Having problems bumping the shoulder back!

G

gpjohnson

New member
I am fairly new to reloading and I am having difficulty bumping the shoulder back on my brass on different calibers that I shoot. My primary problems are with 22-250, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, and 7mm Weatherby Mag. The problem I’m having is that the shoulder actually grows aprox .001 to .002 after full length resizing. It is actually longer after resizing than before. I am using a new MEC Marksman Press, RCBS F/L Dies and shell holders and the Hornady Headspace Comparator Gage. I am only looking to bump the shoulders back .001 to .002 from the average of fired brass. I set up my dies all the same by placing the shell holder in the ram, move the ram to the up position, then screw the die down until it touches the shell holder. Resize a piece of brass and check the headspace and I also use a case gage. I adjust or turn the die down a 1/16 to 1/8 turn in an attempt to achieve the results I desire. I do not know what else to do differently?
Thanks for your suggestions.

Gil
 
It's normal for brass to come out of a FL die longer, as you're describing, until you have the FL die screwed down far enough for the shoulder to come in contact with the die. You need to continue screwing the die in until it starts to push the should back the desired amount you are looking for. It generally takes the FL die being screwed in past, just contacting the shell holder, before you reach push back on the shoulder. I can't think of any FL die that I have that doesn't require the die being screwed down to where I have a little cam over on my press.
 
The big question does your sized brass chamber easily? If so you don't want to set the shoulder back anymore.

To have the same problem with all your brass it sounds like you are having a set up problem somewhere.

You can black the shoulder of your brass and see if it is actually is hitting the top of the die.
 
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It's your technique. Screw your die down further. Use fired brass to make the final adjustments (vs re-sizing the same piece over and over to adjust and measure).

Read up on it, there's tons of articles and videos out there.
 
The comparator is not the best way to measure how much you are moving the shoulder of the case. Because you may be making a slight change in the angle of the case which will alter the comparator contact location. As stated don't move shoulder on the case unless it takes to much pressure to close the bolt. Hunting rifle bolts should have little to no pressure to close. I pull the firing pin/spring when adjusting die and testing brass fit. I use the comparator to measure the brass after getting proper fit, then record that to speed up setting die the next time. Also pull the expander/decapper when adjusting the sizing die. With Belted mag brass you may only get a couple reloads, setting die off the shoulder. There are special collet die for getting max life from belted mag brass.
 
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Just a side note,

never "cam over" unless you have an RCBS Rock Chucker. There is a large difference in taking any and all slack out of the shell holder assembly and caming over. Once you have full shell/die contact the only thing that will give is your reloading press.

Make sure you are sizing with plenty of lube on the case, and inside the case mouth. It should be butter smooth without twanging noises, and stiff jabs to break things free.

If you have your die set up, to set back the shoulder on your 22-250 cases 0.02 on one time fired brass.... By the third firing it may not set it back at all. This is because the brass gets work hardened and "springs back" You will need to keep adjusting the die down as the firings continue.

New cases are butter, by the 4th fire they are resisting sizing sometimes. (many factors to this)

When i set up a die i pull the expander out and bump the shoulder without the expander ball. This way you can size and measure multiple times with out work hardening your case neck.

When you are all set, and have the correct adjustment, install your expander ball and run it up through. Make sure the case mouth has a lot of lube.

Sometimes you need to grind down a die. There is enough variance in brands of shell holders that i will normally just try that first. I have so many laying around.

You are on the right track. Don't give up.

If you don't have enough lube in the case mouth, when you come down on your press, the expander ball will pull and tug on the neck and make it grow.

If your expander ball is not perfectly straight and centered you will be "throwing shots".

I use Hornady "one shot" in a well ventilated area as per the instructions and will never look back.
 
I have never ground down a die but I have taken

a few thousands off the shell holder.

I then marked that shell holder with wifes

nail polish and I keep it in that box of dies.
 
Originally Posted By: who meI have never ground down a die but I have taken

a few thousands off the shell holder.

I then marked that shell holder with wifes

nail polish and I keep it in that box of dies.


Yes, this works great.

*
 
Thank you all for your suggestions. On my 22-250 brass, the reason for the .002 bump is because I have two different rifles and the .002 would work in both rifles. I will try and black the shoulders and also pull the expander. I have not been lubing the case mouth but will start doing that also.
 
Originally Posted By: AWSIf your not lubing the case mouths the expander ball can drag and pull the shoulder back out.
Agree! Need more lube in Neck. I experienced the same thing on the 7mm Mag - more lube and the problem solved.
 
If you need to grind a shell holder do to a minimum chamber. An easy way to do a nice job is to place a sheet of 80-100 grit emery cloth on a flat surface, counter top, piece of thick glass or metal and work the top of the shell holder in a circular motion and keep you micrometer handy to make sure you are taking material off evenly. It is easy to thin the shell holder too much at the mouth as there it has less material.

I use a permanent marker to mark the ground shell holder. I mark the whole thing so you can tellit no mater what way it is laying.
 
Originally Posted By: AWSIf you need to grind a shell holder do to a minimum chamber. An easy way to do a nice job is to place a sheet of 80-100 grit emery cloth on a flat surface, counter top, piece of thick glass or metal and work the top of the shell holder in a circular motion and keep you micrometer handy to make sure you are taking material off evenly. It is easy to thin the shell holder too much at the mouth as there it has less material.

I use a permanent marker to mark the ground shell holder. I mark the whole thing so you can tellit no mater what way it is laying.

Thats the same way I did it,I might have used a finer grit.

It took me a while and I too checked with calipers to make

sure it was even.
 
You're looking for a way to resize a case to fit two different rifles. If possible, remove the firing pins from each rifle. This will allow you to get it perfect, as when you chamber the loaded round, you want the bolt to close with just a tad bit of effort - you don't want the bolt handle to just flop down. Once you have bumped the shoulder back allowing this, just replace the firing pin and you're good to go.

You can usually resize your brass to do this with the FL resizer by camming over a bit. If you can't for whatever reason, then invest around $35.00 an purchase a Redding body die in that caliber. That body die will resize your case, bump the should back without touching the case neck. It has to be properly adjusted, as you can ruin a case, by bumping that shoulder way too far back.

The way some people size using the body die is by running the case 1st through a neck sizing die and then through the body die - a FL die first will also work - just make sure the case is properly lubed for the body die.
 
Thank you all for the suggestions, they are greatly appreciated. I should have time today to go to the reloading bench and put to use all of these recommendations.

Gil
 
I have a hard time with this caming over term.

The shell holder has already hit the die.

What are we compressing, squeezing the slack
out of the joints of the pivots points and
flexing the frames of our press?

I'm getting proper sizing on everything with not
having to screw the die in after touching the die.

Some I can see a little sliver of light between
the shell holder and die.

I did use the shell holder that I sanded down with
a couple sets of dies

I have no custom barrel/chambers, so maybe most are
on the generous side.

Do most of you have to cam over to get proper sizing?

Hope this doesn't sound like a rant, maybe to much coffee?
 
When you cam over you flex your cast iron made press. It is a very fine line between taking all the slack up, and caming over.

Taking all the slack up gives you another thousanth. Caming over does nothing but flex your press. I cringe at the thought.
 
Originally Posted By: who meI have a hard time with this caming over term.

The shell holder has already hit the die.

What are we compressing, squeezing the slack
out of the joints of the pivots points and
flexing the frames of our press?

I'm getting proper sizing on everything with not
having to screw the die in after touching the die.

Some I can see a little sliver of light between
the shell holder and die.

I did use the shell holder that I sanded down with
a couple sets of dies

I have no custom barrel/chambers, so maybe most are
on the generous side.

Do most of you have to cam over to get proper sizing?

Hope this doesn't sound like a rant, maybe to much coffee?


I'm in total agreement with you. I fail to see how if the shell holder is in hard contact with the die turning it in even further will alter the sizing. All I see coming out of that is stressing the press and doing nothing. If the cam over involves pushing the case up in the die and then as you move the handle further it withdraws the case and then as you raise the arm you shove the case back up in the die what do you accomplish?

I too have no issues with not having the shell holder hard against the die. Loading hundreds or Grendel and Grendel based wildcats using Bedding 6 PPC dies that are a full 0.100 off the shell holder has not resulted with any issues. The very bottom of the case does not swell directly above the extractor grove and the die does quite well getting everything back down for proper chambering.

The 22-NXS is held off the shell holder a good distance and after loading some of these close to ten times no chambering problems have occurred. That pretty well means, to me, that it is an old wives tale that the shell holder and die must be solid against each other.

I use three shell holders for common sized bolt faces in 223, 6.8, 6.5 Grendel and 308 that have all been ground 0.020 + or - that cover most of my needs. While the thickness of the shell holders may meet industry standards it does not guarantee that the shelf that the case head sets on is always the same from the base to the exposed area for sizing. Tolerance stacking comes into play and even using the same same die/shell holder combination is no guarantee that everything will be copacetic.

Greg

Greg
 
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