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#3286927 - 12/04/21 12:22 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Bowhntr6pt Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 04/09/13
Posts: 1046
Loc: Central Florida
Originally Posted By: varminter .223
Shot two rounds this morning. It has now shifted 1.25" to 1.5" under the handwarmer.
To sum it up it started high right in handwarmer yesterday morning, low left on edge to just outside handwarmer yesterday evening and now slight right and low by close to 1.5". Two shot groups are always tight and sub moa just like with good day optics. This thing is starting to make pulsar stuff look good.

Over all test to test group center to center is 1.75" horizontal spread and 2.5" vertical spread. That means if I zero to never be lower than dead on at 100 I could potentially be as high as 4" or more at 150 and 175 and have about a 315 yards zero or I could be 6 inches low at 300 and dead on at 100....what a mess.
Tightening mount to holy crap thats tight level had no affect as far as I can tell at this point.


I hate to see this... I know it's got to be frustrating as all get out.

I'm in the market for a second thermal and was looing hard at the SY.

EuroOptics had the Trijicon Hunter MK III's on sale a couple months ago for $6K and I had my agency purchase two units for our SWAT team (I'm the team Commander) and was going to snatch one up but they are now OOS. I missed out. My Hunter MK III has been absolutely perfect sine I got it.

Was very interested in giving Pulsar a second look with the Trail 2, but not if issues are present.

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#3286932 - 12/04/21 12:58 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
DoubleUp Online
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 12/18/10
Posts: 4052
Loc: USA
V3, one of the things I learned with the Pulsar Apex was to always sight in after the sun went down or in the dark. That scope never moved more than one click in the 3 years I shot it, but if I shot it with the sun up high in the sky it would shoot 3 inches high every time. At first I would adjust it so that it would be dead on at 100 and then when I would check it right before hunting it would be 3 inches low, and I would have to go back to my original settings. So I just quit messing with it during bright daylight hours and if I needed to verify my zero, I would wait until the sun fell below the horizon.

Although the SY didn't appear to have that consistent change when I was initially trying to zero it, I just decided it was best to zero under the low light conditions I hunt in. Anyway, mine is working great now as I said previously, and I hope you can get yours sorted out. If not, you can always send it in and have them check it.
_________________________
Glow Bull Warming:
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Psalm 2:4




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#3286943 - 12/04/21 02:10 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Kirsch Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 3283
Loc: USA
Well, here goes a couple of thoughts and ideas. Some of these may apply or none of them may apply.

POI Issues:
The majority of POI issues I have encountered with the Hogsters, Super Hogsters, and Super Yoters is due to the thermal being mounted too far back. On a Hogster or Super Hogster with their Tactical QD mount I would recommend at least 3 slots in and that is even stretching it. With their compact design, people tend to scoot them way back (even on ARs). I just talked to my fur buyer who's SH is not holding zero. When I asked him what rail slot, he had it on the very last one. It is barely hanging on the gun. There isn't enough rail to hold consistent POI. Tiny little shifts cause a lot of movement downrange.

Now on to the SY. The LaRue mount is very nice on the SY. However, it has a brand new design that doesn't feature a standard rail post. Good or bad, this means it has to be even further in. I have mine 6 rail slots in. I believe in my review and since I have mentioned make sure the entire length of the rail is supported. This is one of many reasons why I have a riser extension on both my AR and my bolt.

I do have one gun that seems at times to wander slightly. I believe it is due to the rail. It is never very far off. What I found is on this gun, if I simply re-seat the QD mount before shooting, my zero is back. I can't explain it but I have mentioned it to others and a few people have found this to be true. This is showing something on the rail is again keeping the mount from being able to stay in the exact position. The LaRue is so good at keeping zero, on this gun I simply open, seat it, and close, and my zero is perfect again. I really can't blame the mount as it happened on my SH and the SY, so it must be an out of spec rail or something.

Other things already mentioned is the mount being too tight or too loose. It is amazing how many people I talk to that say their POI is changing and when I ask if they adjusted their tension to their rail, they didn't realize they could. I realize this is not the case here, but just stating in general.

Also, if a person makes cam tension adjustments, the POI most likely will shift. It grabs and holds to the rail differently. If moving it from gun to gun, I would write down how many adjustments clicks left or right you do from gun to gun. It won't be massively different, but every minor change on a QD mount has an impact. In a perfect world, find a cam adjustment that works well on all your guns and leave it. I am starting to believe that over-tightening is just as bad as under-tightening.

Missing Coyotes: I believe there are multiple reasons this can and does happen even if the POI isn't the issue with a thermal scope.

One of the biggest reason is "height above bore". Many people use a 1 or 2" above center zero at 100. They say things like I've been doing this with glass scopes for years. Put a 3" above bore setting into a ballistics calculator vs 1.5" and you will see quickly it puts the flight of the bullet too high through the majority of the main kill distances for coyotes. There is no reason to set yourself that high for the majority of your shots just to try to shoot the occasional 300-400 yard shot.

I used to be one of those that zeroed 1" high at 100 with my flat shooting 22-250 because it is what I've always done. I then would then compensate by holding low on coyotes. I did this for so many years that when I get in a rush, my brain still does this at times and I have a tendency to aim low on coyotes in the 100-150 yard range. I am trying to retrain my brain as I now either use a dead-on at 100 or at the most .5" high at 100.

On top of this you add many coyote hunters sit/stand elevated. The greater the degree of elevation also aids in shooting high. Lots of coyote hunters shooting over coyotes.

Then there is the opposite effect. Many hunters under-estimate their yardages. Especially with the Super Yoter at 3x base mag and PIP. They swear the coyote was 150 when in reality it was 300 and they shoot low. When you can see the coyote so clearly and at times at such great distances, they simply aren't patient enough.

Zeroing: I am a huge advocate in aim small, miss small. I don't use any objects that bloom. I also shoot off my tripod. I have seen too many guns (yes free floated ones) that shoot different off bags, sled, or a table than off tripod. Also, this should be obvious but always zero at the same distance.

The SY does allow zero incremental changes of .54", .27", 18" and .14". In general they seem to work. However, I have experienced some odd anomolies where an adjustment seemed to be more and sometimes move it a few and it doesn't seem to go. I have gone to only setting the adjustment on 1x. At .54" increments, the most a person could possibly be of is .27". The zero movements seem to work better when setting them at 1x. I use 2x zoom on my SY when testing my zero. This is the max zoom I ever shoot, so this is what I use to zero.

Varmninter 223, some of these things may apply or maybe none do. DoubleUp is a good example. He went to great lengths to make sure he had every other variable taken out of the equation and then bam, his POI shift went away. There are so many things that can impact accuracy including the changing temps. I don't mean shift due to the SY in changing temps, I am talking about gun powder, barrel harmonics, etc.

To answer your question Varminter, I do check my POI on a regular basis. Have I ever changed my values. yes, by maybe 1" here or there. However, my guns take a beating, and I shoot lots of coyotes so lots of rounds go through my guns. A good cleaning, and usually I am back to where I was. Write down your coordinates. Just as a test case, take off the Super Yoter, and mount it back to the same rail slot, and see if your zero is back to where it should be.
_________________________
Korey Kirschenmann
Night Goggles Product Specialist

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#3286950 - 12/04/21 02:42 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
204 AR Offline
PM senior

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 5876
Loc: Nebraska
I never thought about it being too far back. Here's mine, there is about 1/4" of the longer mount clamp on the other side hanging in back of the rail. Too far back?

_________________________
photobucket sucks

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#3286955 - 12/04/21 02:57 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 3161
Loc: south central Illinois
Loosened my Mount 3 clicks....from stupid tight.
Mount rail locator tang is 9 rail slots forward of rear.
I will try some small tin foil squares.
I never zero higher than .5" at 100 with an ar and my brain makes me hold high when shooting longer shots anyway. We shoot most coyotes at 175ish and of course that's where trajectory peaks due to the 2.85" over bore scope height.
I will forget about adjustments beyond 1x. However even at 1x it was makimg moves over 1" but
I will try again.
Thanks!

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#3286956 - 12/04/21 03:04 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Heymartay Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/08/15
Posts: 426
Loc: N Illinois
So a cigar or cigarette should work for use as a small aiming point. Have to go pick up some el cheapos.
_________________________
If Democrats didn’t have double standards they’d have no standards at all.

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#3286971 - 12/04/21 06:39 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: 204 AR]
Kirsch Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 3283
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: 204 AR
I never thought about it being too far back. Here's mine, there is about 1/4" of the longer mount clamp on the other side hanging in back of the rail. Too far back?

Hard to tell by the picture. I usually go by rail slots left. This is also the standard mount. I actually have never used this mount on a gun.
_________________________
Korey Kirschenmann
Night Goggles Product Specialist

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#3286972 - 12/04/21 07:14 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 3161
Loc: south central Illinois
I cut a piece of foil maybe the size of my pinky nail. Small enough I couldn't get both legs of a staple in it. I loosened the mount 3 or 4 click from where it was which was 2 clicks from as tight as it would go with the lever all the way forward or open.
I shot on 2x and it stacked both about .5" low and 1 " right.
I then gave it 1 click at 1x up and 1 left.
Shot 2 more and again it stacked both at the top edge of the foil but still .5" right.
I gave it 1 more click left at 1x and shot 2 more.
It stacked them but was now atleast 1.5" left of the foil.
My only option was to go back that click to my previous coordinate.
After that move it put one in the top right corner of the foil and one almost touching just to the right .
I also payed close attention to the inclinometer which seems like my pip box is tilted to the left when at 0.

I'm not on even .54 coordinates. However if I am on coordinates that it responded properly to I hope it will stay.
I'm on 2.03 and 2.25 and I am wondering if I would be better with both at 2.16 which is 4 clicks at 1x vs. some higher power clicks mixed in.


Edited by varminter .223 (12/04/21 07:22 PM)

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#3286974 - 12/04/21 07:54 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Dark moon 63 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/01/21
Posts: 163
Loc: Iowa
It sounds to me like someone needs to come up with a scope base that's at least twice as long and locks to the rail in 2 places.

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#3286975 - 12/04/21 08:01 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
204 AR Offline
PM senior

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 5876
Loc: Nebraska
Yeah thats frustrating. I moved mine forward one notch and shot a few shots, it's good at 100 at base mag and 2x so I'll check it again after the next hunt.
_________________________
photobucket sucks

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#3287045 - 12/05/21 12:25 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: Dark moon 63]
Kirsch Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 3283
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Dark moon 63
It sounds to me like someone needs to come up with a scope base that's at least twice as long and locks to the rail in 2 places.
There is a reason these are compact scopes. Most people don't want to add a really big and long base to such a light and compact scope. Their mounts and the LaRue work very well for almost everyone. In the cases where a user can't get it far enough back, an extended rail or riser can fix or Bering can put on a bolt action mount. They have 3 different lengths to push back the scope as much as 3". I personally am glad they don't have a bulky mount.

Varminter, hopefully you got it working for you. If not before sending it in, I know you have said this gun is a tack-driver for you. However, I would recommend mounting your day scope and shooting it in the exact same manner under different days/temps etc just to make sure something else isn't causing a shift. Lots of powders react differently to temp.
_________________________
Korey Kirschenmann
Night Goggles Product Specialist

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#3287108 - 12/05/21 09:31 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 3161
Loc: south central Illinois
Shot one round this evening at a handwarmer folded in half. I tried to shrink the heat signature by stapling a strip of wet cardboard to each side of the handwarmer and the top. I had an area maybe a little bigger than a quarter exposed. The round hit dead center and at the top edge of the exposed area of the hand warmer. That is exactly where I was yesterday afternoon after loosening the mount a bit and rezeroing with 1x adjustments. I've also done all the shooting at 2x mag using the pip. It's been around 50 degrees when I shot the last 2 times. It's supposed to be 19 degrees Wednesday. I will shoot it then and probably tomorrow as well.


Edited by varminter .223 (12/06/21 06:42 AM)

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#3287112 - 12/05/21 10:19 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Kirsch Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 3283
Loc: USA
Sounds like it might be performing better. Keep us informed.
_________________________
Korey Kirschenmann
Night Goggles Product Specialist

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#3287214 - 12/06/21 09:26 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 3161
Loc: south central Illinois
Poi was a tad high and 3ish inches left this morning. Groups were lousy as well but wind was howling right to left. I had to test it though. It was pretty calm this evening when I shot 2 more and they were still 1.5 left and now a little low but touching. After I went back inside I decided to check my coordinates and they were not at 2.03 and 2.25 where they previously were shooting great. Somehow they both moved up numerically 1 click. The horizontal moved to the 2.52 number that jumps poi left about 1.5". I decided to go back to 0 and move my coordinates to 2.16 and 2.16 which is four clicks at 1x. However I can't get elevation back to zero. It goes from .09 to -.04 and I've tried 2,3,&4x but it won't go back to zero. I did a factory reset and it still holds the coordinates. I went to G2 profile and have it on 2.16 and 2.16 but that doesn't fix my G1 profile.


Edited by varminter .223 (12/07/21 07:51 AM)

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#3287224 - 12/06/21 11:30 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 3161
Loc: south central Illinois
So I went into my vertical coordinates and went up until the reticle jumped to the very bottom of the screen and I kept going up and it came back to true 0.
Set it at 2.16 and 2.16. shot 2 1.5" low and 1.5" left.
Moved 2 clicks at 1x up and right to 1.08 and 1.08. I shot 2 more that are now inline with handwarmer left and right but but probably 4" high.
I come 1 click down to 1.62 and it's still 3" high. Groups were not good. I notice when the scope tracks properly my bullets almost touch and when it does not my groups are 1.5" ish. My Trail 2 should be back Thursday or Friday. I'm gonna call Bering and get this thing sent in. It is not right.


Edited by varminter .223 (12/06/21 11:35 PM)

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