Accuracy expectations

Originally Posted By: Three 44sI cringe when I read threads like this: 2K for a rifle with a 1MOA guarantee!

I have a whole pile of guns that cost closer to 1/10 that much and will shoot circles around 1MOA.

But I do not rely on factory ammo.

I do not “reload” either!

I handload!

When I was 19 and just starting out, I reloaded but it was not long, I switched to handloading and the “race” was on for accuracy.

One rifle, a 788 Rem in 22-250 stands out that really gave me a run for my money to get a flyer round sorted out of five shot groups but I finally whupped it but it cost mere $175 used. When it settled down I had a consistent .460” for five at 100 all day long but a Canjar single set trigger helped but very diligent HANDLOADING was the key! Lots of test loading with very serious case prep and powder changes, both which powder and the charge weight changes.

Three 44s

Explain your definition of "hand loading" vs "reloading "?

To me they are one in the same with the exception being maybe reloading = once fired brass?

Case prep is all based on how detailed you want to get.
 
LOL, we've all debated the "all day long" comment before as well. Not saying your not a good shot or have an accurate rifle but all day long is a comment that has been discussed many times in the past. I'm also not sure what the difference is between reloading and handloading.
 
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Originally Posted By: Three 44s Lots of test loading with very serious case prep and powder changes, both which powder and the charge weight changes.

I first started reloading in 1952 or 3, and have continued ever since. I believe Three 44s distinction between reloading/handloading is the degree of steps/details taken in the process.

At least, to me, reloading can be accomplished with a minimum number of steps (1. Deprime/resize/prime case, 2. Dump powder charge, 3. Seat bullet, and shoot).

Handloading, on the other hand can be broken down into most, if not all, of the following: 1. Sorting, weighing, uniform primer pockets & flash hole, turn & trim case neck, clean cases, hand seat primer, then, size case (to a headspace within a few thousandths after careful measurement of fired case). Extra pains are often taken to assure minimum bullet runout (pays dividends @ longer ranges).
Step 2. Weigh every powder charge (I'm not a benchrest shooter, but IMO, this step can be eliminated with a good powder measure and by finding your accuracy nodes w/choice of powder used). 3. Carefully seat (best) bullet (after determining best coal for that load/rifle).

As has been alluded to, every rifle is a study unto itself and some rifles benefit a lot more than others from the extra care in loading.

As stated, I started reloading in the 50's and continued to be quite satisfied with the product in my hunting rifles(with only one exception, out performed factory ammo in the accuracy department) available at the time). Entered the handloading stage in the early '80's when I got into competition, performing all the steps mentioned above.

Shortly after turn of century, health issues forced "retirement" from competition, but accuracy still very high on the list, so, while I have cut back on some handloading practices, reverting back toward the reloading stage except for a couple of problem-children, (such as the .308 BAR which is stubbornly hung up @ about 1.5 MOA, and that with 110 gr. Varmageddon only!)
frown.gif


On the other hand, I reload (on Dillon w/no case prep other than case lot/length), thrown powder charges w/the Dillon measure for my Bushmaster and it doesn't mind a bit.
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Guess you could label me a re-handloader currently.
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Regards,
hm
 
What kind of trigger came on that gun? Not having read all the posts in this thread other than the OP and two or three posts I would ask myself if the trigger needs to be replaced with a better trigger. Then I would ask my eye doctor to give me a good examination and then figure out if I'm left eye or right eye dominant and go from there. What type of bench rest are you using and how far are you shooting? What is the barrel twist rate and how heavy/long are the bullets you are using? A fast twist 1/7 barrel needs a heavier/long bullet on average. A slow twist barrel 1/10 needs a lighter/shorter bullet on average. And maybe have someone load the rifle for you and once in a while put in a dud bullet just to check to see if you are jumping. You won't know that until you fire the gun and it doesn't go off and you pull the gun off target with a jerk. In other words, check the shooter and see if you can make improvements in that area first.


 
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Factory Hornady superformance 50gr shot 1.7 moa at 100yds. Very disappointed because this was what I wanted to use. 50gr vmax with 36gr varget shot .31 moa and 55gr nosler varmadeggon with 35gr varget shot .51
Guess I have to break out the reloading press.
 
I very seldom if ever base accuracy off of factory ammo. A .31 group is nothing to sneeze at. Sounds like it likes your reloads/handloads.
 
My CZ527 in 17 Hornet will shoot 1/2 MOA with factory ammo if I do my part under good conditions. I have a Bushmaster Varminter that will also shoot in that range but I had the crown done by a gunsmith. Same for a vintage Remington 700 in 222. Had it bedded and crown redone. It's wicked accurate with factory ammo and better with handloads.
 
I expect my rifles to shoot sub-MOA, with my handloads. If they can't, they get sold off.

I've only had one rifle that I could not get to shoot, a Winchester in 223wssm, that my son bought back in 2005 or so. My notes show 2 shots on paper, 3 off paper, at 100yds. Best group was 2", and only with one load.

Traded it off for a Browning, also in 223wssm, and this one will shoot sub-MOA, with handloads.

To expect a run-of-the-mill factory rifle, shooting run-of-the-mill factory ammo, to shoot sub-MOA, is expecting a lot.
 
Originally Posted By: Coyotehunter_What kind of trigger came on that gun? Not having read all the posts in this thread other than the OP and two or three posts I would ask myself if the trigger needs to be replaced with a better trigger. Then I would ask my eye doctor to give me a good examination and then figure out if I'm left eye or right eye dominant and go from there. What type of bench rest are you using and how far are you shooting? What is the barrel twist rate and how heavy/long are the bullets you are using? A fast twist 1/7 barrel needs a heavier/long bullet on average. A slow twist barrel 1/10 needs a lighter/shorter bullet on average. And maybe have someone load the rifle for you and once in a while put in a dud bullet just to check to see if you are jumping. You won't know that until you fire the gun and it doesn't go off and you pull the gun off target with a jerk. In other words, check the shooter and see if you can make improvements in that area first.




All of the Christensen rifles to my knowledge ship with Trigger Tech triggers installed.
 
Originally Posted By: vmax_blaster Are you running 36gr of varget in the Sako?

I am able to look at my load development for that rifle and I started at 32 gr of Varget and worked up to a book max of 36 gr. I am using a CCI BR2 primer and 50 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. Brass is virgin Lapua. All rounds seated to 2.476 COAL using a redding bushing seater die.

I will preface this by stating it was a very hot day last memorial day when I shot these and I noted inconsistent gusts of wind periodically throughout the evening of 5 to 10mph. Range was 100 yards and temperature was up to low 90's. Barrel was allowed to cool completely between 3 shot groups (done to save components and eliminate barrel heat variation)

32 gr - 0.610"
32.5 - 0.693"
33 - 0.479"
33.5 - 0.389"
34 - 0.441"
34.5 - 0.297"
35 - 0.491"
35.5 - 0.269"
36 - 1.198"

All measurements are center to center of their respective 3 shot groups. It is worth noting that I spend a solid 8 hrs on the range doing development on many guns and was starting to feel the fatique near the end. Couple that with the heat and the wind, I cant say this is completely conclusive of the rifles ability as there were and always is a lot of variables at play. I did not have a chance to chrono these but I found 35.5 gr to be a comfortable spot and was able to shoot around a .4" group on another range trip once I was ready to confirm my zero with that load. Again, these are loaded much longer than many factory 50 gr offerings and as stated before, I have found that seating them longer improves that immensely.

 
Before I learned how to shoot, my father found me spam link where I learned how to properly handle weapons and learned about the technique of disassembling and repairing different types of weapons. Therefore, I recommend watching a few training videos and you can definitely solve the problem of your malfunction.
 
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Originally Posted By: crapshootOriginally Posted By: Three 44sI cringe when I read threads like this: 2K for a rifle with a 1MOA guarantee!

I have a whole pile of guns that cost closer to 1/10 that much and will shoot circles around 1MOA.

But I do not rely on factory ammo.

I do not “reload” either!

I handload!

When I was 19 and just starting out, I reloaded but it was not long, I switched to handloading and the “race” was on for accuracy.

One rifle, a 788 Rem in 22-250 stands out that really gave me a run for my money to get a flyer round sorted out of five shot groups but I finally whupped it but it cost mere $175 used. When it settled down I had a consistent .460” for five at 100 all day long but a Canjar single set trigger helped but very diligent HANDLOADING was the key! Lots of test loading with very serious case prep and powder changes, both which powder and the charge weight changes.

Three 44s

Explain your definition of "hand loading" vs "reloading "?

To me they are one in the same with the exception being maybe reloading = once fired brass?

Case prep is all based on how detailed you want to get.

My definition of reloading is where cartridges are loaded to a minimal standard of accuracy. Little or no load development except for function and pressures (hopefully). Sufficient accuracy is probably comparable to average factory loads.

Hand-loading is lifting of the act of reloading to a higher standard. The person engaged in hand loading takes accuracy more seriously that just having a gun function with average accuracy and strives to squeeze the best potential out of their guns.

Case prep is but one area that comes under the heading of hand loading and also includes testing different components and settings such as powder charge weights, bullet seating depth, etc.

Some new handloaders/reloaders upon discovery how to tighten groups foolishly think that they can take an average hunting rifle and turn it into a “target” gun by “upping” their game and though I have on occasion stumbled into a pretty sweet load for what one would consider a general hunting rifle, it more often ends in frustration.

A friend of mine and his father are a good example of reloaders. They for years ran their 300 Weatherby's with a midrange load with one primer and powder extracted from a load manual. It was certainly safe and their brass lasted a long time. Nothing wrong with that! But their accuracy was hohum!

The father passed away and the son was exposed to some of my handloading! He was stunned that by merely tweaking powder charges that groups could be significantly shrunk!

We delved into a lot more than that and today, he is a handloader!

Best regards

Three 44s
 
An interesting thread, that I should probably really not get into.

I just dropped $2k on a 223. It has not seen more than 30 rounds, yet. It shows promise, it is as good as what it is replacing.
The other rifle was fine by most folks standards, 10 shots@100 sub MOA on demand. It has a lot of rounds through it and what I called a flyer opened the group by a few tenths.
I am not mad or disappointed in the new rig. I had a LOT of range time with the old one, the new deserves a fair bit as well.

I am very fortunate to have as good friends, some excellent riflemen. If I have a problem child, I will give a holler to one of them to shoot a rifle for me. Out of a few times we actually found an issue that wasn’t me.
It have in turn learned a lot from these gents.

A trigger very seldom makes a bad rifle better.
Most not all stock off the rack rifles will shoot fresh, new factory ammo into 1”@100, I say most because a lot of the issues are bullets and twist related.

I like to think I load better ammo than I can buy. Handloading allows me to shoot more for sure, but I dunno how much cheaper honestly.

I have been around long enough to see what the average joe does.
He drops the majority of his funds on a rifle.
Then scrimps on base,rings and glass.
Then does the same with his ammo.

Buy a quality budget rifle. Drop the majority of your funds on glass. Eat hot dogs and Mac and cheese, buy quality ammo.

Lol, have been down both roads for one reason or another.

It has been shown over and again, you will spend a lot of time and money getting to a load as food factory ammo today.

What one person deems great, the other deems unacceptable.

Rifles and handguns are much like wrenches in a tool box. They all have a specific purpose in mind, yet can be pushed into service else where when needed.
When is it good enough?

One of the riflemen I speak of deer hunts. If you saw his paper punching rig, you would expect his deer rifle to be as slick. Nope, it is a beat to crap 30-30, that shoots maybe 2”@100 on a good day. He gets a couple every year, bang flop, it’s good enough. He loads 20 rounds of fresh ammo every year and that’s it.

So maybe we have rifles that are good enough for the task, but not a “one holer”.
 
I reload. But I anneal my brass, trim it for length, try different powders and primers and bullets as well as adjust my seating depths. Handload or reload, whatever name you prefer makes no difference. I think 99% of the people that reload/handload do it to achieve the best accuracy from their firearms. Granted, the 1% may not care if their rifle won't shoot under an inch. One inch groups will usually kill anything that needs killing anyway but most of us like the little bug hole and strive to get them or at least close to it. I also have to disagree with the trigger comment. You are going to be hard pressed to shoot tight groups with a 5 pound lawyer trigger. If a good trigger didn't matter they wouldn't sell them. A good crisp light trigger does make a difference. It doesn't have to be in the ounces but a trigger that breaks like glass and around two pounds makes a difference. If you have to concentrate on pulling a trigger, you loose concentration on your target.
 
I have a TC Venture 223/5.56 with 5r rifling that was under $500, with a $100 3x9x scope.
It's the most accurate rifle I own or ever owned, it will make my Rem 700 .17 sweat, it puts
5 shots into a nickel on most calm days. The T.C shoots better & isn't fussy, match bullets from several manufactures, different powders, primers. It's the most unfussy rifle I've ever seen. I haven't touched a screw on the TC yet, ain't going too. When you get one, you know.
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogI reload. But I anneal my brass, trim it for length, try different powders and primers and bullets as well as adjust my seating depths. Handload or reload, whatever name you prefer makes no difference. I think 99% of the people that reload/handload do it to achieve the best accuracy from their firearms. Granted, the 1% may not care if their rifle won't shoot under an inch. One inch groups will usually kill anything that needs killing anyway but most of us like the little bug hole and strive to get them or at least close to it. I also have to disagree with the trigger comment. You are going to be hard pressed to shoot tight groups with a 5 pound lawyer trigger. If a good trigger didn't matter they wouldn't sell them. A good crisp light trigger does make a difference. It doesn't have to be in the ounces but a trigger that breaks like glass and around two pounds makes a difference. If you have to concentrate on pulling a trigger, you loose concentration on your target.

By any metric, you are handloading. But it’s a free country ...............

Three 44s
 
Originally Posted By: Three 44sOriginally Posted By: pyscodogI reload. But I anneal my brass, trim it for length, try different powders and primers and bullets as well as adjust my seating depths. Handload or reload, whatever name you prefer makes no difference. I think 99% of the people that reload/handload do it to achieve the best accuracy from their firearms. Granted, the 1% may not care if their rifle won't shoot under an inch. One inch groups will usually kill anything that needs killing anyway but most of us like the little bug hole and strive to get them or at least close to it. I also have to disagree with the trigger comment. You are going to be hard pressed to shoot tight groups with a 5 pound lawyer trigger. If a good trigger didn't matter they wouldn't sell them. A good crisp light trigger does make a difference. It doesn't have to be in the ounces but a trigger that breaks like glass and around two pounds makes a difference. If you have to concentrate on pulling a trigger, you loose concentration on your target.

By any metric, you are handloading. But it’s a free country ...............

Three 44s


Tomato-tomato, either way...same results. At least for me.
 
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