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#3239535 - 03/25/20 11:38 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
SlickerThanSnot Offline
PM senior

Registered: 01/31/14
Posts: 5190
Loc: stuck in a fence
i reload for my savage and it will shoot very small groups with all the bullet weights. some a touch better than others, but all very good.

but the hornady factory loaded 25gr hp's shot extremely well. better than anything i have loaded so far.

btw, i have pulled bullets on those factory 25's and compared many powders to what they have in them and i swear it looks identical to 1680. but my 1680 loads with the same charge as factory ain't quite as accurate as factory. close but no bill clinton cigar. go figure.

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#3239545 - 03/26/20 08:46 AM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: SlickerThanSnot]
parson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/16/13
Posts: 416
Loc: North Dakota
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnot
i reload for my savage and it will shoot very small groups with all the bullet weights. some a touch better than others, but all very good.

but the hornady factory loaded 25gr hp's shot extremely well. better than anything i have loaded so far.

btw, i have pulled bullets on those factory 25's and compared many powders to what they have in them and i swear it looks identical to 1680. but my 1680 loads with the same charge as factory ain't quite as accurate as factory. close but no bill clinton cigar. go figure.


My dealer doesnít have the factory 25ís, but havenít given up yet

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#3239555 - 03/26/20 10:41 AM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
Winny Fan Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 08/12/11
Posts: 2121
Loc: Central Texas
Just a few thoughts and maybe I'm repeating what you have already looked at: These re 1-9" twist barrels so longer heavier ballistic tip bullets might be marginal in some barrels.

1. The obvious; does the barrel look ok for rifling? I haven't played with my rife but how long is the throat in your rifle if you can measure it? Bullet jump? Does the barrel seem smooth with a fairly tight patch? Any loose or tight spots?

2. Are primer strikes centered well on the primers which would indicate a well cut/centered chamber? If not, it may well be a barrel problem. Some rifles shoot just fine with off-centered primer strikes and possible mis-aligned chambers, but its something to look at.

3. If I couldn't get the rifle to shoot factory ammo, I think I'd try to stick with the lighter and shorter bullets first that are available for hand loading and crank the loads up as much as is safely possible without exceeding any published max powder charges and play a bit with seating depth.

This is a small case and velocity might be a factor so I would definitely stick with 0.1 grain powder increments. As always work up the loads in a safe manner. Do you have a chrony to assist with load development?

4. I mentioned throat length above, so that if you plan to shoot the rifle as a repeater, seating depth is controlled by the magazine, but I would definitely play with seating depth a bit. Will it shoot better lightly touching or off the lands?

After reading this, I sure wish I could get out and shoot mine. The most local to me range is closed until April 3rd due to this pandemic issue. The owner has an older parent living in his home and apparently decided to err on the safe side as far as exposure to other people goes. Not sure why but it is what it is and I'm trying to stay close to home too. Everyone seems to be holding in place near where I live......

_________________________
I guess I stayed at the party longer than someone's self-imposed curfew for me allowed....?

Some people think that they are quoting Einstein when in fact they are saying something that would make even Einstein say, "HUH?".

Ain't that right, Bill?

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#3239570 - 03/26/20 12:44 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: Winny Fan]
parson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/16/13
Posts: 416
Loc: North Dakota
Originally Posted By: Winny Fan
Just a few thoughts and maybe I'm repeating what you have already looked at: These re 1-9" twist barrels so longer heavier ballistic tip bullets might be marginal in some barrels.

1. The obvious; does the barrel look ok for rifling? I haven't played with my rife but how long is the throat in your rifle if you can measure it? Bullet jump? Does the barrel seem smooth with a fairly tight patch? Any loose or tight spots?

2. Are primer strikes centered well on the primers which would indicate a well cut/centered chamber? If not, it may well be a barrel problem. Some rifles shoot just fine with off-centered primer strikes and possible mis-aligned chambers, but its something to look at.

3. If I couldn't get the rifle to shoot factory ammo, I think I'd try to stick with the lighter and shorter bullets first that are available for hand loading and crank the loads up as much as is safely possible without exceeding any published max powder charges and play a bit with seating depth.

This is a small case and velocity might be a factor so I would definitely stick with 0.1 grain powder increments. As always work up the loads in a safe manner. Do you have a chrony to assist with load development?

4. I mentioned throat length above, so that if you plan to shoot the rifle as a repeater, seating depth is controlled by the magazine, but I would definitely play with seating depth a bit. Will it shoot better lightly touching or off the lands?

After reading this, I sure wish I could get out and shoot mine. The most local to me range is closed until April 3rd due to this pandemic issue. The owner has an older parent living in his home and apparently decided to err on the safe side as far as exposure to other people goes. Not sure why but it is what it is and I'm trying to stay close to home too. Everyone seems to be holding in place near where I live......



I no longer have the tools to tell you exactly to the thousands what the throat is but those 25 gr Hornady match when seated to recommended overall length are right up against the rifling

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#3239580 - 03/26/20 02:45 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13799
Loc: okla
Might be apples and oranges seeing how my Ruger is a 22 K-Hornet but very soon after I got it I had it bumped to a K, then I floated the barrel. I also ordered a spring for the trigger and a shim kit for the bolt from MCarbo (cheap). I watched a video from Cavedweller on how to bed the 77/22 Hornet, they are a little different. After all this, my little Ruger shoots very well. On a side note, mine doesn't care for the bullet kissing the rifleing. My bullets are set to fit the mag. I took it out this morning and with a 40 grain Sierra HP, 13.5 grains of LilGun and a 6 1/2 primer, it shot 5 at 100yds just over a half inch and there was a 10-15 MPH cross wind. Stretched it out to 200 and results weren't so good. Kinda sucked actually. Like I said, maybe apples and oranges.

You might try different bullets and powders and OAL before giving up. They all are different in what they like to shoot. I should also add, the more rounds I get through it the better it seems to shoot. Mine has less than 200 rounds fired.


Edited by pyscodog (03/26/20 02:47 PM)
_________________________


Stay away from negative people, they have a problem for every solution.

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#3239588 - 03/26/20 04:38 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
Samsquanch Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/04/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Colorado
I have not been around any hornets Ruger has made but Late this last winter i bought a CZ 17 hornet that is most definitely a tack driver! I'm sure there is always going to be a lemon out there but I don't think a guy can go wrong with such a neat little caliber. I bought mine to primarily use as a calling gun for coyote, bobbers and fox here in southeastern Colorado. I was very impressed with how my boys' hmr and wsm performed on coyotes but wanted something with just a bit more speed and so far have not been disappointed.
_________________________
Take a kid hunting!

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#3239589 - 03/26/20 05:09 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
Winny Fan Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 08/12/11
Posts: 2121
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: parson

I no longer have the tools to tell you exactly to the thousands what the throat is but those 25 gr Hornady match when seated to recommended overall length are right up against the rifling


If you think that you are at or very close to the lands with factory ammo, if/when you reload them you might try seating bullets just a bit deeper. And as I stated earlier, 25 grain ballistic tipped bullets might be marginal in your 9" twist barrel at Hornet velocities. Hornady no longer makes the 25 grain HP bullet but you might try to find a few to see if they shoot better if you want to stick with 25 grain bullets as the HP bullets are shorter.

If my rifle is recalcitrant when I finally get it out to shoot, I know for a fact that I will start with lighter/shorter bullets and work with seating depth as a huge part of the solution with hand loads.

Contrary to what you might read, not all rifles and cartridges perform best with bullets near or touching the lands. Roy Weatherby made a literal fortune using considerable bullet jump in his barrel/cartridge designs to produce some very accurate high velocity rifles. The far more modern 204 Ruger is another cartridge that thrives on bullet jump.

As psycho stated, some rifles take a couple of hundred bullets down the barrel until everything starts to settle in. I have a Kimber Classic in 7MM-08 that would not shoot anything for several months after I got it. Finally after maybe 300+ rounds down the barrel with a bunch of different load combinations, it suddenly started shooting extremely well. Now it shoots anything I've tried since then in the way of different loads and bullets in the 130-140 grain range. Maybe just shooting it more will help with accuracy.

And you can always spring for the shim kits since the bolt is a rear locking type of bolt. I've never tried any of them, but some people claim to get better results with them.

I hope you find something that works.
_________________________
I guess I stayed at the party longer than someone's self-imposed curfew for me allowed....?

Some people think that they are quoting Einstein when in fact they are saying something that would make even Einstein say, "HUH?".

Ain't that right, Bill?

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#3239590 - 03/26/20 05:50 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13799
Loc: okla
I don't know if the shims made a difference but they came in a kit with the lighter trigger springs so I used them. Figure it didn't hurt anything.It did take some of the slop out of the two piece bolt and made a somewhat tighter bolt close. I'd still like a little lighter trigger but the spring kit helped a lot.

Question?? Could the shorter barrel have any effect on accuracy?
_________________________


Stay away from negative people, they have a problem for every solution.

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#3239593 - 03/26/20 06:29 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: SlickerThanSnot]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3249
Loc: Buffalo, MN
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnot
Originally Posted By: parson
one of strangest things about mine that I have experienced in my over 60 years of shooting experience is that it shot 7/8 in. at 100 and did the same 7/8 at 200. I know the physics says that canít be, but I shot enough groups to know thatís exactly what it would/could do time and time again.


you think that is strange, i have read (and some of those readings have been right here on this board) of rifles that shoot 1" at a 100yds and 1/2" or 1/4" at 200 yards.

sometimes even swearing that the rifle shoots smaller groups at 300 than 100.

maybe i have been unlucky in 50 years of shooting rifles, but i never had one that would do that kinda voodoo magic. scared


I remember when I first started reloading and shooting in rifle competitions and there was plenty of talk like that. I think most the claims came from the tangent ogive VLD long boat tail type bullets "settling down" after a couple hundred yards... I dont know if I understand it or have seen it but I've heard it.


Originally Posted By: pyscodog


Question?? Could the shorter barrel have any effect on accuracy?


In theory a shorter barrel should give less flex and be more accurate, or course there's lots of variables but all things equal a shorter barrel should flex and vibrate less and be more accurate.

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#3239594 - 03/26/20 06:43 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13799
Loc: okla
I've heard the same on both your replies. I did shorten a barrel on a Stevens 200 and I can say it did improve accuracy. As far as bullets "settling down"......Not sure I am buying that but I to have heard it. I can't say one way or another.
_________________________


Stay away from negative people, they have a problem for every solution.

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#3239595 - 03/26/20 06:54 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
B23 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 2149
Loc: Pacific NW
Originally Posted By: parson
Originally Posted By: B23
Originally Posted By: parson

also need to pattern my turkey gun


Boy won't you be pizzed if your turkey gun ends up shooting tighter than your Ruger 17 Hornet. scared




Good point


Hopefully you know I was just kidding with you, certainly wasn't trying to add insult to injury.

At one time or another, if you play this game long enough, you're going to get a stinker and the odds are against you even further with factory guns.

The worst shooting POS I've ever owned was a beautiful Weatherby MkV Deluxe 7mm Wby mag. No matter what I tried or did, if I could get it to shoot 1.5in groups at 100, it was a very good day, because most of the time it was 1.5-2.5+ inch groups. It sure was a pretty thing, but good lord were the groups ugly.

There is absolutely, NOTHING, fun about having a gun that just won't shoot!


Edited by B23 (03/26/20 06:56 PM)

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#3239598 - 03/26/20 07:27 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
Winny Fan Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 08/12/11
Posts: 2121
Loc: Central Texas
Over the years there have been a lot of "studies" about barrel length versus accuracy, and most conclude that nothing is written in concrete other than barrel length affects velocity.

Physics says the harmonics of a shorter barrel should be more accurate, but it doesn't always work that way in reality. Take for example, you shorten a barrel and re-crown it with a better crown than it had before. It likely will shoot better. Conversely, if the crown is not as good as the longer barrel had it likely wont shoot as well. Variables.........

All things being equal with a 24" and an 18" barrel of similar profiles with equally as good crowns, there will probably be no real observable difference in accuracy due to barrel length alone. But other variables such as how the same load shoots in the two barrels might affect one versus the other in terms of accuracy. Choose a different powder with a different burn rate and the results might swap. More Variables............

Lots of variables at play to call shortening a barrel a "science" for improved accuracy. In my experience I've never had a factory barrel shoot less accurately after a good smith has cut it and re-crowned it. Factory barrel versus a modified factory barrel with a likely better crown.
_________________________
I guess I stayed at the party longer than someone's self-imposed curfew for me allowed....?

Some people think that they are quoting Einstein when in fact they are saying something that would make even Einstein say, "HUH?".

Ain't that right, Bill?

Top
#3239600 - 03/26/20 07:56 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3249
Loc: Buffalo, MN
I agree, I dont think a shorter barrel will shrink groups in the long run. I think the added velocity alone fights enough wind changes to make the harmonics irrelevant. It can be said a longer barrel keeps the bullet in the gun longer and any flinching or shooter error can be shown more... but again, an added 100fps or so can iron out some problems.

I've also seen shorter barrels shoot slow powders and light bullets really poor. I think if you aren't getting a very good burn in the barrel all those still burning gasses can effect the bullet just after it leaves the muzzle. Purely speculation but I know when watching slow motion video of a bullet leaving a muzzle theres always gasses that reach out past the bullet right at the muzzle, I have wondered if those gasses are still combusting heavily, now around and in front of the bullet if that cant throw things off.


But then again theres guys out there shooting 7mm mag from a 10 inch pistol barrel and getting good groups at 1000 yards... so that powder burn idea is probably crap, unless the muzzle brakes help with all the extra burning gasses effecting the bullet. Just thinking out loud.


Edited by Rock Knocker (03/26/20 08:03 PM)

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#3239603 - 03/26/20 08:35 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: Rock Knocker]
parson Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/16/13
Posts: 416
Loc: North Dakota
Cleaned it super clean as it seems to foul prematurely, put on a different scope, a vx3 - 4.5x14. Shot five 5 shot groups on a beautiful still day. I give up, itís going back to Ruger. Averaged about 3 in. with Hornady factory loaded 20 gr. with and without the can, makes little or no difference


Edited by parson (03/26/20 08:36 PM)

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#3239615 - 03/26/20 10:20 PM Re: Ruger 17 Hornet [Re: parson]
B23 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 2149
Loc: Pacific NW
Originally Posted By: parson
Cleaned it super clean as it seems to foul prematurely, put on a different scope, a vx3 - 4.5x14. Shot five 5 shot groups on a beautiful still day. I give up, itís going back to Ruger. Averaged about 3 in. with Hornady factory loaded 20 gr. with and without the can, makes little or no difference


Does it just kind of throw them all over the target or is there any kind of pattern to it?

Unfortunately, Ruger isn't particularly well known for having great barrels so hopefully they replace the barrel at the least, if not the whole gun, and whatever you get back shoots much better for you.

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