Night Goggles Inc

Predator Masters using UBB.threads ô Infopop Corporation.
PM Gear Moon & Weather

Welcome to the Predator Masters Forums
Be sure to visit the main Predator Master website at





PM Gear
PM Gear
PM Gear
The Official Predator Masters Search Engine
Search Predator Masters

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#3217762 - 11/10/19 07:59 AM Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon
Bowhntr6pt Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/09/13
Posts: 875
Loc: Central Florida
Well... after a couple range trips getting ready for hunting my Trail XP50 is once again shifting zero.

Back story... acquired it new Nov 2017 and immediately had the issue. Sent it back to Pulsar, and after about three weeks and some experimenting on their part, I got it back with a supposed clean bill of health.

The first couple range trips showed almost no POI change worth noting... I considered an inch or so ok. Fast forward through hunting times and I was killing what I was shooting at so really never benched the unit.

After April 2019 I noticed a shift of a couple inches but chalked it up to many days/night in the field and time... and it just being what it was.

Well staring in August 2019 I started making notes, and sure as crap it's still shifting, 2" and now over 3". The groups are good, just not where I'm aiming.

This am at 52-degrees, it's low 3 1/2" and left 2 1/4"... and that's after making an adjustment back in September where it was off low and right by 2".

So... it's off to see what Pulsar will do.

I'm asking for a completely new unit... this one has PROVEN to be unreliable... or a refund.

Based on previous contacts and dealings with Pulsar I expect to be made whole one way or the other.

Will update this when I hear from them.


Edited by Bowhntr6pt (11/10/19 08:00 AM)

Top
#3217768 - 11/10/19 09:03 AM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
Bowhntr6pt Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/09/13
Posts: 875
Loc: Central Florida
Target below shows prior zero was low/right. Made the correction. Today it's way low/left.



Made adjustments and back to zero. At least the unit responds. My friend and fellow ARFCOM'er was with me in March/April when I first started seeing the POI shifts again. His XP50 responded perfectly to the One-Shot Zero function, mine did not.



I'm going to start keeping better records to support my warranty claim against Pulsar... I hope I don't need to.


Edited by Bowhntr6pt (11/10/19 09:06 AM)

Top
#3217801 - 11/10/19 01:55 PM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
cmatera Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/15/08
Posts: 2273
Loc: CO
Sorry to hear your problem persists.

Top
#3217816 - 11/10/19 04:05 PM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
case-nh Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa
How much temperature differences are there between the POI checks?

Top
#3217831 - 11/10/19 06:30 PM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: case-nh]
Bowhntr6pt Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/09/13
Posts: 875
Loc: Central Florida
Originally Posted By: case-nh
How much temperature differences are there between the POI checks?


Last zero was 82 degrees, this am it was 52 degrees. But during the previous shift where I realized the problem was not solved thus I started a log, there was little to no difference.

Top
#3217850 - 11/10/19 08:25 PM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
6mm06 Offline
PM senior

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 8334
Loc: USA

Thatís why spending big wads of money is not prudent, at the moment at least. Hopefully Pulsar will find a way to correct these issues. Hopefully time and technology will at some point yield a scope that works as it should. I personally canít afford to be a guiney pig while the development is in process. My Apex XQ 38 has done quite well so far and for a lot less money than the Trails, but it too will drift somewhat after a period of time, just not as bad as what I read about the Trail models. Will be interesting to see how the Thermion scopes will do once they have been around for a while, but then even if they do well, Pulsar may up and discontinue them for some new whizbang.

Top
#3217853 - 11/10/19 08:48 PM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
cmatera Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/15/08
Posts: 2273
Loc: CO
Armasight was crap. They got in bed with FLIR. Pulsar was pretty good-until now. Trijicon hooked up with IRD. There are problems with all of them across the board. It obvious that the thermal industry has a lot of work to do to regarding quality/engineering to justify the prices they are asking for this stuff.

Top
#3217857 - 11/10/19 09:07 PM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: cmatera]
6mm06 Offline
PM senior

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 8334
Loc: USA

Originally Posted By: cmatera
It obvious that the thermal industry has a lot of work to do to regarding quality/engineering to justify the prices they are asking for this stuff.

I fully agree. Some will say the scopes are expensive to produce (lens) and they probably are, but at what point will hunters say enough, get it right and then we will buy. Buying a good scope for the prices we see is difficult enough for the average family man / gal, but paying these steep prices for stuff that doesnít work well is just pure folly. I hear some say ďyou get what you pay forĒ and maybe thatís true in some cases, but it doesnít seem to be with thermal unless you spend $10,000 + , but very few can do that.

It may sound like I am just being negative, but in truth I just want to see good products that make it worth a guyís hard earned money. I personally feel that the scopes are no where near the quality they should be, and basically hunters are being played while the companies experiment.


Top
#3217870 - 11/10/19 10:29 PM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: 6mm06]
old cat Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 1113
Loc: wv
How any of you leave your batteries in your scopes for days at a time?
Mine comes out after every hunt. No POI shift. You might want to try something different.


Edited by old cat (11/10/19 10:34 PM)

Top
#3217871 - 11/10/19 10:33 PM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: 6mm06]
case-nh Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa
Although I know these units are expensive I think we need to be realistic with them. This is a totally different ball game when it comes to shooting with these. Construction wise, there is hardly anything similar to the these except the lens and eye piece. Your looking at a non uniform body with the front and back screwed or bolted on and electronically run. I think the non uniform body allows for some POI issues with large changes in temperature would be something I am not surprised by. My XP50 has been great but I check mine when transitioning from summer to winter and have made changes. Once done it holds. I shot USPSA open class for decades and made summer to winter changes to my C-More red dot for POI shifts I'm sure due to it's construction. Maybe the Thermions with their uniform tube will be less prone to this but the Trail models with the longer battery is a good plus. What these scopes have allowed us to do in terms of hunting is fabulous and transitioning from your "normal" scopes to these I wonder if a guy doesn't need to look at this a little differently than thinking same/same. This is not apples to apples at all. I am just glad that Pulsar has been exceptional in customer service. If a guy wants more of the apples to apples he can hunt with the NV scopes (of which I have a D740) which has held POI through the seasons. Maybe Kirsch can weigh in on my thoughts if he reads this. I think he has a little as to customer service on the different companies.


Edited by case-nh (11/10/19 10:34 PM)

Top
#3217881 - 11/11/19 01:22 AM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: case-nh]
Kirsch Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 2192
Loc: North Dakota
Originally Posted By: case-NH
Maybe Kirsch can weigh in on my thoughts if he reads this. I think he has a little as to customer service on the different companies.
I can't speak to customer service with all the various thermal companies but have dealt with Sellmark/Sightmark, Flir, and Bering Optics.

Flir: Flir had some major issues with service when they took on Armasight. I dealt with them right during this issue. They were still courteous and tried to help but turn around times on fixing thermals was very slow. However, most reports I have heard of recently leads me to believe their CS has improved dramatically and turn around times have gotten better. The hardest part of dealing with Flir CS is finding the right department and/or correct person. They have a very large company with many different products.

Pulsar: Pulsar runs CS for both Sightmark and Sellmark. Most of my dealings with their CS has been positive. Hopefully, the Thermion will take care of any future POI temp/shift issues.

Bering Optics: I have been testing various Bering Optics thermals. From everything I have seen from Bering Optics, they make very good entry-mid level thermals at reasonable prices. I will say reasonable from a thermal perspective. The thermals are assembled in TX, and they can service them as well, which is nice. Response time has been very good on emails and phone calls. If their scopes included onboard video recording, they would give my Flir PTS536 a run.

I have never owned a Trijicon product so have no experience with their service. Most comments I have heard say it is very good.

As far as comments from various posters, from my perspective, the benefits of thermal are worth any potential growing pains in the market. Have some manufacturers pushed products out too soon, with probably too many bugs, yes. However, there are more options at prices that more people can afford in the thermal world than ever before. Once night hunting opens in my state, my day hunting ends. Many believe it is due to a higher success ratio. In comparing my numbers, the difference isn't that huge. The main reason is there is something so addicting with seeing that white or black object stick out in total darkness, and respond to the call.

One other thought to keep in mind is spending more money (ie 10K as was mentioned) doesn't guarantee a thermal is going to be any more stable than a less expensive thermal. With the higher thermals, you are typically paying for a different thermal core (for instance BAE) and often a bigger Germanium lens. You may well get a clearer image but that doesn't mean things won't break. All companies have Customer Service departments for a reason including Trijicon and Nvision. Does buying a Ferrari vs a Mustang guarantee you won't have any car trouble?

_________________________
Korey Kirschenmann
Night Goggles - Pro Staff

Top
#3217885 - 11/11/19 02:01 AM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
6mm06 Offline
PM senior

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 8334
Loc: USA

Night vision in general is addicting, and thermal is just purely something to behold. It has indeed increased the predator count and hunting experience all around. I canít imagine being without it. I think we all can agree on that. On the flip side itís only reasonable to want a product to work as itís supposed to, especially when such large sums of money are involved. We all want to see it improve for the better, and surely it will as time goes on, but many of us donít have the financial resources to have to continue to lay down large sums while the product goes through these developmental stages.

I have heard ďby once cry onceĒ repeatedly here ever since I became a member, and maybe that statement is more true with traditional Gen 3 night vision. That canít be said with thermal, perhaps unless we are talking sums of money large enough to purchase a new car. At this time in history if I had $4,000 lying around that I didnít need , and if I wanted a thermal scope, I would not buy a Trail model scope because of the problems associated with it. Early on I most likely would have, and most likely I would be just as frustrated / sick as others are right now. But if the Apex models were still available, most likely I would purchase an XQ38 and save $1,500. That decision would be based on history, after the fact, but the Trail was the one pushed. Pulsar dropped the better scope it seems.

We shall see how well the Thermion performs, but also a sizeable portion of the population has been left out with this new model due to less field of view and eye relief unless they want to spend a larger sum for the 640 resolution models.


Top
#3217886 - 11/11/19 02:07 AM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: 6mm06]
Kirsch Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 2192
Loc: North Dakota
Originally Posted By: 6mm06
If I wanted a thermal scope, I would not buy a Trail model scope because of the problems with it. Early on I most likely would have, and most likely I would be just as frustrated as others are right now. But if the Apex models were still available, most likely I would purchase an XQ38 and save $1,500. Pulsar dropped the better scope.
You are not the only person that feels this way. However, many would argue the internal battery, recording features, and streamvision integration, makes the Trail and Thermion better. However, if a scope won't hold POI, those other features don't matter.

The typical price difference of the Apex XQ38 vs the Trail XQ38 and Thermion XM38 is/was around $800 but I still understand what you are saying.
_________________________
Korey Kirschenmann
Night Goggles - Pro Staff

Top
#3217888 - 11/11/19 02:21 AM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
6mm06 Offline
PM senior

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 8334
Loc: USA
Yeah, it is all in what a guy is willing to pay for. To me, spending $800 to stay in the same 384 resolution only to get battery and onboard recording was not worth it, but to others it was. I had the option at the time to go with a Trail and decided not to, and based that decision on that fact of not getting more resolution for $800. At this point, given the issues with the Trails, I am glad I didnít. If a 640 resolution was $800 more, I probably would have done that.

As to the Thermion, even if I had the money to spare, at this point I would not do it because itís too new and unproven.

If I could give Pulsar any advice, it would be to go back to the 17 pitch 384 resolution in at least one model, cheaper model, thereby including guys who hunt tighter quarters and who might be able to afford thermal in that category. But also, make sure the scopes function as they should, and donít release them until they do.



Edited by 6mm06 (11/11/19 02:49 AM)

Top
#3217896 - 11/11/19 07:59 AM Re: Pulsar Trail XP50 woes... I guess I spoke too soon [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
G Anderson Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 502
Loc: Clinton, Indiana
It appears to me that the most POI issues have been with the XP50...I know a lot of people running the XP38 and do not hear anything about POI issues. I run an XQ38 and have not had any POI issues...the only issue I have had with my XQ38 was when I did a Firmware update that was supposed to "enhance" image quality...my image actually got worse. Sent it in to Pulsar and it is fine now.
In my opinion, it seems to be more of an issue with the XP50 from what I have read and researched...I don't do "social media", so maybe I haven't heard everything either.
So I wouldn't necessarily lump all Trail models into having this problem. It has also been said that the newer XP50's do not seem to have this issue, so I think Pulsar has been addressing things fairly well.
I am very interested in the Thermion line and it seems that every vendor is backordered to the hilt with orders...so a lot of people must have gone this route and hopefully we can get some good field reports.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >



Moderator:  SkyPup 

© Predator Mastersô, All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.