Can I please get your thoughts on this

Interesting thoughts on target medium playing a role in bullet performance; good points made. I have had a few splashes with the vmax bullets and seen enough marginal performance with them on coyotes to think that there are better bullets to use for my purposes. However, it is interesting to me that DD has had different experiences, so I wonder if it is the medium (the size, and body composition of the coyotes being shot) that is the difference, possibly? The ones I have shot with the 50 vmax outta of a 223 AR that I was disappointed with were a couple of mature males, about 30-33 lbs, I would guess. One was full broadside with bullet placement just slightly ahead of the #4 in the above picture. He dropped at the shot, then got up and ran about 100-125 and tipped over. Skinning revealed a dime sized entry with a crater underneath about the size of a tennis ball. No damage at all on the off side. Looked like the bullet completely fragmented on the ribs, and didn't penetrate much further. The second coyote was quartered away and the bullet was placed at the last rib and did basically the same thing. This coyote never went down but spun once and took off running hard. A semi-lucky follow up shot on the run hit him about the withers and that was that. Pretty well tore up a prime December coyote with 2 rounds. They were both heavy furred and relatively large coyotes for this area. I wonder if the heavy fur and body mass didn't have something to do with the bullet performance of the vmax compared to smaller, lesser furred coyotes?

The only coyote I have seen shot with the 40 vmax was a smaller female with an extreme case of mange. She took a full frontal shot centered just above her breast bone at about 40-50 yards from my partner's AR. She dropped, got up and ran about 75 yards and then just collapsed with out even kicking. There was a trail of blood drops spaced out about 2-3 inches apart the whole distance she ran. Kinda of interesting to see in the snow.

I have learned that just cause I ain't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't been seen by someone else.
 
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One of PM's moderators finds the 223 40gr Vmax plenty effective.

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How can so many shooters have such different experiences? Probably shot placement is my guess. What some consider a "solid shot" may not be. Some guys just can't shoot as effectively as other guys. Perhaps part of that has to do with waiting for the right moment to place the shot, sometimes making the shot happen via tactics and training.

I mean, it can't just be pure luck that some guys are successful with a certain bullet while others despise it.

Perhaps guys who are successful with light bullets are just better at shot placement? I bet an experiened 17Rem hunter will also have success with a 204 or 223 40gr Vmax because he knows how to wait for the shot

By the same token, a 6.5 shooter who gets regular spinners and runners will also have spinners and runners with a 223 40gr Vmax.

I'm convinced the difference is the ability of the jerk pulling the trigger.
 
I used a 17-223 all last season using 25 grain hp's and never had anything but good results except for one that was hit too far back as it was running broadside at about 125. I shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 coyotes with that load. I shot about 8-10 the season before with the 50 vmax before I switched over to the 50 noslers. After skinning and looking at the results, I'm comfortable with my conclusions on what works best for me. I'm pretty much a fur hunter, so bear that in mind also; I don't shoot many coyotes from March through October unless they are messing with livestock or are mangy. I load up the vmax bullets in my truck gun for the summer for their accuracy and performance on prairie dogs.There is no doubt about any bullet will be effective, just some that work better than others for certain purposes.

I find it interesting that some people will take one persons experience as gospel and totally despise another persons without having met either individual. The judgement seems to rest in how the judge wants to be personally validated.

Shooting ability is a major factor in being successful in any firearm endeavor, but to say that it is "the difference" appears to show either inexperience, arrogance, or a combination.


Beware the invisible dragon.
 
DirtyDog quote"Concrete is a poor example since zero of the projectiles you mention achieve any penetration at all on concrete. They are not designed for that. Anyways nobody is hunting chunks of concrete."

I wasn't using concrete to shoot bullets at, I was using the concrete/raw chicken egg at different velocities to illustrate the point speed makes in potential projectile performance.

The same bullet out of my 222Remmag at 3,300fps, and my son's 223wssm at 3,800fps behaves differently on coyotes. Mine kills them, his crushes them, with more noticeable body damage than my rifle produces.

Funny story using the 60gr Vmax in his 223wssm, at 3,700fps. We had a coyote stopped at 180yds, broadside. I'm watching through my bino's when he shoots. The coyote drops immediately, but while I am still looking through the binos, I see something brown fall out of the sky. I thought it was a bird. When we got over to the coyote, we find a chunk of fur next to the carcass, it was a piece of her back, between the shoulder blades.

I've heard of, but have never tried it, loading a bullet designed for the 30-30 in a 300Win. The report is that the bullet may not make it 50 yds, most likely due to rotational forces the 30-30 bullet was not designed for.
 
I only shoot two different rounds, .223 Hornady Superformance 53gr and Hornady Superformance .243 58gr

They can be a bit pricey if you don’t shop around, i can honestly say i love both of them for Coyotes.
Rarely have a runner, Gut shot Coyotes run quite aways, heart shot Coyotes can also run quite a ways.

As stated above, you possibly hit #6, he spun a few times which is normal for a “Gut” shot. He is dead I’m sure, but where?
 
Originally Posted By: Shooter222Yes.
I am/was shooting White Box Hornady Match - hollow point boat tail 75grains .




hornady only makes one 75gr bthp bullet that i'm aware of (ok two.. one has a cannelure, but its the same bullet otherwise - same SD/BC). and not only do they load it in their match ammo.. its also in the TAP lineup - which is used by military/LE... so its dependable not only for accuracy, but in dumping energy where it belongs - in the target. and quickly at that. translastion - its not a thick jacket match round thats just gonna pencil through.

here's hornady ballistic test of it in gel - from their LE/MIL website... so i'm reasonably comfortable saying your circumstance was more related to a missed shot placement than projectile performance

https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/75-gr-bthp-tap#!/

also from the guys at bARF with their gel test in a shorty barrel, with MV in the 2370 fps range - which shows a full permant wound cavity by 4"...





i run that same bullet out of my 20" barrel at 2550 for my accuracy load, and have run it north of 2700 with my full house load thats also well into hunting accurate (3/4 moa or so) and wouldnt think twice about stuffing it into any thin skinned medium game/predator/critter that needed to achieve room temperature.

my point is - trust your TYPICAL result - along with other correlated data , not your one anomaly result. those kind of things can happen with *ANY* bullet. no need to 2nd guess yourself over one blip in your data.


just some food for thought



 
When I could shoot coyotes with lead bullets at coyotes I probable killed at least 200 coyotes with my 22-250 using 55 gr V-Max and with my 243 with 75 gr V-Max bullets and never had one of those bullets splash on our 20 pound to 35 pound coyotes.

I have also seen Al and Garvin kill around 15 coyotes shooting Hornady 35 Gr NTX Lead Free bullets at 4,000 to 4,400 fps, none of these little fast bullets splashed and all of the coyotes fell over DRT.

The only splash wound I have ever seen on a coyotes was with a Nosler 55g Lead Free BT bullet out of my 243 Win at around 3,800 fps. It was a head on chest shot. This coyote didn't go anywhere.

I think how much the coyotes weighs may make a difference on how many splash wounds you get. What I have seen is if the bullet exits the coyote I have way more runners. If the bullets comes apart inside the coyote with no exits the coyote very seldom runs anywhere.
 
Bob, maybe CA coyotes just have a biological weakness towards V-max bullets and die easy?
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Coyotes seem more V-max resistent in NV and UT, hence the "splashes". Then the coyotes in OK get easier to kill with V-max (see above pic). But next door in KS the coyotes are once again V-max resistent. Must have something to do with genetics and breeding within state lines.
 
There’s a big difference between hunting coyotes at night with a thermal and during the day with a good day optic. There’s a reason a pile of day hunters run 223/22-250’s and guys that hunt contests at night run 6mm variants and other hot rods. If you night hunt and you don’t want to lose coyotes, save yourself the time and trouble most of us went through looking for the perfect bullet and grab a 243 or something with more [beeep] behind it than a 223 and have fun. A70 grain busker btip is a absolute killer and coyotes don’t often run off with one of them
 
The first splash I saw with the vmax, I think a 40 grain but may have been a 32, on a 27 pound KS bobcat. My brother shot it at about 100 feet broadside. Entry looked kinda like a crater, about the size of ping pong ball. Knocked it down but it got up and ran about 40-50 yards before it died. I fully agree with derbyacresbob that exits generally result in more runners and Infidels thoughts that a full energy dump in the critter is a good thing.

If I happen to be around another splash on a coyote I will sure take some pictures to share. I'm beginning to think more and more that size and density of the critter, as well as how heavy the hair coat is makes a difference in bullet performance, especially after reading this thread and some of the others regarding the vmax splashes. Like K22 mentioned also, velocity is going to play a role, too. I know that barrel twist and rpm's make a big difference in how a bullet will perform in many cases.
 
Hunting at night with thermal is quite a different game. Shooting at a digital image many times moving or trying to time doubles with a partner while standing shooting off of a tripod. We hunt coyotes for erradication. My buddy does put them up bit if the .243 blows em up thats cool too.
I prefer a fragile or fast expanding bullet for all application on coyotes.
 
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Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: K-22hornet.Bullet construction plays a huge role in bullet performance.

Think of this: drop a raw chicken egg on the concrete, then throw another raw chicken egg against the concrete as fast as you can. Notice the difference velocity at impact makes?

Now do the same with a similar sized object, a golf ball. Very different outcome due to projectile construction, right?

Hornaday V-max are more like a raw chicken egg;

Nosler B-tips are more like a soft boiled egg;

softpoints are more like a hardboiled egg;

Mono-metals, like Barnes, are golf balls.

Match grade bullets, may, or may not, expand reliably. Match bullets are not designed for consistent expansion, whereas 'hunting' bullets are designed to expand reliably.

I like Vmax in my 243, not so much in the 22cal.

I like Btips in the 22cal, not so much in 243.

Softpoints usually work well in both calibers. Concrete is a poor example since zero of the projectiles you mention achieve any penetration at all on concrete. They are not designed for that. Anyways nobody is hunting chunks of concrete.

Target material plays as big a role (or bigger role) than bullet construction. A fast 223 40gr Vmax will both splash on concrete AND all punch thru mild steel (ex: 1/4" or even AR500) like a hot knife thru butter, no splashing. Same as a SP or copper solid on steel. But those different bullets will each perform different on game.

I like the 223 40gr Vmax for coyotes, it puts them down hard. One of the mods here uses it extensively and he puts down more coyotes with it than about anybody else here.

Yet so many avoid 223 40gr Vmax and ALL Vmax due to alleged "bullet splash". I've never seen it. I have raked the brisket with a bad shot and tore open the fur or blown off legs. I have hit the front leg joint dead on that made a mess. Those are not splashes.

Somebody post up some pics of all these alleged splashes from light Vmax bullets. I would like to see some, since I never have seen it.

I HAVE seen lots of videos and pics of bad shots, gut shots, and coyotes that were shot waaay too far back, perhaps still barely hitting the rear edge of the lung or liver which so often causes spinning and runners. It seems that is what happened to the OP based on his description.

A spinner and runner is most likely a "gut shot". If you shoot a coyote and it spins/runs for a few seconds or 5 or 10 seconds it's because you hit it too far back. Will it still die? Probably, but it's not pretty. Camera men on hunting TV shows know to quickly zoom waaaaaay out on hits like this so viewers don't see spinning and flopping. At the same time instant DRT's result it fist bumps and bada$$ that's how it's done comments.

A lot of people don't know where the vitals are on a coyote and will take offense to what I just said. They think they know, but they don't. Or they don't care. For example, if you regularly shoot coyotes in #6 (either intentionally or by accident), you're going to have regular spinners and runners.
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Or people can't make accurate shots with their gear. This last reason in particular is why so many thermal/night hunters step up to bigger calibers- to compensate for poor shot placement. There, I said another unpopular truth.

I don't see the lucky 7 shot square in the rear! One of my best parting shots at 250-300 yds with a 50 gr Accutip.
 
I like to shoot a lot of different rifles at coyote, call it experimenting.

As far as the 40gr Nosler BT, it has been my goto bullet for pelt hunting out of my 22-204 1-9 twist at 3900-4000fps and has done an outstanding job, zero splashes and no exits unless I'm close to the edges.

I tried the 55gr Sierra SP in my 22-250 and had huge exits and quit them after just a couple of coyotes wrecked.

The 50gr Nosler BT worked good out of my 223 with a mild load but had it rebarreled to 6x45 30 yrs ago and abandoned the 223 until last year. I use the Speer 52gr flatbase HP in it, jury is still out on that as I haven't killed a coyote with it yet.

I doubt that I will get any surprises with the Speer in the 223 as I shoot it in my 222 Rem(three different ones), my 5.6x50R Magnum and 22-250(two) both slow twists. The only splash has been this past fall at the convention, I killed a coyote at about 10 yards and hit it right on the point of the shoulder, it literally exploded the whole front shoulder and he was DRT. This bullet just seems to work for me.

The best bullets in the 6mm/243 cal., I shoot a 6x45mm and a 6mm-204 is the 58gr V-Max again stays in and doesn't splash but the max speed has been about 3600fps. The second successful bullet has been the 55gr Nosler Lead Free. I tried the 62gr Varmint Grenade but had huge exits, double softball sized.

So after 30 yrs of hunting coyotes my goto bullets in the .224 cartridges are the 40gr NBT in one rifle and the 52gr Speer in the rest.

The 6mm's get the 58gr V-max and the 55gr NBT Lead Free. I've pretty much abandoned the 6mm for coyote hunting and just rebarreld the 6mm-204 t0 20 Practical so now it is the .204 bullets I need to work with and will be starting with the 40gr Nosler BT.
 
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