06 family issues

Outlawkyotte

New member
After 40+years of reloading Ive run into an issue that previously wasnt.
I have had several 2506AI barrels in the past (absolutely love this chambering)
I have had a couple 6.506AI's and am still undecided what I think of it, starting a new one shortly.
I have had several 280AI's that I have had great luck with but as I get older I dont hunt large animals as much and really dont have as much need for that chambering anymore.In fact I was hoping the 6.506AI would fill that position.

To make my brass I usually use an old barrel to blow the shoulders out (in this case Im using an old 6.506AI barrel). Once formed with a max load of powder behind an appropriate bullet I can neck up or down to my desire. I have been using 270brass from different makers trying to find the best brass that will have a long life. The only brass I havent used is Lapua for reasons we will get into after I explain my problem.

My problem.......
Since my experience is greatest with the 2506AI and have been using it for 25+years, I would like to use that cartridge as my exibit cartridge.
During the last many years of using this cartridge I have had most of them show a preference for a specific load that is at the top of the spectrum for velocity 60gr R22 and a 100gr bullet, usually operates at about 3550fps depending on barrel length and quality. however, starting several years ago Ive noticed that my brass is going [beeep]-up prematurely. I used to get split necks before loose primers but now Im only getting three loads from my brass before having to toss them.
Its usual that when I chamber a new barrel (in the 06 family) I will in turn build new brass for that barrel. The 2506AI for example used to last about as long a 100 pieces of brass loaded 10+ times. Now my brass only lasts 3 loadings.
My buddy is running a 270 win strait and usually only uses it for hunting thus has brass purchased many years ago so I asked him for a piece to do some comparisons to. To my surprise, his old brass measured .468 at the web base junction. (just above the extractor groove).
In the last years I have purchased several makers brass including PPU Winchester, Nosler, Remington, and today my starline brass showed up. All makes of brass are stamped 270win.
Measuring the same location on the brass Im getting reading from .464-.465".
Why has 06 brass gotten so narrow at the base now days? Should I order a new reamer with a base dimension of .468" to help alleviate the loose primer issue?
Anyone who shoots one of these cartridges will tell you that turning necks, deburing flash-holes and trimming to length before fireforming is extensive work and wear and tear just to have brass go south so quickly. Hense the reason I havent been buying Lapua brass just to add expense to the equation also.
As a side note, my22, 6mm, 6.5creed measures .468"
My 22-250 rem measures .468"
My 6mm br measures .470"
my 243 measure .469 and my 308 brass measure .467"
Why is the 06 family measuring .464" when all the chambers mentioned are saami spec'd at .472"?

If someone has lapua brass (probably 3006) can you tell me what it measures?

Like I mentioned, The load is a stout load but its always been safe and never had sticky bolt lift or extractor marks.
 
No one else having issues with third reloads with 06 brass? This problem sure is giving me headaches and I could use some ideas.
Anyone using RWS brass or Lapua brass that can give me a measurement of the base?
Id spend the cash if I thought I could get more loads from a case. Fire forming brass so often takes its toll on overbore barrels not to mention all the time trueing the brass.

Help?
 
Just measured some brass for you.
30-06 Virgin Lapua 0.466
308 Virgin Lapua 0.469
243 Remington once fired 0.469

In my limited experience - loose primers is normally a sign you're shooting high pressure. Doubtful, but a remote possibility could be the lot of powder.

Even shooting a tight neck chamber - high velocity, high pressure rounds will open primer pockets and ruin a case PDQ.
crazy.gif
 
Thanks
Hmm,. 466" is still not what I'm after
So my question is why are other .472" cartridges only .004" smaller while the 06 cartridge is .007-.008" smaller?
Having that much discrepancy seems logical the brass will stretch more since the brass isn't designed to hold chamber pressure, the chamber is? The brass is just supposed to be a seal right? Also if its not very tight wouldn't the extractor push the brass to the side when in the chamber causing poor accuracy?

I'm wondering if anyone might have any rws brass that could measure for me? Please?

I'm willing to slow the velocity down but the next lower accuracy node is about 3350fps, nothing the 2506 strait can't do using less powder. Since my only signs of pressure are loose primers and nothing more, I'm skeptical that its over pressure, the 270win is rated for 65000psi and if I was pushing that hard I'd at least have flat primers or extractor marks?

Different powder lots are likely not the reason since I've burned 50+ lbs over the years and western powder says they have no information that the formula has changed over the years before or after my problem began. Not to mention I use R33 and H1000 in my 6.5 06ai and it suffers the same fate.

If rws brass doesn't have what I'm looking for I may have to rechamber to 257saum and 6.5saum since the h2o is almost the same.

I just hope someone has rws brass the can measure for me please.
 
That is interesting, and I don't have an answer for you. You got me curious enough to go measure some brass. I've got a crap load of once fired 30-06 brass, some commercial various brands, and a pile of mil-surp, I think Greek. And it's around .466, .467 at most. I checked some Creedmoor, and 243 and some of that is up to .471 on 6x fired Lapua. It gets used in a 243 AR so it takes a beating, but it isn't visibly expanded like the 06 brass.

Also interesting, years ago I had a Weatherby 25-06 light weight Mk V. It shot ok, but the base of the brass just ahead of the web expanded to a scary looking degree. Obviously a sloppy chamber, but I never thought to check brass.
 
Sloppy chamber was another thought I had. Then I thought maybe I had an over sized reamer maybe? My tools are likely not precise as needed to measure in such a fine detail but if it was a reamer issue I would have had the issue years ago since Ive chambered 7 or 8 barrels with it. After my first 6.506AI and 280AI it became obvious that its not a reamer issue.

It seems that almost all (except my buddies old win 270 brass) that industry standards spec 06 brass as smaller than what it should be? Maybe I should purchase a reamer that is designed .468" at the base?

Has anyone had any success forming 6.5X64 Brenneke or 6.5x65 RWS brass down to 06 specs(if it has a .468-.472 base size)? Ill have to purchase some to measure if no one else has any to measure for me. Its expensive brass but would pay for itself if I didnt have to spend so much time building and forming brass?

Thanks to everyone who has participated
 
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My custom chambered 243 mag expands alot in the shoulders. The brass is sometimes a choir to make just depending on what I make it from. Ive used 30-06,270 & 25-06 brass. Of course the 25-06 is the simplest to form from. If your fired brass has to expand alot in the shoulders (or over all expansion) its pulling from the web of the head (loose primers) Headspace expansion is the worst type expansion & wears heavily on the brass. Size the brass for a tight headspace (0.003)

Another problem that can cause high pressure is a simple one that I over looked myself recently! These speed demons leave a lot of fouling in the bore & require a good over night soak (& then some) to remove it all. The fouling will raise pressure of a pet load if over looked.

Hope maybe this helps..
 
Originally Posted By: Coyote#1My custom chambered 243 mag expands alot in the shoulders. The brass is sometimes a choir to make just depending on what I make it from. Ive used 30-06,270 & 25-06 brass. Of course the 25-06 is the simplest to form from. If your fired brass has to expand alot in the shoulders (or over all expansion) its pulling from the web of the head (loose primers) Headspace expansion is the worst type expansion & wears heavily on the brass. Size the brass for a tight headspace (0.003)

Another problem that can cause high pressure is a simple one that I over looked myself recently! These speed demons leave a lot of fouling in the bore & require a good over night soak (& then some) to remove it all. The fouling will raise pressure of a pet load if over looked.

Hope maybe this helps..

This is good advice. That is actually how I make my brass, I chamber tight on a 2506AI headspace gauge then when I build brass I use a headspace comparator gauge to measure the go gauge then neck down my brass just far enough to give a tight fit in the chamber.
Im begining to wonder if nowadays brass is softer in the base too?
Does the undersized base on your 06 brass give you trouble with loose primers?
I have a 6mm06AI reamer that Ive only used once for a customers rifle but havent built one for myself (maybe after I get this brass issue figured or find brass that lasts longer).
Its strange that I can push my 22-243 middlested and 22 creed to the max and dont have these issues. The only difference that I can see is the head size on the brass. As usual, split necks before loose primers even with 35gr bullets over 5000fps.
I ordered 20 pieces of 6.5x65RWS brass today to see how well it holds up. Time will tell I guess.
 
Also, I use a bore scope to check my barrels after cleaning. Im confident a dirty barrel is not the issue and I always spend the effort to make sure the carbon ring is gone also.
 
Yea I get loose primers even with new brass if I don't keep the headspace of the formed case within reason before the initial firing process. There is more brass in a 270 or better yet a 30-06! But of course the larger ya get the harder the sizing process + more trimming & ya gotta really watch the neck diameter. But I believe you end up with tougher cases when you form from 30-06.
 
Originally Posted By: Coyote#1Yea I get loose primers even with new brass if I don't keep the headspace of the formed case within reason before the initial firing process. There is more brass in a 270 or better yet a 30-06! But of course the larger ya get the harder the sizing process + more trimming & ya gotta really watch the neck diameter. But I believe you end up with tougher cases when you form from 30-06.

Thanks, Ill try some 3006 brass too then (Any specific flavor brass?). I chose 270brass due to the longer neck so I could trim to max length before fireforming and have found I loose .010" during the fireforming process making my brass pretty close to trim length when I was finished. When using 3006 brass I end up with brass .010 shorter than trim length after fireforming but could live with that issue if my primer pockets hold up better. If it became a real issue I could short chamber my barrel by .010 also. and push the shoulder back to match leaving my brass with a longer neck.
As far as thicker brass from 3006 cases, I fully understand that and thats why Ive been neck turning my brass (weather it needs it or not) for many years. I feel as though it helps in the accuracy department regardless what people say.

Thank you for your wisdom and advice, Ill see where this goes. Ill be chambering up a fresh 6.506AI tomorrow.
It sounds like my 6.5x65RWS brass is on the way so Ill be investigating that too, Ill let you know what I think of it and weather it might help your hotrod out too?
 
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Couple of things, brass will differ from lot to lot. The same manufacturer may have variations in dia from lot to lot. We all deal with this, no way to get around it but to buy several thousand of the same lot number and manufacturer, then you can design a reamer around that brass.

When fire forming brass, it sounds like there is a possibility that you maybe fire forming with too hot a load, which give you similar, if not the same, results you are seeing. I learned this the hard way....Load was very, very accurate, most accurate fire forming but ruined the brass for wanting 10+ firings on the brass.

I started doing one of two things in all my Ackley chambers, I would first work up a fire forming load to see how accurate it is, and make the decision to hunt with that load as velocity is usually 100 fps less than a formed load...safe pressures. I carried a hand de primer from Neil Jones to the range with me and de primed when firing the fire forming loads. This tells me if the loads are too hot.

Second, I would fire form my 280 AI with 14.6-15g(MAX)g of Bullseye and cream of wheat, which gave me a 95%+ fully formed case.

With the 17 Ackley Hornet
223 Ackley
22/250 Ackley
6-22/250 AI
243 AI
6 Rem AI


I hunted while fire forming loads. The 280 AI is the only case that I have fire formed using Cream of wheat so I could take full advantage of the 175g LRAB and the 180g Berger Hunting VLD bullets with IMR 7828.

For cheap tough brass, I will go to Winchester. In the '06, Unfired Lake City Match brass is excellent. I form Lapua '06 brass for my 280 AI...I don't care what it costs...primer pockets do not give up the ghost, accuracy is astounding, with blistering accuracy...watch for sales...stock up.

Avoid Federal brass for these AI's.
 
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It didnt take me long to figure out that federal brass has changed their formula over the years. I used to use it religiously years ago because it worked so well but its gotten too soft starting about 15 years ago.
I know the cream of wheat technique is a good idea but Ive never really had the desire to do it. Maybe I should look into it further, however, Your comment about max loads or hot loads to fireform with caught my attention. Instead of COW method, I usually use the last accuracy out of the previous barrel to fireform with. Its obvious when the barrel has had enough when it looks like fish scales in the bore scope. lol
YES, I have been using max or slightly over max loads to fireform with. If the book says max load for 2506 strait (or my other AIs) is such and such, I usually add a little so I can get nice sharp edges on my shoulders. My primers fit fine afterwords so I never thought that to be the issue. Its your claim that this can cause my issues? Thats interesting?
As for hunting, I generally dont look for accurate loads for hunting, It takes too long to fireform enough brass to make it worth while. Not to mention in the heat of the hunt brass gets lost. I spend a day pounding steel to do my fireforming and most any load has acceptable accuracy without chasing too hard. In fact I usually use a left over powder that didnt perform to my liking and cheap bullets to fireform my brass. I will however reduce my fireforming load and see if my brass lasts longer.
Thanks for the information.
 
I just got my 6.5x65RWS brass in today. For anyone interested the base measures .469". Will take a little finesse to get it sized to fit properly but we just had 12" of snow and calling for another 7" tomorrow night so I should have plenty of time to fiddle with it.
 
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