Super yoter issues

varminter .223

Active member
Reticle will not adjust in any smaller increments that around 1.25" at 100 yards despite adjusting at 4x. Coordinates numerically adjust as they should but poi moves from one side of a small handwarmer folded in half to the other in one click at 4x.
My partners was .75" high and maybe a quarter right when we zeroed it in the cold the other night and after my issues I had him shoot it and it was just off the hand warmer low right. His is tracking like mine as well.
I'm very disappointed. Bering told me to tighten the LaRue mount until it was very hard to cam over. The rifles shoot great groups but won't track when zeroing and his for sure shifted. I'd say they will be going back to Bering.
My 2nd Trail xp50 2 lrf will be here Tuesday. The 1st one I received as a replacement for my first version was junk. It had a horrible image, dead pixel, lrf wouldn't work consistently and it had a poi shift. They deamed it irreparable. I'm not thrilled to say the least.
I think between my partner and I we have had 8 or 9 units and not a one has been right.
I gotta ask how often do you guys check your poi or do you zero and worry about other things lol.
Scratch that 9 or 10 units, I forgot about the xd38a it was solid.
 
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Interesting observations. So you're saying you've only had one thermal scope that's worked right at all?

I'm very new to this so keep that in mind. I've been messing around with my new to me super hogster and finding that the target makes a big difference and I think during the day position of the sun and how it warms the target matters.

As an example today I set up 2 hot water bottles at about 160 yds. One had a label all the way around it and I laid it on its side with the bottom towards me. It appeared as the actual size it was and I center punched this one. The other was a clear peanut butter jar with no label, same distance and also with bottom pointed at me. It appeared in the scope to be about twice as wide as it actually was but I centered the dot on the image and missed 3 times to the left, which is the side the sun was shining on. When I held on the right edge of the image I hit it.

Moral of the story is that the target itself and position of the sun matters a lot it seems.
 
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V3, I can only attest to what happened to me. It may not have anything to do with your issues. Kirsch gave me a lot of help and instructions, and they were very useful, but did not cure my problem. I would sight the scope in, and it would be off the next time I shot it which was about every day. I cleaned the barrel to make sure it wasn't the rifle. I checked the tightness of the LaRue mount several different ways. All of it was pretty much useless as far as correcting the problem.

Right when I was ready to send the SY back, I decided to clean the barrel again just to be sure. Now this barrel has never coppered at all, and it showed no signs of copper on either cleaning. As most AR's that are suppressed it gets nasty even with an adjustable gas block. Anyway this time, I focused on the chamber and carbon. when I put it back into operation it tracked perfectly, shot to the same POI over and over again and it didn't make any difference whether I was on native mag, or zoomed, or using the PIP. It has been over a month now and it has held dead nuts zero with absolutely no corrections needed. I have made shots this week at 218 and 227 yds. with no issues.

Just my experience. I can't say it will make any difference for you.
 
204 AR. I shot at both tin foil and hand warmers of varying sizes to test different theories and it doesn't seem to matter.

DU that seems wild that cleaning fixed your issues but I guess anything is possible. I've never experienced any shift like this with day optics though.
Still doesn't explain big poi movements with 4x adjustments.

The other thing is we have of these scopes that are doing the same thing. I assume out of same batch.
 
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Well I got the mount 8 clicks tighter and backed it of 2 and got it cammed over. Not sure how easy it will come back off though.

Prior to tightening the mount I shot 2 rounds and they were basically 1 inch low and left of my last 4 shots this morning. I then tightened the mount and shot 2 more. They were most touching maybe
.5" right of the ones shot prior to making the mount adjustment. I will test it more tomorrow.
 
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Great. I’ve had mine for a couple months or so but haven’t sighted it in yet cause I don’t start dog hunting till Jan 1. After everything I went through with the trails, I’m gonna find a new hobby if this yoter doesn’t hold zero. Please keep us posted on how it performs

DU I know you know more about guns and shooting than I do but I have never had poi shift or that kind of inconsistency with day scope because the gun needed a little cleaning. I’ve had groups open up but not move all together to that extreme. I’m not doubting what you’re saying at all, I’m just thinking it was probably that scope and not your gun. Especially with varminter having very similar issues. Hope I’m wrong (and very well could be) for all our sakes.
 
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I was 1-6 tonight with my Hogster 35 and the hit wasn’t good. Back to the range tomorrow. Coyotes acted like I wasn’t close.
 
I know this sounds crazy but try sighting in using a incense stick. It gives you a really really small aim point and gives of enough heat to be seen really well.

I have had similar experiences as you when using handwarmers. Too big and it causes the heat signature to balloon too much.
 
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I'm just telling you my experience with this scope. Plus, I'm a stickler for accuracy. I use HVAC tape cut in 4 equal ribbons to make the crosshairs. My POI shifts were not monumental, but I don't like to hit on one side of the crosshairs one day and the other side the next day, or high one day and low the next. This rifle is pretty consistently a .5 to .75 shooter and sometimes better. The only other thing I did besides the second cleaning (which was thorough) was to back off a little on how tight I was trying to get the LaRue mount. I don't know that forcing it closed would or could have any effect on accuracy, but I just went to moderate pressure to make it cam over and lock.

Anyway I wish I could be more help to you guys. Kirsch can verify that I told him exactly the same thing when he was trying to help me with this problem in the first couple of weeks of having the scope. I love the SY and the Phenom. They both have such wonderfully clear and sharp images.
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223Well I got the mount 8 clicks tighter and backed it of 2 and got it cammed over. Not sure how easy it will come back off though.

Prior to tightening the mount I shot 2 rounds and they were basically 1 inch low and left of my last 4 shots this morning. I then tightened the mount and shot 2 more. They were most touching maybe
.5" right of the ones shot prior to making the mount adjustment. I will test it more tomorrow.


I will be interested in if that makes a difference. I thought I had mine plenty tight but this is my first experience with a qd mount so I'm not sure how tight they should be, but you have me wondering now. I thought I had mine zeroed well but I get weird fliers that this rifle never used to throw, but usually just at the targets that appear larger than they are.

I shot it a lot today, and was satisfied but tonight made 2 quick sets and missed one and made a bad shot on another that I got, in fact my first called and killed thermal coyote. When I got home I shot it and I was a little higher than I thought I should be so brought it down 2 clicks and it's right on at 100. Now I wonder if the mounts moving dang it lol.
 
So many variables, thermals can be beyond frustrating. Hope these get ironed out. Kitsch will be helpful I'm sure.

I've got a new Hogster sitting on my bench my friend just got. He wants me to mount and zero it for him. I'll be watching it closely.
 
I will try to offer some suggestions. However, I just pulled an all nighter hunting and knocked down 17 coyotes with the SY. It’s too hard to type on my phone. I’ve got a couple hour drive to get home and I need to get a couple hours of sleep and then I’ll make some suggestions.
 
Shot two rounds this morning. It has now shifted 1.25" to 1.5" under the handwarmer.
To sum it up it started high right in handwarmer yesterday morning, low left on edge to just outside handwarmer yesterday evening and now slight right and low by close to 1.5". Two shot groups are always tight and sub moa just like with good day optics. This thing is starting to make pulsar stuff look good.

Over all test to test group center to center is 1.75" horizontal spread and 2.5" vertical spread. That means if I zero to never be lower than dead on at 100 I could potentially be as high as 4" or more at 150 and 175 and have about a 315 yards zero or I could be 6 inches low at 300 and dead on at 100....what a mess.
Tightening mount to holy crap thats tight level had no affect as far as I can tell at this point.
 
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Originally Posted By: varminter .223Shot two rounds this morning. It has now shifted 1.25" to 1.5" under the handwarmer.
To sum it up it started high right in handwarmer yesterday morning, low left on edge to just outside handwarmer yesterday evening and now slight right and low by close to 1.5". Two shot groups are always tight and sub moa just like with good day optics. This thing is starting to make pulsar stuff look good.

Over all test to test group center to center is 1.75" horizontal spread and 2.5" vertical spread. That means if I zero to never be lower than dead on at 100 I could potentially be as high as 4" or more at 150 and 175 and have about a 315 yards zero or I could be 6 inches low at 300 and dead on at 100....what a mess.
Tightening mount to holy crap thats tight level had no affect as far as I can tell at this point.

I hate to see this... I know it's got to be frustrating as all get out.

I'm in the market for a second thermal and was looing hard at the SY.

EuroOptics had the Trijicon Hunter MK III's on sale a couple months ago for $6K and I had my agency purchase two units for our SWAT team (I'm the team Commander) and was going to snatch one up but they are now OOS. I missed out. My Hunter MK III has been absolutely perfect sine I got it.

Was very interested in giving Pulsar a second look with the Trail 2, but not if issues are present.
 
V3, one of the things I learned with the Pulsar Apex was to always sight in after the sun went down or in the dark. That scope never moved more than one click in the 3 years I shot it, but if I shot it with the sun up high in the sky it would shoot 3 inches high every time. At first I would adjust it so that it would be dead on at 100 and then when I would check it right before hunting it would be 3 inches low, and I would have to go back to my original settings. So I just quit messing with it during bright daylight hours and if I needed to verify my zero, I would wait until the sun fell below the horizon.

Although the SY didn't appear to have that consistent change when I was initially trying to zero it, I just decided it was best to zero under the low light conditions I hunt in. Anyway, mine is working great now as I said previously, and I hope you can get yours sorted out. If not, you can always send it in and have them check it.
 
Well, here goes a couple of thoughts and ideas. Some of these may apply or none of them may apply.

POI Issues:
The majority of POI issues I have encountered with the Hogsters, Super Hogsters, and Super Yoters is due to the thermal being mounted too far back. On a Hogster or Super Hogster with their Tactical QD mount I would recommend at least 3 slots in and that is even stretching it. With their compact design, people tend to scoot them way back (even on ARs). I just talked to my fur buyer who's SH is not holding zero. When I asked him what rail slot, he had it on the very last one. It is barely hanging on the gun. There isn't enough rail to hold consistent POI. Tiny little shifts cause a lot of movement downrange.

Now on to the SY. The LaRue mount is very nice on the SY. However, it has a brand new design that doesn't feature a standard rail post. Good or bad, this means it has to be even further in. I have mine 6 rail slots in. I believe in my review and since I have mentioned make sure the entire length of the rail is supported. This is one of many reasons why I have a riser extension on both my AR and my bolt.

I do have one gun that seems at times to wander slightly. I believe it is due to the rail. It is never very far off. What I found is on this gun, if I simply re-seat the QD mount before shooting, my zero is back. I can't explain it but I have mentioned it to others and a few people have found this to be true. This is showing something on the rail is again keeping the mount from being able to stay in the exact position. The LaRue is so good at keeping zero, on this gun I simply open, seat it, and close, and my zero is perfect again. I really can't blame the mount as it happened on my SH and the SY, so it must be an out of spec rail or something.

Other things already mentioned is the mount being too tight or too loose. It is amazing how many people I talk to that say their POI is changing and when I ask if they adjusted their tension to their rail, they didn't realize they could. I realize this is not the case here, but just stating in general.

Also, if a person makes cam tension adjustments, the POI most likely will shift. It grabs and holds to the rail differently. If moving it from gun to gun, I would write down how many adjustments clicks left or right you do from gun to gun. It won't be massively different, but every minor change on a QD mount has an impact. In a perfect world, find a cam adjustment that works well on all your guns and leave it. I am starting to believe that over-tightening is just as bad as under-tightening.

Missing Coyotes: I believe there are multiple reasons this can and does happen even if the POI isn't the issue with a thermal scope.

One of the biggest reason is "height above bore". Many people use a 1 or 2" above center zero at 100. They say things like I've been doing this with glass scopes for years. Put a 3" above bore setting into a ballistics calculator vs 1.5" and you will see quickly it puts the flight of the bullet too high through the majority of the main kill distances for coyotes. There is no reason to set yourself that high for the majority of your shots just to try to shoot the occasional 300-400 yard shot.

I used to be one of those that zeroed 1" high at 100 with my flat shooting 22-250 because it is what I've always done. I then would then compensate by holding low on coyotes. I did this for so many years that when I get in a rush, my brain still does this at times and I have a tendency to aim low on coyotes in the 100-150 yard range. I am trying to retrain my brain as I now either use a dead-on at 100 or at the most .5" high at 100.

On top of this you add many coyote hunters sit/stand elevated. The greater the degree of elevation also aids in shooting high. Lots of coyote hunters shooting over coyotes.

Then there is the opposite effect. Many hunters under-estimate their yardages. Especially with the Super Yoter at 3x base mag and PIP. They swear the coyote was 150 when in reality it was 300 and they shoot low. When you can see the coyote so clearly and at times at such great distances, they simply aren't patient enough.

Zeroing: I am a huge advocate in aim small, miss small. I don't use any objects that bloom. I also shoot off my tripod. I have seen too many guns (yes free floated ones) that shoot different off bags, sled, or a table than off tripod. Also, this should be obvious but always zero at the same distance.

The SY does allow zero incremental changes of .54", .27", 18" and .14". In general they seem to work. However, I have experienced some odd anomolies where an adjustment seemed to be more and sometimes move it a few and it doesn't seem to go. I have gone to only setting the adjustment on 1x. At .54" increments, the most a person could possibly be of is .27". The zero movements seem to work better when setting them at 1x. I use 2x zoom on my SY when testing my zero. This is the max zoom I ever shoot, so this is what I use to zero.

Varmninter 223, some of these things may apply or maybe none do. DoubleUp is a good example. He went to great lengths to make sure he had every other variable taken out of the equation and then bam, his POI shift went away. There are so many things that can impact accuracy including the changing temps. I don't mean shift due to the SY in changing temps, I am talking about gun powder, barrel harmonics, etc.

To answer your question Varminter, I do check my POI on a regular basis. Have I ever changed my values. yes, by maybe 1" here or there. However, my guns take a beating, and I shoot lots of coyotes so lots of rounds go through my guns. A good cleaning, and usually I am back to where I was. Write down your coordinates. Just as a test case, take off the Super Yoter, and mount it back to the same rail slot, and see if your zero is back to where it should be.
 
I never thought about it being too far back. Here's mine, there is about 1/4" of the longer mount clamp on the other side hanging in back of the rail. Too far back?

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Loosened my Mount 3 clicks....from stupid tight.
Mount rail locator tang is 9 rail slots forward of rear.
I will try some small tin foil squares.
I never zero higher than .5" at 100 with an ar and my brain makes me hold high when shooting longer shots anyway. We shoot most coyotes at 175ish and of course that's where trajectory peaks due to the 2.85" over bore scope height.
I will forget about adjustments beyond 1x. However even at 1x it was makimg moves over 1" but
I will try again.
Thanks!
 
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