a bench rest gun.
Roadrunner
New member
I don't know if you can still get them but JLK made some low drag flat base bullets in 55 and 60 grain that shoot great. The 60's had the same bc as the 69 sierra's (.339). Just my $.02 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif RR
Welcome to the board Mr. Myers.
I doubt if you will see a difference in hunting situations. I believe boattails produce better accuracy at long range but most predators are shot close up. In addition, I feel the BR bullet makers produce a higher grade of bullet than normal match and hunting ones. Therefore the high grade rifles shoot them better. Flatbase bullets have been shot for many years with great success.
www.benchrest.com should have more info for you.
I doubt if you will see a difference in hunting situations. I believe boattails produce better accuracy at long range but most predators are shot close up. In addition, I feel the BR bullet makers produce a higher grade of bullet than normal match and hunting ones. Therefore the high grade rifles shoot them better. Flatbase bullets have been shot for many years with great success.
www.benchrest.com should have more info for you.
chuckaholic
New member
Few people have the technique or equipment to be able to see a difference in accuracy between the two.
NV30378 is pretty close to the reason for FB bullets it has to do with the pressure ring on FB bullets. If you pull up the site on BR bullets most give the ring size and if you load pretty close to max get alittle better cases capacity with a FB bullet. Use to be a BR shooter back east and if you knew the bore size could order pressure ring size to match.
They have always made boattail bullets for BR shooters sometimes they cost alittle more to make up not everyone has the dies for them either.
When you get to shooting a 5r or 5c barrel BT bullets work alitttle better and to shoot the 600/1000yd matches seems like the LVD bullets work good which are BT. I say 90% of my shooting is with FB bullets and I hate to admit it but in my other life I won a match or two with a BT bullet used FB at 100 then sometimes depending on conditions a BT at 200/300yds I been out of it for awhile so don't know if there is much 300yd group shooting anymore I thing they still do the hunter BR to 300yds. Well good luck.
They have always made boattail bullets for BR shooters sometimes they cost alittle more to make up not everyone has the dies for them either.
When you get to shooting a 5r or 5c barrel BT bullets work alitttle better and to shoot the 600/1000yd matches seems like the LVD bullets work good which are BT. I say 90% of my shooting is with FB bullets and I hate to admit it but in my other life I won a match or two with a BT bullet used FB at 100 then sometimes depending on conditions a BT at 200/300yds I been out of it for awhile so don't know if there is much 300yd group shooting anymore I thing they still do the hunter BR to 300yds. Well good luck.
The response to my question on bullets was great. I've read the forum for a while and I knew I'd get some super info. I am addicted to shooting,reloading,and varmint hunting. I now have another dozen reasons to start experimenting again with flat base bullets. Seems like in the last five years or so I've gravitated to just about 100% boat tails. That's probably because they are shooting good for me in the several rifles I generally use. My old walking rifle is a Savage 24V in 222Rem over a 3" 20ga and the yotes sure hate to see me coming with it. When I first got it, I shot strictly flat base and it wasn't hard to get 1 to 1 1/2" groups. Now it seems to like VMax. Maybe it's finally broke in after 20 years. Go figure.
I sure wished I had a cool name like most of the forum users. Wonder if I could change my forum name?
I sure wished I had a cool name like most of the forum users. Wonder if I could change my forum name?
FIREMAN40X
New member
A lot can be said from some of the posts on here. The point made about not seeing any difference in the field less than 200 yards is a very valid point. An even better point is can the rifle be held to achieve that differnce, Probably NOT. While I truely believe that flat-based bullets are better suited for the short run....can a hunter tell it in the field. For me, and this is only my opinion, I'll take accuracy over performance.....That's just me though
Gari
Gari
BroncoGlenn
New member
The biggest problem with boat tail bullets of standard construction is that the core and jacket typically seperates on impact, also known as bullet failure. The core simply slips out of the jacket, much like trying to rope a bull by a horn.
Now then bullets that are an exception to this rule are those that have bonded cores, or a locking "heel" type jacket design.
For varmint bullets where penetration isn't much of an issue, bullet failure is of little concern. But when shooting at big game you want penetration and not bullets that fall apart.
Now then bullets that are an exception to this rule are those that have bonded cores, or a locking "heel" type jacket design.
For varmint bullets where penetration isn't much of an issue, bullet failure is of little concern. But when shooting at big game you want penetration and not bullets that fall apart.
Quote:
A flat-based bullet will out shoot any boat-tail in less than 300 yards....Hands down. All your top br bullet makers...ei. Fowler, BIB, Euber, Cheek...are making flat-based bullets. Boat-tails are meant for longer ranges. Think about a Quaterback throwing a pass. As the football initially leaves his hand the ball kinda rotates off axis, but as the ball travels further down range it will start to true up.
Gari
Gari,
I do agree that most BR shooters are shooting flat based bullets right now, but some of the hottest shooters are using Bruno's Double "O" boatails. Jackie Schmidt, Lester Bruno, Lawerence Wiesdorn, and others have been winning major matches-including some of the 05 National yardages with this bullet. They are getting some tiny groups, and aggs. I have personally watched regional shooters out of Visaila, and Phoenix kick some major butt with it at the state level. Don't be surprised if Brunos boatails start showing up on the top equipment lists in the next couple of years. They are more finicky to tune for from what I hear. Jef Fowler just sent me my lastest order of 66 grain fb's, but I am going to give the Brunos a try in the near future.
Having said that, I don't think you need to worry about flat based verses boatails either for killing stuff. Both will do the job if you do yours.
A flat-based bullet will out shoot any boat-tail in less than 300 yards....Hands down. All your top br bullet makers...ei. Fowler, BIB, Euber, Cheek...are making flat-based bullets. Boat-tails are meant for longer ranges. Think about a Quaterback throwing a pass. As the football initially leaves his hand the ball kinda rotates off axis, but as the ball travels further down range it will start to true up.
Gari
Gari,
I do agree that most BR shooters are shooting flat based bullets right now, but some of the hottest shooters are using Bruno's Double "O" boatails. Jackie Schmidt, Lester Bruno, Lawerence Wiesdorn, and others have been winning major matches-including some of the 05 National yardages with this bullet. They are getting some tiny groups, and aggs. I have personally watched regional shooters out of Visaila, and Phoenix kick some major butt with it at the state level. Don't be surprised if Brunos boatails start showing up on the top equipment lists in the next couple of years. They are more finicky to tune for from what I hear. Jef Fowler just sent me my lastest order of 66 grain fb's, but I am going to give the Brunos a try in the near future.
Having said that, I don't think you need to worry about flat based verses boatails either for killing stuff. Both will do the job if you do yours.
NM Leon
New member
This is part of an article by Corbin:
When a flat base bullet flys through the air at any velocity, it displaces an equal volume of air which then rushes in behind the passing bullet to fill the vaccuum. This happens at any velocity. But at speeds below Mach I (speed of sound), the drag caused by this turbulence is greater than most of the other forces slowing down the bullet. When the sound barrier is crossed, the air is compressed faster than it can move out of the way, and it compacts into a dense wave that is dragged along by the nose of the bullet. Moving this compressed shock wave adsorbs far more energy than the turbulent base drag. Thus, at super-sonic speeds, the nose shape has a greater effect than the base shape on the total retardation of the bullet (as a percentage of total drag).
If the base of the bullet were made more streamlined, then the air would be put back together more smoothly, with less turbulence, and would fill the space left by the passing bullet more quickly. This would eliminate much of the base drag. Putting a point on both ends of the bullet accomplishes this, but it generally makes the bullet too long, so that it takes up too much powder space or causes other physical problems in a practical size cartridge case or gun. There is no technical reason why a double-ended bullet should not be used to overcome drag, except for these physical considerations.
The next best idea is to use a truncated conical shape on the base, so that the bullet has some degree of streamlining to help reduce base turbulence. The conventional boattail does this reasonably well. By having a base that is made of an angled portion of the shank, the size of the flat base is reduced so that the turbulence works on a smaller area. A typical, practical size of boattail has from nine to fifteen degrees (measured from the center-line of the bullet) and is about a caliber long. There is no great difference in the performance of any specific angle or length within this general range.
The boattail reduces base drag at all velocities, but has the greatest percentage of effect when the bullet is flying at sub-sonic velocity. Thus, it is more important for slow bullets, or bullets fired at long ranges, than for bullets which will be moving at super-sonic speed over their entire path to the target. Ideally, pistol bullets should be boattails. However, due to the length and weight limitations imposed on most pistol bullets, this superior design is rarely used for handguns. It is often applied to rifle designs where it will have relatively little effect, but is primarily effective for promotional purposes.
Full article here:
http://www.wildcatbullets.homestead.com/BulletTheory.html
When a flat base bullet flys through the air at any velocity, it displaces an equal volume of air which then rushes in behind the passing bullet to fill the vaccuum. This happens at any velocity. But at speeds below Mach I (speed of sound), the drag caused by this turbulence is greater than most of the other forces slowing down the bullet. When the sound barrier is crossed, the air is compressed faster than it can move out of the way, and it compacts into a dense wave that is dragged along by the nose of the bullet. Moving this compressed shock wave adsorbs far more energy than the turbulent base drag. Thus, at super-sonic speeds, the nose shape has a greater effect than the base shape on the total retardation of the bullet (as a percentage of total drag).
If the base of the bullet were made more streamlined, then the air would be put back together more smoothly, with less turbulence, and would fill the space left by the passing bullet more quickly. This would eliminate much of the base drag. Putting a point on both ends of the bullet accomplishes this, but it generally makes the bullet too long, so that it takes up too much powder space or causes other physical problems in a practical size cartridge case or gun. There is no technical reason why a double-ended bullet should not be used to overcome drag, except for these physical considerations.
The next best idea is to use a truncated conical shape on the base, so that the bullet has some degree of streamlining to help reduce base turbulence. The conventional boattail does this reasonably well. By having a base that is made of an angled portion of the shank, the size of the flat base is reduced so that the turbulence works on a smaller area. A typical, practical size of boattail has from nine to fifteen degrees (measured from the center-line of the bullet) and is about a caliber long. There is no great difference in the performance of any specific angle or length within this general range.
The boattail reduces base drag at all velocities, but has the greatest percentage of effect when the bullet is flying at sub-sonic velocity. Thus, it is more important for slow bullets, or bullets fired at long ranges, than for bullets which will be moving at super-sonic speed over their entire path to the target. Ideally, pistol bullets should be boattails. However, due to the length and weight limitations imposed on most pistol bullets, this superior design is rarely used for handguns. It is often applied to rifle designs where it will have relatively little effect, but is primarily effective for promotional purposes.
Full article here:
http://www.wildcatbullets.homestead.com/BulletTheory.html
I see there is still some interest in my origianl post. Considering that I consider myself only average when it comes to shooting knowledge and applying what I've learned, I probably should go with whatever gives the greatest number of shooters the best accuracy. Like I mentioned, now I have a lot more excuses to experiment with flat base bullets. I get about the same charge out of shooting a one hole group as I do busting a yote. Some day I'd like to get into bench rest shooting and buy a custom rifle. Dream on huh? I'd have to work until I was too old to hold the rifle.