Turning 223 cases into 221 Fireball?

rudymontana

rudymontana

New member
Well Rusty has peaked my desire to get a 221 Fireball. I have a ton of 223 brass and would like to form it into the 221 Fireball. I know I can get the 3 die set and form them. I read about turning the neck to a certain diameter because of expansion etc. What tool do I need for this and what is the process? The article that I read-States to Deburr before reaming the inside of the neck or turning the outside to the desired thickness (around .029 inch) to assure necks have room to expand and properly release bullets without causing pressure spikes.
Thanks for any help. Rudy
 
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You'll want to use a neck turning tool to achieve desired neck thickness.

The neck turning tool will leave necks of uniform thickness, which is a key ingredient in concentric ammo.

An inside reamer doesn't improve uniformity of neck thickness. And when moving that much brass around, as when going from .223 to .221, there is going to be some neck thickness variation.

Sometimes, if you have a lot of neck thickness to remove, it's easiest to do both. Use the inside reamer to remove the bulk of the material and then use the neck turning tool to take the remainder off and leave perfectly uniform neck thickness.

Keep an eye on web diameter of your .221 chamber and chosen .223 brass. Fitment issues there are not uncommon with this particular conversion and can be a bear to deal with.

- DAA
 
If you have never read this book you should! Precision shooting reloading guide by Dave Brennan. Its not cheap! but it has a wealth of info and is worth every penny IMO.

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That was helpful, wasn't it, Rudy? Dave is a wealth of good information.

It will take a few bucks to get all what you need to do this, and of course some of your time, but having good .221 brass from easy to find and inexpensive 5.56 or .223 is the end result.

Dang. Now I'm tempted to do it myself.
 
Yea thats some good info! It does all pritty much come down to brass selection no matter if you turn or not. Which in your case ya gonna have to turn.
 
If going 221 FB, consider the 20 Vartarg, also. Everyone that I know that has one is absolutely in love with it! Higher bc than 22 caliber bullets extends the range a tad, they say.

I have had a couple of 221's, one on a set back 223 Rem 700 varmint, and another on a 20" Thompson Contender. I shot the 40 at 3600. Also had a short and long range load for the 50g Speer TNT using AA1680.

Consider feeding issues associated with a Rem 700....it ain't gonna work without considerable work and expense. A single stack CZ or Tikka maybe a better option, right out of gate.

My 221 FB's were p. dog and squirrel rifles.

I use a set of form dies made by Paul Bike, they are fabulous to say the least. Harbor freight makes a nice litte cut off saw for around $59.

If you go the 221 FB from Lake City brass, it would be prudent to try and buy new Lake City brass OR buy a Redding Small base sizer for the 223 before you ever get started. Often, those chambers in the AR's are beyond huge, especially if the brass is fired in a SAW.

Be aware of the fact that the brass retains a memory of the chamber it was first fired in. You size the brass down, it has a "spring back". Often, if the chambers are huge, it will "Normalize" over time, trying to spring back out....how much is a guess. I have ran into this a couple of times in a couple of different calibers other than Lake City brass.

Often, custom 221 FB reamers are designed tight in the web, I got busted by this also. I want the reamer print to be .003 larger in the web than the LC brass I am using.

If you like making cheap brass, consider the 222 Remington also, they feed from a rem 700 action with ease. In 20 caliber, the 20 bobcat is off the 222 brass if my memory is right.

As far as neck turning, I use a K&M in a slow adjustable speed 1/2" drill, and can turn 6 cases per minute...nice Winter project for a couple of thousand rounds. Have a TV in the garage set on Fox News, the more upset you get at the liberals, the faster you turn the necks.

I set the speed of the drill with the little wheel in the trigger, mount the drill in a large bench vise, just feed the cases on by hand...easy peasy. The slow speed of the 1/2" drill is much better than a drill press unless you can find a drill press that goes down to 70 rpm and most are 3x that amount. Gauling of the mandrels is an issue.

I am making the 6 XC cases from new Lake City 308 brass now, stuff is tough as nails. I tested the accuracy of formed cases and it was sub to 1/4" groups.

These kind of wild cat projects are a lot of fun, if you like this kinda tinkering fun. Most would consider it like sitting on the front porch steps killing ants with a hammer. I say, pass the sugar water.

 
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I have maybe 100 lake city formed 222.. Got rid of my 222 so I don't need them.
They are just lying around collecting dust! You can have them if you want'em! Just pay the S&H.
 
I got rid of my 221 Fire Balls because I got to know a guy named Sea Fire over on 24hr campfire. He introduced me to blue dot loads in my 223, so I duplicated the 221 fire balls loads with blue dot used in the 223.

However, it is not comparing apples to apples. The Fire ball is more accurate and can be pushed 200fps faster than the 223 with blue dot loads.
 
No offence, but it would be cheaper just to buy the brass! To get set up properly for turning necks, bushing dies & all its gonna be expensive..

Btw, A1680 is a very good powder to duplicate velocities from 22 hornet to 221 in 223.
 
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When I made all my .221 and .17 Mach IV out of IMI .223, there was only Rem. brass for .221 and it was crap. The IMI that I used is [beeep] for stout in the primer pockets, made some really, really good Fireball and Mach IV brass.

Now, there is Lapua, which I'm sure is fantastic. And if I only needed a couple hundred, I'd probably just buy it and be done. At the cost of it though, if I needed a thousand? I'd still make it from .223... But I didn't buy anything for the operation, either. Already had enough odds and ends of dies to make it work along with reamers and neck turners.

Keith, I have been using the drill press for turning for many years. I forget right now the low RPM but it's way high for neck turning. 500 RPM, I think. Never had a speck of galling even on one tool steel mandrel (the rest are all carbide) and makes a super fine finish on the neck. Not recommended by K&M, so don't do it at home, but I have been for a very long time and wouldn't go back to low RPM neck turning. I think it's the lube that I use that makes it work so well, Tapmatic Edge Cream. Just a few of the ones I've tried over the years shown below, but that Tapmatic stuff whoops them all by a mile when turning on the drill press. My Dad turned me on to it about twenty years ago.

Case%20Neck%20Turning-400-2W.jpg


- DAA
 
Yes depending on how much brass your talking about beside buying the tools and your time if your only looking for a couple hundred case just buy the Lapua 221 brass.
I've formed over 2000 20 vt cases from lake city .556 brass so it was kinda worth it but if i only needed a few hundred I would have just bought 221 and necked it down
 
Originally Posted By: Coyote#1No offence, but it would be cheaper just to buy the brass! To get set up properly for turning necks, bushing dies & all its gonna be expensive.

Have to agree. http://www.highplainsbrass.com/ has made from 5.56 LC .221 brass for $40 a 100 and it works fine in my gun.

I only have tried 200 rounds of it but my Furball likes it just as well as R-P brass and it seems to be a bit more stout as well.
 
Rusty I looked at the highplainsbrass. I see they are made from LC brass. I couldn't tell if they had annealed the necks. I will definitely look at them again.

Thanks for all the comments and information on this subject. Very educational.

Rudy
 
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I went out and looked at the brass that I got from them. I looks like they do not do any annealing. I cannot tell that it hurts anything with my loads. I do not load my Furball loads hot and that seems to help case life as much as anything.

I have (mostly) R-P brass, a couple hundred rounds of Lapua, and a couple hundred of reformed 5.56 and my 100 yard group sizes do not reflect a lot of differences. If I had a bench gun instead of varmint rifle then maybe I could tell a difference.
 
I was working up a load for a custom 221 FB, Krieger 14t on a benchrest rifle two weeks ago, and accuracy with the lapua brass is in the 1/4" area with 52g Bergers. Very low recoil and fun to shoot. We were loading at the rifle range, pard was loading and I was shooting. When he jammed the lands .005 bullets started going in the same hole. The reamer used to cut the chamber had .015 freebore. This same pard has a Krieger vartarg barrel for this same benchrest rifle, both are very accurate, along with his 222 barrel for the same rifle.
 
Dave, thanks so much for the tip on the neck turning lube. I will order it as soon as I type this message. I have been fighting mandrel gauling forever, and you are right, it is all about the lube.

Higher rpm neck turned necks sure do look pretty, eh?

My shooting partner is fighting a reamer vs Lapua brass problem. Most 221 FB reamers are not large enough in the web for lapua brass, usually they have to be designed for lapua brass and his is not. Neither is his Vartarg or his 222,so he has problems with higher pressure loads where the bug hole accuracy is.

I think that the http://www.highplainsbrass.com/ would be worth a shot, or send them some New LC of all the same year for them to form for you. The LC is much smaller in the web than Lapua.

Found it:

https://www.amazon.com/LPS-43100-Tapmatic-Cr%C3%A8me-
 
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