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#3229259 - 01/20/20 05:23 PM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: Hellgate]
K-22hornet. Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 1579
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Hellgate
K22 and Snomanmo, what weight V-max and which caliber were you having runners? The 40-50gr Vmax (especially from a 22-250) is a way different behaving bullet than a 60gr Vmax from a 223. I'm of the opinion that the 55gr and under Vmaxs are better suited to rodents but the 60gr is great for coyotes. It is not fur friendly and broadside hits let in a lot of cold air from a 223.


I used the 40,50 and 55gr Vmax out of a 223 and 222Remmag. My son uses the 60gr Vmax in his 223wssm.

The higher velocity of the wssm seems to shred the Vmax, and he gets a fair amount of splashes, but, so far, only one coyote has gone over 20yds hit with that combo (out of dozens). The higher velocity, about 3,700+fps, hits them very hard, even if it splashes.

We had one trying to get downwind of us, and I got it stopped broadside, about 180yds out. I'm watching through my bino as he shoots. We heard the bullet "Whap' and the coyote drops. Fractions of a second later,still looking through the bino, I see this brown thing fall out of the sky by the coyote. We get over to the coyote, and find the 'brown thing' was about a 6" section of the pelt, from just behinc the shoulder blades. Man, I wish I had that on camera, lol.
_________________________
Liberals are the most highly educated, stupid people I've ever met!

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#3229275 - 01/20/20 07:04 PM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: Hellgate]
SnowmanMo Offline
Director/Moderator

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 3455
Loc: Phoenix, Az
Originally Posted By: Hellgate
K22 and Snomanmo, what weight V-max and which caliber were you having runners? The 40-50gr Vmax (especially from a 22-250) is a way different behaving bullet than a 60gr Vmax from a 223. I'm of the opinion that the 55gr and under Vmaxs are better suited to rodents but the 60gr is great for coyotes. It is not fur friendly and broadside hits let in a lot of cold air from a 223.


They were 55gr. I switched over to either 60gr SP's in my .223 or 45gr SP's in my .204 and the runners stopped. I might agree with you about the 55gr for varmints, but it sure seems odd that for a while they worked great but now they are not. So something changed.

I will definitely give those 60gr Vmax's a try.
_________________________


Mama always said, coyotes are like a box of chocolates...



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#3229290 - 01/20/20 08:48 PM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: isu22yote]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3183
Loc: Buffalo, MN
Varmint bullets are made to blow up little varmints like chucks and prairie dogs that weigh a couple pounds, they're poor on coyotes unless you get perfect shots and dont hit bone. If you're trying to hit shoulder blades with a vmax you're not going to have a good time, a SP would be much better.

I gave up on vmaxs and a handful of other soft and weak bullets, switched to 65SGK soft points with max charge of powder and have had less runners and pelt damage is almost nonexistent.

I just started playing around with 53gr TSX and getting decent accuracy and high velocities, I haven't taken them out hunting yet but I'm getting the speeds of a small varmint bullet but I expect they will be able to handle bones, unlike the varmint bulllets.

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#3229294 - 01/20/20 09:13 PM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: Yotarunner]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3183
Loc: Buffalo, MN
Originally Posted By: Yotarunner
just curious what you guys consider to be "runners" i have plenty of coyotes that have run 10-30 yards and piled up dead and i do not consider that bullet failure. dont get me wrong the ideal situation is to have the big baseball bat against a pillow sound and the coyote piling up in his tracks but in a creature of varying size and disposition this isnt always the case.
like all game animals no 2 creatures are alike. just like a deer or elk will pile up with a perfect shot one year then run 100 yards the next year with the same bullet and shot placement.
i have never dissected one to prove my theory right or wrong but my theory is this.
the DRT shot that puts a coyote on the ground is caused by the bullet causing such shock that it overloads the nervous system and shuts it down right where it stands. the ones that run 30 yards are coyotes that are tough enough to overcome this initial shock but die from internal bleeding and "loss of oil pressure" as my friend puts it.
not sure if this is the case in your situation but figured id throw out my 2 cents to ponder on.


I've voiced my opinion of the DRT histaria before, I dont understand it, especially when the road to DRT is riddled with pelt damage, inconsistentcies and inhumane kills.

I think it's a fad, I hope it's a fad. The marketing for sexy looking pointy plastic tip bullets flying at chrono melting speeds will fizzle along with their performance.

I have no problems walking another 30 yards to pick up a coyote when the bullet does what I expect it to do. DRT is neat, but not by a long shot as neat as pelt damage and wounded escaped coyotes are completely frustrating and unacceptable.

As far as I know with how an animal hit in the chest dies in its tracks has to do with a huge spike in blood pressure transfering to the brain and causing instant aneurysms or strokes throughout the brain.

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#3229301 - 01/20/20 09:42 PM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: isu22yote]
shanedogg Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1634
Loc: arizona
I may not be vetted on here as far as harvest counts, and thats fine. I will not claim to not have had predators run off or not be anchored, because will happen, no matter the caliber, no matter the distance, I'm convinced of that. I've witnessed yotes try to run, and make it 80+yrds, with no brisket, no ability to control their front legs... yes...they ran on their hind legs... We have tried many different shotgun loads, starting with all your fancy T shot and BB's and tungsten this and that. As well as all different leads from different manufactures. REMINGTON, #4 BUCK, 3", NOT 3 1/2", 3" is the most lethal, with any choke,standard 3-4 that come with interchangeable, to fixed old and new modified/fulls, to just about everything threaded for Benelli/Berretta,turkey this/that full, extra, improved, etc, load to 70yrds. Now for .224... .223/.22-250, bolts and autos, factory, and many, many handloads....55 G NOSLER BALLISTIC TIP. Not 60, 69, 50, 45, ...55GRAIN! Second to 55 G Sierra Blitzking. I feel that we have thoroughly tested all available to us, and there will never be a replacement for shot placement as well as presentable shot for placement. These are the hammers as we know it. I feel Remington will replace that buck load with something different. Stock up!
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c'mon! Just one more stand!

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#3229306 - 01/20/20 10:21 PM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: Rock Knocker]
DiRTY DOG Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 2717
Loc: West
Originally Posted By: Rock Knocker

I've voiced my opinion of the DRT histaria before, I dont understand it, especially when the road to DRT is riddled with pelt damage, inconsistentcies and inhumane kills.
Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't do it.

It's mostly about shot placement, maybe you can't do that either? A lot of people can't.

If you are getting regular and consistent 30-yard runners, your shot placement sucks. That's my opinion.
_________________________
Aim small miss small.

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#3229356 - 01/21/20 09:26 AM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: isu22yote]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3183
Loc: Buffalo, MN
I get DRT a lot of the time, varmint bullets or 65gr SGK, in fact I've had more drop in their tracks from the 65gr. It wasnt until I gave up on the internet's idea of a good coyote kill(DRT) and instead focused on using bullets that work in ALL conditions that I got more DRT and less pelt damage. I just dont find any benefit in DRT, it's not something I am focused on, it just happens.

The difference is when you have a varmint bullet and they DONT drop in their tracks you have a mess on your hands(sometimes a mess even with DRT) or a lost dog. With 65 SGK they ether drop in their tracks or never seen one one make it past 40 yards or any pelt damage. Throw in the huge amount of damage that the varmint bullets do to fox and bobcat if they're in the area, 65gr drop them on the spot without any damage.

You're out west probably watching stupid dogs come in for minutes and picking when you want to shoot. Here you have seconds and the coyotes dont let you chose the shots, its lucky just to get them to stop moving with a bark.

People get DRT kills on deer with 22lr... doesnt mean it's the best choice..... just because a bullet works under perfect conditions doesnt make it a GOOD bullet.

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#3229361 - 01/21/20 09:53 AM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: isu22yote]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3183
Loc: Buffalo, MN
I'm curious, maybe a poll could be made.

How many here that swear to ballistic tip varmint bullets have only hunted with ballistic tip varmint bullets? And how many that have tried both soft points and varmint bullets ended up going back to the ballistic tips?

I cant remember hearing of someone trying soft point then going back saying the varmint bullets were better.

I'm also coming at this debate only speaking of my experiences with 223... 6mms and longer barreled 22-250s or swifts is a different animal when it comes to bullet selection. But even when it comes to higher velocity .224 cartridges, with my 16" 223 I've had to add less powder to the cases to decrease damage from blow outs with 52 and 53gr bullets so......

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#3229371 - 01/21/20 10:54 AM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: isu22yote]
Hellgate Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 355
Loc: Orygun
Rock Knocker,
In What caliber are you using the 65gr SGK?
_________________________
The AR-15= BARBIE for men

With over 15 percussion revolvers I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap & Ball

If you do not subscribe to a newspaper you are uninformed. If you do subscribe to a newspaper you are misinformed. Mark Twain

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#3229372 - 01/21/20 11:00 AM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: isu22yote]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3183
Loc: Buffalo, MN
223 16" BHW barrel 27.74gr CFE223 around 3130fps.

People act like the 65SGK is a hard cast lead slug or something. The gel tests I've seen show so much fragmentation and expansion that the big 65gr bullets fail the FBIs required 16" of penetration, they dump a lot of energy and plow through what's in the way to deliver that energy.

I heard one person say " 65SGK is a big game bullet!" Like the 223 was ever a big game cartridge?

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#3229378 - 01/21/20 11:33 AM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: isu22yote]
Hellgate Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 355
Loc: Orygun
Rock Knocker,
I have suspected the 65gr SGK is softer than expected when I hit a few ground squirrels with it and they were not fur friendly. What is the twist on your barrel? Mine was a 1:9.
_________________________
The AR-15= BARBIE for men

With over 15 percussion revolvers I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap & Ball

If you do not subscribe to a newspaper you are uninformed. If you do subscribe to a newspaper you are misinformed. Mark Twain

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#3229380 - 01/21/20 11:35 AM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: Rock Knocker]
SnowmanMo Offline
Director/Moderator

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 3455
Loc: Phoenix, Az
Originally Posted By: Rock Knocker
I'm curious, maybe a poll could be made.

How many here that swear to ballistic tip varmint bullets have only hunted with ballistic tip varmint bullets? And how many that have tried both soft points and varmint bullets ended up going back to the ballistic tips?

I cant remember hearing of someone trying soft point then going back saying the varmint bullets were better.

I'm also coming at this debate only speaking of my experiences with 223... 6mms and longer barreled 22-250s or swifts is a different animal when it comes to bullet selection. But even when it comes to higher velocity .224 cartridges, with my 16" 223 I've had to add less powder to the cases to decrease damage from blow outs with 52 and 53gr bullets so......


I think that you bring up a good point. I have done the Poly tip-SP-Poly tip in the 6.5 Grendel. I started with SST's then switched over to SP's and decided that the SST's performed better in terms of delivering energy when hitting a coyote. So I stick with them. I initially went away from them due to the accuracy of the SP's being better.

I am currently trying a new Hornady Poly tipped bullet in .223 and hope to have something to share on the results soon. It might be another situation where I switch back if the poly performs as advertised.
_________________________


Mama always said, coyotes are like a box of chocolates...



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#3229405 - 01/21/20 01:05 PM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: Hellgate]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3183
Loc: Buffalo, MN
Originally Posted By: Hellgate
Rock Knocker,
I have suspected the 65gr SGK is softer than expected when I hit a few ground squirrels with it and they were not fur friendly. What is the twist on your barrel? Mine was a 1:9.


Mine is a 1-8. Sierra says they're good up to 1-10.

My confusion comes from my experience and from what I gather, others experience of trying to use varmint bullets in the 50-53gr range and having to tone the loads down to not get damage on good broadside shots. 53grs at 3100 to hope not to get blow outs on broadside shots but useless and still destructive on quartered forward or any shoulder shots. Meanwhile a 65 can be pushed to those speeds AND get you higher BC, go through any shot you're stuck with, save lots of fur and good on bobcat to whitetail, call me crazy.


Edited by Rock Knocker (01/22/20 09:05 AM)

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#3229435 - 01/21/20 05:49 PM Re: Another bullet thread [Re: isu22yote]
shanedogg Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1634
Loc: arizona
I thought we were talking terminal performance to eliminate "runners". If you are trying to negate pelt damage, do not follow a lick of advise in my post. Except for the shot shell loads, carry on.....
_________________________
c'mon! Just one more stand!

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