Failed to fire with CCI BR primers.

Rustydust

Rustydust

Active member
Hey Guys

My 25 year old Savage 112 has been giving me ignition problems. It's wearing it's third barrel (.223 AI) and other than that and a Rifle Basix trigger it is factory. I loaded up some new SIG .223 brass the other day to fireform and I had some 50 grain Vmaxes loaded with some VV V133 powder. Went to the local range and after putting on my muffs (my suppressor is soaking in solvent at the moment) and getting into shooting position I tried my first shot. Click. What? Opened and closed the bolt again. Click. Tried it a third time and it fired. This kept happening until I had one round that would not fire despise how many times I tried. The primers were fresh out of the box CCI BR-4. My favorite cap. Many a thousand have I purchased over the years. I tried some other ammo both in .223 and .223 AI and nary a problem. All went off and even shot excellent. Hmmm....

After I got home I tried loaded some of the primers out of the same brick into some of the same kind of new brass. Just the primer. Waddayaknow? Misfires again. Multiple strikes needed (at least two) to make it fire. Tried some CCI 450, CCI 400, Federal and W-W primers and no failures. Then I found a partial box of older BR primers and all 11 pf them fired no problem. Interesting.

Gets better. Tried those same suspect primers in one of my other .223 Rifles, this one my CZ 527, and pop pop pop pop pop pop. OK. Now what?

A year or so ago I seem to be having some misfires with that gun so (thanks YouTube) I took the bolt apart and cleaned it (not all that dirty) and that seemed to help make it go bang. But now I am wondering if all I need to do is replace the firing pin and spring and that will be the fix. I have been told that BR caps are thicker but are they even thicker now? Older ones I had ignited fine. AND the new ones fired in the CZ without a hitch. Could be a combo of weak spring/blunt firing pin and harder primers?

Brownells has a firing pin/spring for $20. I think that I will buy it and see what that does. May as well try it.

Any of you guys got any ideas? I love the BR primers, even at their increased cost. Hate to quit using them in this gun.
 
Check the headspace of a fired rnd from the rifle. You are likely setting the shoulders back to far when you are sizing & the firing pin is simply pushing the case forward & lightening the fireing pin strike.
CCI primers are hard! A switch to winchester will likely fix the problem as well. Go back to cci after fire forming your cases.
 
Well, this was brand new brass right out of the package. The same brass with different primers lit every time. Even with old BR primers. Other new ammo fired off without a hitch too.
 
RD, I'm wondering if it's a combination of a couple things. You said you were fireforming so I'm thinking it could be that because there is excess headspace and the firing pin is actually pushing the cartridge forward causing inconsistent ignition and to compound the problem those particular primers have a little thicker cup and require a good strike to set them off.

If you aren't already doing so, try seating the bullets out far enough for them to touch the lands or even far enough for a slight jam into the lands, that'll not only hold the case head against the bolt face but you'll also get a better fireform on your brass. Keep in mind though, if you're already at a near max load, when you seat them out to touch the lands, you'll probably want to slightly reduce the charge weight or it could get you into over pressure.
 
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Someone else said to try that and I think that I will. I will have to partially pull the bullets that are seated right now. I will try a dozen or so and see what happens. The chamber has a short throat so cannot go very far out.

But like I said, other caps are going off just fine. Only the new BR primers are having an issue. Supposed to be in the mid 90's here today so I think that I will wait a day or two and hit the range again and do a bit more experimenting. Due to the price of them now I dont use the BR primers as much as I used to but they are still my favorite. If they were still $27 brick I would not be using anything else.
 
I'd be surprised if seating the bullets out to touch or better yet, a slight jam, doesn't cure your problem.

For fireforming, I always seat them out to a slight jam. I think by keeping the casehead tight against the bolt face it's easier on the brass because it blows the shoulders out without stretching the case as much, and I think you get an overall better forming of the brass.
 
I will give it a try, Bryan. At least for this batch of primers anyway. But again, no problems when using other primers or firing it in other guns. But wont hurt to see what happens. Be interesting even.
 
Is it a tight fit with this new brass when you close the bolt? Could it be this new batch of brass is not fitting tight in your 223 AI?

I have been fire forming lots of new LC 223 brass to 223 AI and every once in a while I get a light strike on my CCI BR primers. When I try shooting that round again most of the time it fires on the second try. But most of these brass that do that crack in the middle of the brass when it does fire.

So I am pretty sure the problem I am having is the 223 brass not fitting tight in the 223 AI chamber.

On this same Rem 700 rifle I had the firing pin spring replaced 4 or 5 years ago because the firing pin was not hitting the primer hard enough. I watched my gun smith remove the old spring it was about one inch shorter than the new spring.
 
Originally Posted By: derbyacresbobIs it a tight fit with this new brass when you close the bolt? Could it be this new batch of brass is not fitting tight in your 223 AI?

I have been fire forming lots of new LC 223 brass to 223 AI and every once in a while I get a light strike on my CCI BR primers. When I try shooting that round again most of the time it fires on the second try. But most of these brass that do that crack in the middle of the brass when it does fire.

So I am pretty sure the problem I am having is the 223 brass not fitting tight in the 223 AI chamber.



Well, like I said, no other primers and any trouble going off with the same brass. Not a one. Only the BR caps and only the ones from the last brick that I bought. The primed brass would take 2-3 hits to go off with the BR caps but never with any others I tried. So I am thinking it's a combination of weak spring and hard primers.

I guess that I will find out when I get my new firing pin and spring from Brownells. It is on back order (drat!) but squirrel season is over and I can wait. Getting too dang hot to shoot anyway.
 
Originally Posted By: RustydustWell, this was brand new brass right out of the package. The same brass with different primers lit every time. Even with old BR primers. Other new ammo fired off without a hitch too.


Yea I figured as much.. Try the Win primers. I would still want to know the headspace though! this is important info for safety & seting up the die to push the shoulders back properly.
 
Call and see if CCI wants what's left of the primers you have. If it is a lot problem they need to know, if they test them and performance meets standards then the firearm is the issue( it doesn't sound like a rifle problem). Make sure your firing pin spring is NOT greased.
 
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Well, those primers are working fine in my other .223 so who knows. And I dont grease my firing pin. A very light spray of aerosol lubricant. Same as last 20 years. And gun will shoot all other primers just fine. No problems at all. If my gun did not shoot its best groups with the BR primer then I would not use them. But it does so I do.
 
Russ, replace the firing pin spring if it continues.

Also, take the bolt apart, look down inside. If you have blanked a primer in the past, that little Tit got blown back in the bolt body, now it is impeding the firing pin fall...maybe.
 
I got new firing pin and spring ordered from Brownells, Keith. I am hoping that will fix the issue. But like I said, only the BR primer and only ones from one brick of primers are doing it. Some others I tried worked fine.

And this is with the VV N133 load that you suggested. When they go off they shoot good. Got .400" with five shots at 100 yards.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymanRemember, the BR4's have thick primer cups. Would be interesting to see if they do the same with CCI 450's, Tula's, or Rem 7 1/2.

I put this in the first post, Keith:

"Tried some CCI 450, CCI 400, Federal and W-W primers and no failures. Then I found a partial box of older BR primers and all 11 pf them fired no problem. Interesting."
 
I would just change the spring for now, firing pins break but rarely wear out. Changing the firing pin you get into firing pin protrusion issues and need a depth indicator to set. Oop.s I think you'll have to deal with firing pin protrusion changing the spring also, it's been 20 yrs since I've done one. I had a fail to fire on a used one I bought and it was the spring.
 
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Originally Posted By: AWSI would just change the spring for now, firing pins break but rarely wear out. Changing the firing pin you get into firing pin protrusion issues and need a depth indicator to set. Oop.s I think you'll have to deal with firing pin protrusion changing the spring also, it's been 20 yrs since I've done one. I had a fail to fire on a used one I bought and it was the spring.

Well, the firing pin and spring come in a kit so will change them both out at the same time. I bet that will take care of it as like I said, those primers were firing off just fine in one of my other .223 rifles.
 
"Tried some CCI 450, CCI 400, Federal and W-W primers and no failures". Russ, as you know, only the cci 450's have thick cups in this group.

I expect that the new firing pin spring will fix the issue, as many other Shooters have found. For some reason, I read of this with savage owners than any other brand of action. Makes me think that the barrel is not screwed in far enough into the action? I am only guessing of course.
 
Some good advice,but if this rifle was recently firing fine with other brass, like I said I would suspect the new brass has the shoulders set back to far, or yea you could have broke the firing pin (easy enough to find that problem) Its,not uncommen for new brass to be at minimun headspace.
I always like to check options that aren't going to cost me anything first. But to each there own.
 
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