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#3293974 - 02/11/22 12:13 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Kino M Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1093
Loc: Southern Indiana
Thanks for the follow-up, IMO not sure how a company could be more receptive to taking care of its customers, kudos to Boris and Bering.
_________________________
Been there, done that many times and have the DD214 to prove it....

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#3293981 - 02/11/22 02:49 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Toro Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/06/19
Posts: 253
Loc: East
Kind of disheartening to hear that the scope wonít hold zero by design but I am very glad to hear that they are gonna stand behind their warranty and take care of your problem. As long as everything goes smooth will the refund, I would call that good customer service and would continue to do business with them again.

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#3293988 - 02/11/22 03:44 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: Toro]
Kirsch Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 3283
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Toro
Kind of disheartening to hear that the scope wonít hold zero by design.
I have to interject a bit. I am not trying to take this thread back down the rabbit hole that has been going for over 10 pages. I totally acknowledge V223 has done his part in testing and from everything I have seen has an issue. However, this post saying the Super Yoter inherently won't hold zero "by design" isn't any truer than saying all thermal scopes inherently won't hold zero by design. Per what V223 described of the conversation, Bering appears to be talking about the science behind thermal engineering and the value of a pixel. As I wasn't on the call, it is an assumption. This information is not unique to Bering thermals as it applies to all thermals.

V223's unit, yes, but not "by design" on all Super Yoters or Bering thermals.

Originally Posted By: Toro
I donít know anything about their operation but Iím getting the feeling that they donít have anyone stateside that would be able to fix the issue.
I have to apologize to V223 as I responded to this post and said V223 had said this in an earlier post. After reading this thread again, I see it was not V223. To reiterate, Bering Optics service is done in TX or CA depending on the model and what service is needed.
_________________________
Korey Kirschenmann
Night Goggles Product Specialist

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#3293991 - 02/11/22 04:58 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Toro Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/06/19
Posts: 253
Loc: East
I will be the first to admit. I know basically nothing about the science of thermal scopes. And I donít mean this in a argumentative way but there are thermal scopes that hold zero. So I canít see how this could apply to all thermal scopes. If it did then why do some hold zero and others canít. As a lay person, I should logically think thatís itís the design of this particular scope. That is why I used the those terms. That just makes sense to me.

The bottom line in my opinion is that they told him inch to an inch and half shift could be expected. I credit them for that. I wish I knew that before I bought one but I give them credit for not acting like the concerned consumer is wrong and feeding him a bunch of excuses when they know itís to be expected from the product. Even though it took months to get that information. They are offering him a refund and thatís great. I mean that sincerely. Most companies probably wouldnít.

As for my other comment about them not having anyone stateside that really knows whatís going on. I didnít say they didnít. I said I have a feeling they donít and this is because it took them this long to just tell him the scope poi moves. The guy went months without an answer when based on thermal scope science itís common.

And apparently I might be right. They canít fix the issue. Only people that can fix the issue are ones who DESIGNED or developed it. I donít know their country of origin ( and really donít care) but it is apparent that they donít work at bering otherwise they would fix it.

For that kind of money there should not be a poi shift. I am not satisfied with it. Itís good enough to get me through the season but I will be sending mine back in the spring. Hopefully they find a way to fix it but it doesnít sound like that is gonna happen.

I have a 25 hogster and itís been rock solid. Iím not knocking Bering but I am saying that I would not have purchased this scope had I known there was an expected or manufacturer acceptable poi shift.

I know some of you understand the technology. I donít. If you would take the time to explain it me I would listen.

Nothing I wrote was meant to be nasty or in angry way. All Iím say is the scope can be expected to shift poi (which is not acceptable in my opinion) and no one at bering can fix it. I would still buy another bering product but next time I will wait until the jury comes back.

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#3293994 - 02/11/22 05:54 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Kino M Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1093
Loc: Southern Indiana
Great post Toro and I agree with you 100%. For $4700 MAP price, the optic shouldn't shift, period IMO. If they can produce a scope that has proven to not shift at a lower price than they should be able to on the Yoter.

If I'm understanding this correctly, Boris is saying that 1"-1 1/2" shift is acceptable/expected in some units and IMO thats unacceptable. Had I known this I wouldn't have gambled 4k plus on getting one that doesn't shift that much!

Obviously I wasn't part of the phone conversation either but if what Boris told V223 about expected POI shift is up to 1 1/2" then he is correct that it is inherently unreliable by design. If thats how its designed and those are the expectations/specs than I gotta disagree with you on this Kirsch, holding zero of a scope should be #1, and thats for ALL produced, not some.

All that said I feel I got a good one. I did have a little shift but I don't exactly know why. Mine doesn't track exactly what the values should be but I have no issues getting it zeroed. I've killed many many many coyotes with it this year and its always been "minute of coyote" when I needed it and I've shot some groups with it that would rival many guys shooting daytime scopes.
_________________________
Been there, done that many times and have the DD214 to prove it....

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#3293998 - 02/11/22 07:21 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 3161
Loc: south central Illinois
Just to be clear I was indeed told by Boris that an inch or an inch and a half is probably within a reasonable tolerance of shift to expect due to the value of a pixel etc. I'm paraphrasing that statement but in a nutshell that is precisely what he was saying. I was also shocked when he said that bit of shift shouldn't matter. He said something along the lines of it doesn't matter if you shoot him in the left eye or the right etc.....I proceeded to tell him that is entirely too much shift for coyote hunting at longer distances because it doubles and triples beyond that not to mention a change in trajectory. His comments lead me to believe he is not a precision shooter and his products are based around shooting at larger hog sized targets at relatively close range.

The whole reason I purchased this scope was because the info I had been reading about Bering seem to indicate that accuracy was one of their strong points. From my experience this is not the case and had I known I would have never purchased the unit.

I actually was starting to believe that the lower cost (sub 8k) thermals were all going to exhibit these shifts for whatever reason. After seeing how well my Trail 2 will hold zero I no longer believe that to be the case.


Edited by varminter .223 (02/11/22 07:27 PM)

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#3294002 - 02/11/22 07:58 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: Toro]
G Anderson Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 601
Loc: Clinton, Indiana
Originally Posted By: Toro
I will be the first to admit. I know basically nothing about the science of thermal scopes. And I donít mean this in a argumentative way but there are thermal scopes that hold zero. So I canít see how this could apply to all thermal scopes. If it did then why do some hold zero and others canít. As a lay person, I should logically think thatís itís the design of this particular scope. That is why I used the those terms. That just makes sense to me.

The bottom line in my opinion is that they told him inch to an inch and half shift could be expected. I credit them for that. I wish I knew that before I bought one but I give them credit for not acting like the concerned consumer is wrong and feeding him a bunch of excuses when they know itís to be expected from the product. Even though it took months to get that information. They are offering him a refund and thatís great. I mean that sincerely. Most companies probably wouldnít.

As for my other comment about them not having anyone stateside that really knows whatís going on. I didnít say they didnít. I said I have a feeling they donít and this is because it took them this long to just tell him the scope poi moves. The guy went months without an answer when based on thermal scope science itís common.

And apparently I might be right. They canít fix the issue. Only people that can fix the issue are ones who DESIGNED or developed it. I donít know their country of origin ( and really donít care) but it is apparent that they donít work at bering otherwise they would fix it.

For that kind of money there should not be a poi shift. I am not satisfied with it. Itís good enough to get me through the season but I will be sending mine back in the spring. Hopefully they find a way to fix it but it doesnít sound like that is gonna happen.

I have a 25 hogster and itís been rock solid. Iím not knocking Bering but I am saying that I would not have purchased this scope had I known there was an expected or manufacturer acceptable poi shift.

I know some of you understand the technology. I donít. If you would take the time to explain it me I would listen.

Nothing I wrote was meant to be nasty or in angry way. All Iím say is the scope can be expected to shift poi (which is not acceptable in my opinion) and no one at bering can fix it. I would still buy another bering product but next time I will wait until the jury comes back.


Absolutely agree 100% with your assessment.

The "acceptable" POI shift parameters are not something that most people would be happy with...especially with this NOT being disclosed up front by the manufacturer...and you should not have to wait until the sun, the moon and the stars all align just to get it sighted in properly and for it to maintain POI.

One has to wonder with the sudden explosion of the civilian thermal industry whether it was more important to just get units out to the dealers/customers and bypass QC checks or whether they got a bad batch of Chinese components. Regardless, it is a shame that it has come to this.

I will also put a disclaimer out there that none of what I have said is directed at anyone here and not to downgrade any manufacturer over another.

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#3294015 - 02/11/22 11:33 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
WestTX 25/06 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/09/20
Posts: 32
Loc: TX
Iíll chime in here. Iíve posted about my Yoter not returning to zero when remounted and not tracking correctly while zeroing in the past (Adventures in Zeroing the SY thread).. I started the return process this week and the Tech Iím talking to is very friendly and seems to want to help. However, the recommendations Iím getting so far are all about trying different tightness setting on the qd mount. Iím basically ignorant when it comes to thermal technology, so Iím welcome to hearing anything telling me Iím wrong here, but what in the world could the mount have to do with the poi moving inconsistently when making zeroing adjustments?

I understand the concept of if the scope is canted, up/down adjustments will also move left or right and vise versa, but what Iím seeing (documented and shown to them) is the scope moving a very inconsistent distance compared to the adjustment made. I would also understand if the mount was letting the scope move it might cause this issue, but I shot groups on my test target and the groups were tight until I changed coordinates every time.

Again, maybe Iím missing something and would welcome a rebuke if Iím wrong, but I would think that folks that built scopes for a living would understand the faulty logic in what they are telling me.

When I made this purchase, I bought into the narrative that Bering put accuracy at a premium in everything they did. My experience and what Iím reading from Varminter (left eye vs right eye comment) makes me wonder if they really understand what coyote hunters want out of a scope.

Just so it doesnít seem like Iím only railing against Bering, Iíll say that I think this is a widespread issue in thermal. I recently re-watched a YouTube review of the Super Yoter by a dealer rep I respect. Iím paraphrasing the comment made , but it was basically this ďthe LaRue qd mount is great, I was able to remount without checking zero and kill a coyote at 100 yards no problemĒ. Itís stuff like this that makes me realize a lot of people that are very plugged into the thermal industry still really have no idea what coyote hunters in open country want or need. I donít blame this guy, because he lives in an area where heís not shooting much past 100 yards. However, precision that hits a coyote broadsides at 100 yards is basically a paper plate sized group. Those of us that have the ability to shoot 200-400 yards almost every night are living in an entirely different world and have different standards than what is being produced for us. I believe if your are going to put the name ďYoterĒ on your scope, you should have an understanding of these needs and produce an optic that meets our standards.

If you look into the precision rifle daytime optic world, you will see review after review detailing scopes tracking accuracy and repeatability. Thermal scope reviews are almost always centered around image quality, battery life, features, etcÖ. Iím convinced this is because the thermal industry is focused on killing hogs inside 100 yards, not coyotes at 250. If the day ever comes that a dealer will put the time and effort into rigorously testing and reviewing thermal scopes from an accuracy standpoint, they will have my business forever.



Edited by WestTX 25/06 (02/11/22 11:59 PM)

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#3294022 - 02/12/22 08:17 AM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Dark moon 63 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/01/21
Posts: 163
Loc: Iowa
It says something about Bering that your getting a full refund. Iím on the fence about which thermal to get but wanted an iray core of some kind. A few companies have gone to the single mount base. Thats asking a lot to have a scope mounted on a center fire rifle getting banged around at night. My only rail concern is to have enough room to mount a brass catcher adapter. Not saying the mount is the problem but it canít be a concern to me, then itís up to the electronics.

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#3294023 - 02/12/22 08:43 AM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 3161
Loc: south central Illinois
Imo the LaRue mount is not the issues. My rifles don't get banged around night or day either.

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#3294037 - 02/12/22 01:18 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: Dark moon 63]
Kino M Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1093
Loc: Southern Indiana
Originally Posted By: Dark moon 63
It says something about Bering that your getting a full refund. Iím on the fence about which thermal to get but wanted an iray core of some kind. A few companies have gone to the single mount base. Thats asking a lot to have a scope mounted on a center fire rifle getting banged around at night. My only rail concern is to have enough room to mount a brass catcher adapter. Not saying the mount is the problem but it canít be a concern to me, then itís up to the electronics.



Dark Moon your post brings up a great point about "which thermal to get" and I feel like here on PM there is ALL KINDS of room for a dealer that sells other brands and prostaff to get in on these threads and discussion. I really don't understand why Nightgoggles/Kirsch is the only ones here.

If you step back and take a look, the night calling forum here is about 99% of Kirsch pimping Bering mostly and once in awhile Pulsar products because thats the vast majority of thermal optics Nightgoggles sell. Kirsch is paid by Nightgoggles so i totally understand he is merely helping sell product his company sells. It seems somewhat like a monopoly here sometimes. Thats NOT intended as a dig as IMO Kirsch is an honest and knowledgeable guy about thermal optics and I understand they are site sponsors running a business trying to make money.

The big point I'm trying to make is we don't have sponsers/salesman/prostaff here showcasing, testing and talking about the many many other brands that are available to the consumer. There are LOTS of other options that doesn't get much press here and as a serious hunter I would love to know and hear more about other options.

Next year I'm considering an LRF unit and I definitely want to hear about all the options out there. I've run several Bering products and for the money I feel that they offer a great product BUT thermal technology is rapidly evolving and there are lots of brands that people should also take a look at.
_________________________
Been there, done that many times and have the DD214 to prove it....

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#3294040 - 02/12/22 02:55 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Heymartay Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 02/08/15
Posts: 426
Loc: N Illinois
Very true, Kirsch has made Bering a lot of money and he has worked and froze his butt off to showcase their products. Just think what another manufacturer could make if they werenít so cheap that they donít have a field guy working for them. Fox pro is popular cause they advertise the heck out of their stuff and same with Lucky Duck. I think Jeff Nimnich does the best explanation on the fly as heís calling, besides that heís a helluva shot.
_________________________
If Democrats didnít have double standards theyíd have no standards at all.

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#3294045 - 02/12/22 03:48 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: Kino M]
Kirsch Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 3283
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kino M
If you step back and take a look, the night calling forum here is about 99% of Kirsch pimping Bering mostly and once in awhile Pulsar products because thats the vast majority of thermal optics Nightgoggles sell.
Kino, really 99% of all the posts on the Night Forum are me "pimping" Bering stuff?

I started by sharing coyote hunting videos same as you do, DoubleUP, V223, 6mm and many others. Based on those videos, and the way I represented myself on Predator Masters, Night Goggles approached me with a potential prostaff position. Why not help out a reputable company that helps Predator Masters, it seemed like a Win-Win. What I post really hasn't changed.

My title with Night Goggles changed this year, but what I do has not. I have always held to the fact my role would not be a commissions role. I am sure financially I would have been way ahead by taking a commission. This is another reason I wanted to change my role to Product Specialist because Prostaff people often get associated with a term like "pimping." I test any thermal that Night Goggles or any thermal company will send me. I kill coyotes and share videos, and I do product reviews. I have attempted to help a lot of people on this forum, and other forums when many didn't even buy a thermal from Night Goggles.

Bering Optics happens to be a company that sees the value in my testing as I have used many different thermals and can provide them a lot of feedback. It also helps out Night Goggles as I get a chance to gain experience using a lot of their different thermals. Does Night Goggles sell a lot of Bering products because I test a lot of them, write reviews, and create coyote videos, sure it does. Just as when I was shooting a Flir PTS536, Night Goggles sold a lot of those as people saw the product in action. Besides what thermals I test, the majority of the videos I produce are from the thermals I purchase myself. My hard-earned dollars have purchased many Bering products because I do feel they provide a tremendous value. I welcome the chance to test any thermal manufacturer's products. I will give them a fair chance, run the same tests I do with Bering thermals, and provide an update to thermal company, Night Goggles, and to the PM community. If their products review well, I may end up buying some of those also.

One of the first things I heard is when Korey joined Night Goggles, he was now going to push the most expensive brand they carry. Why, because this is usually what happens with many Prostaff type positions. I have tried to stay consistent in my testing and the products I use. Part of virtually everything I do for Night Goggles is what type of solutions and knowledge can I provide to help the coyote hunting community.

Somewhere along the line, me trying to provide assistance has turned into "pimping" and according to some (not Kino's remarks) making excuses for Bering Optics. What I provide aren't excuses but experience after assisting I would have to say thousands of thermal users with questions on thermal technologies. Do I take offense to the word "pimping", I do but it is a free country and Kino can say what he wants. It seems by following it up by saying I am honest and knowledgeable guy makes up for the rest. I sincerely hope what I provide to this community is considered a lot more than pimping. This is not a "Kirsch needs to prop himself up post because he feels sorry for himself." It is unfortunate the same community I spend a lot of time trying to support, isn't always supportive back but that's life.

Night Goggles and I continue to support the PM community. As for why other companies do not, I can't speak to that. Now, I need to go pull some videos from my thermal from last night and get back to editing video footage.
_________________________
Korey Kirschenmann
Night Goggles Product Specialist

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#3294047 - 02/12/22 04:00 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: Kirsch]
old cat Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 1190
Loc: wv
Korey just keep doing what you are doing. There will always be naysayers. I enjoy what you do, as do many others. Whatever product you do it with & talk about the results will be the same. I can only speak for my self, I buy what I like not what someone else likes. I just bought a product that had great reviews. Company had sold over 100 with no complaints. Guess what I was not satisfied with mine, it did not perform like I wanted. Just keep after them & keep me posted here on predator masters. Thanks Joey


Edited by old cat (02/12/22 05:24 PM)

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#3294056 - 02/12/22 04:45 PM Re: Super yoter issues [Re: varminter .223]
Kino M Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1093
Loc: Southern Indiana
Kirsch I'm not saying nor did I say 99% of all post are you pimping for Bering or Nightgoggles, I'm saying 99% of sponsers/sales/prostaff/companies promoting on the night hunting forum is you.

I can't think of one single other company or paid guy that promotes products here and I wish they would. Competition drives products and that is beneficial to the end user. If you have a public forum and only one company is represented you pretty much have a monopoly.

Maybe its the word pimping that doesn't set well with you but for complete clarification its not meant as a derogatory verb, its just another word thats used for selling or promoting something in the year 2022. I'm absolutely sure I mentioned my post wasnt meant as a dig.

Contrary to what you may think, even though I'll never be a cheerleader for you, I do appreciate your presence and input here at the PM community. I actually complemented you in my last post but you missed that and appears you took offense. I can fully appreciate the fact that you actually use the products you are SELLING which brings me to another point.....

You continuously say you don't get a commission of sales BUT you do get PAID by Nightgoggles, period. IMO thats COMPLETELY misleading as if your not compensated at all for every time you promote Bering and Nightgoggles. Your not answering questions about Bering and pulsar and then referring people to Nightgoggles out of the kindness of your heart. Paycheck, commission, bonus, consulting, testing, however you want to paint it you ARE financially compensated by NG, period. You ADMITTED that in your nasty gram you sent me for not buying my Yoter from Nightgoggles. That nasty gram from you and is EXACTLY WHY I will NEVER DO BUSINESS with Nightgoggles or anyone you "represent".


This is exactly why I would love to see more vendors and different companies represented here.
_________________________
Been there, done that many times and have the DD214 to prove it....

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