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#3210815 - 08/24/19 10:04 PM 243 wssm fired case neck diameter?
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
I've been fighting a 243 wssm upper. New brass won't chamber, resize brass won't chamber, and fired brass doesn't like to extract. My fired case necks measure basically the same as reloaded case necks. Curious if someone could measure a piece of fired brass at the neck and get give me that dimension. Thanks!


Edited by varminter .223 (08/24/19 10:05 PM)

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#3210822 - 08/24/19 11:40 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
204 AR Online
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 4556
Loc: Nebraska
I measured a few, .290 to .291".

It sounds like your chamber is tight if new brass won't chamber. Who made the upper?
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#3210832 - 08/25/19 07:57 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
It's a Dtech. I sent it back to them and they claim they shot it and it functions perfect for them. I tried new Winchester brass and two different dies. I'm setting shoulder back enough and I've tried seating bullet deeper etc. If I do get one chambered it won't extract. The extractor rips past the case head and case remains stuck. My fired necks measure .283 to .284 ish. My loaded case measure the same.
Before sending it back to Mike I lightly polished the chamber since I kept seeing a scratch in the same location on a case gently placed in the chamber and tapped out with a cleaning rod. It worked for five or six rounds and went right back to the same thing. We are going to try some factory ammo next but fired cases measure like they should everywhere except at the necks. It seems like the neck portion of the chamber is tight in my opinion. The only other thing that makes sense to me is if the chamber is not concentric. Once the stuck brass is removed and you try to rechamber it it sticks again.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/25/19 08:48 AM)

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#3210857 - 08/25/19 12:19 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
jrnm Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 279
Loc: Clayton NM
I would send it back with some of your brass. Tell him to send you some of the brass or ammo he used if he says there is nothing wrong with it. That just isn't right. Mine will shoot new but the reloaded needs the sizing die set to cam over under pressure.

On another note, try a different shell holder, maybe even grind the top down on the one you have now, not all shell holders are the same and an extra thick one on the top can really cause issues. I would bet this would solve your problem. A good flat file will shave it down pretty quick and won't hurt the shell holder as long as you don't ruin the temper by getting it too hot by using a grinder.

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#3210867 - 08/25/19 02:13 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
204 AR Online
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 4556
Loc: Nebraska
That's weird. I take it you're measuring shoulder set back so you know it's ok for sure. I set these back more than other cases, I can't remember right now but considerably more than 3 or 4 thousandths for normal cases.

I wonder if Hornady brass has thinner necks? Maybe try turning one of yours?

My Dtech 243 wssm runs like a top, but I know the chamber is pretty big. Years ago I had a 25 wssm upper from Mike, and it did a lot of the stuff you're seeing. Very frustrating for sure. Nothing I tried would make it extract reliably. I have quite bit more knowledge now and wonder sometimes if I could make it work if I still had it. I was even turning necks and reaming donuts from fc brass I'd converted from 223 wssm. I finally gave up.
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#3210869 - 08/25/19 04:21 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: 204 AR]
hm1996 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 15219
Loc: S. Texas
The Dtech 243WSSM I just sold had 250-300 rounds through it and it never had a single malfunction w/factory or handloads (using some WW brass but mostly Fed.).

Regards,
hm
_________________________
If what's ahead scares you and what's behind hurts you, look up; He never fails you.

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#3210872 - 08/25/19 05:22 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
If I recall I was setting shoulders back as much as .010". That was as much Cam over as I could really do sensibly. The odd part is after you get a case in it and fire it it's just stuck in there period and the bolt has to be driven back with a small hammer and a plastic punch. This Winchester brass is the only brass I have here at the moment. The gun actually belongs to my hunting partner so I'm going to wait for him to get some factory rounds just to test it. I don't have a means of turning the neck but I had considered that last night just to see if it would chamber. I took all kinds of measurements last night but the problem is I don't have anything to compare it to. We have over a thousand rounds of this brass and it hasn't done as much good so far LOL. Bear in mind the factory cases before we resize them don't function either.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/25/19 05:27 PM)

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#3210882 - 08/25/19 06:59 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
hm1996 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 15219
Loc: S. Texas
Originally Posted By: varminter .223
I've been fighting a 243 wssm upper. New brass won't chamber, resize brass won't chamber, and fired brass doesn't like to extract. My fired case necks measure basically the same as reloaded case necks. Curious if someone could measure a piece of fired brass at the neck and get give me that dimension. Thanks!


I do not have any fired brass left to measure but a new, unfired FC neck measures .2815 and a dummy round w/bullet seated made from a fired FC case measures .282 (both chambered in my rifle easily).

Have you tried painting a case with sight black or a black marker then break the rifle open and chamber round by hand until it begins to feel snug; remove and see where the friction is just for kicks?

Regards,
hm
_________________________
If what's ahead scares you and what's behind hurts you, look up; He never fails you.

If My people will humble themselves, pray, seek My face & turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven & will forgive their sin & heal their land.




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#3210887 - 08/25/19 08:06 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
I'm not sure what I all did last winter when I was messing with it but I messed with it until I had had enough and we sent it back to him. It took him a few months to look at it and he said all he did was cleaned it and shot it and then sent it back. I asked him if he tried to chamber a round before he cleaned it and I never got a straight answer. When I got it back from him I never even took it out of the box for a couple months. We got it out last night and it's the same thing so I said screw it let's get some Factory ammo.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/25/19 08:09 PM)

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#3210892 - 08/25/19 09:37 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
bird dog 3 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 719
Loc: USA
Not sure what the problem is but if you want to send me two cases that you have prepped and ready to load that won't work in your Dtech mail them to me and I will try them in my Detech to see if they will hand cycle in my Dtech. PM me if you are interested in going that route. I have not had a problem with my 243 Dtech cycling.


Edited by bird dog 3 (08/25/19 09:39 PM)
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#3210894 - 08/25/19 09:41 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
spotstalkshoot Online
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 12/22/13
Posts: 1477
Loc: so.mn
If new brass won't chamber and brass you sized won't chamber, what have you fired that will not eject or extract? If it is factory rounds you fired( probably what dtech tried) you have everything you need to find the fit problem(factory, factory once fired and all your other brass).

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#3210910 - 08/26/19 07:49 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
What we have fired were rounds that we had loaded. On occasion I could get the bolt jammed closed on one. After I lightly polished the chamber the rifle functioned for six or seven rounds. Then it went right back to how it was before I polished the chamber. Only thing that can come and go that quick is carbon.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/26/19 07:52 AM)

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#3210932 - 08/26/19 12:50 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
hm1996 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 15219
Loc: S. Texas
I'd call Mike and discuss the problem with him. Did you send him any fired, and resized cases that would not chamber with the upper? Maybe some of the new cases that won't chamber, too.

Regards,
hm
_________________________
If what's ahead scares you and what's behind hurts you, look up; He never fails you.

If My people will humble themselves, pray, seek My face & turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven & will forgive their sin & heal their land.




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#3210949 - 08/26/19 05:13 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: 204 AR]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Originally Posted By: 204 AR
I measured a few, .290 to .291".

It sounds like your chamber is tight if new brass won't chamber. Who made the upper?


Not a tight chamber. Our chamber dimensions on that round has not changed in over 12 years.
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210951 - 08/26/19 05:55 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: hm1996]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Originally Posted By: hm1996


I do not have any fired brass left to measure but a new, unfired FC neck measures .2815 and a dummy case made from a fired FC case measures .282 (both chambered in my rifle easily).

Have you tried painting a case with sight black or a black marker then break the rifle open and chamber round by hand until it begins to feel snug; remove and see where the friction is just for kicks?

Regards,
hm


For the most part, measuring brass extracted from a gas-operated weapon is an unsure science at best. The neck diameter especially can and does get to be larger in diameter than the chamber from which it was extracted.

I had been hand-loading literally my entire life when the WSSM came along. It just about killed me! I ended up making a device much like the RCBS precision case micrometer, and that allowed me to troubleshoot, and fix my reloading problems.

The problem is that folks get by with making small mistakes on the .223 for the AR and everything still runs fine. On a .223 case if the shoulder is not set back far enough, and the brass is 1/2 a thousandth of an inch longer than the chamber, the heavy BCG will "smash" the case into the chamber, the bolt will close, and no one will be the wiser. Not so on a WSSM. If that case, as thick and as large in diameter as it is, is 1/2 of a thousandth of an inch longer than the chamber, the bolt just STOPS!

After licking my wounds 15-18 years ago, I wrote a two-page letter that we make available to WSSM users to help them troubleshoot their loading techniques.

This particular upper we actually have a fair amount of history on: We built it for a guy that wanted to shoot long, heavy bullets, so it started life as a 1:8 twist, 24" barrel. The original customer had no problems with accuracy or feed/function. He ended up selling the upper to another person that wanted to shoot light bullets, and thought he was getting the correct twist. The new owner sent it to us to have it cut back to 22" and fluted. We did so, tested it and returned it to him. It fed and functioned flawlessly, but he just wasn't able get the light bullets to shoot the way he wanted, so he ordered a 1:12 twist from us and sold the 1:8.

When Varminter .223 spoke with me about it, he mentioned that it had something in the chamber that was scratch the brass. I talked him through what I thought he should do, but he thought there was still a problem, so he sent it to us.

I borescoped it, and wasn't able to see anything that might scratch brass, but I lightly lapped it with a fine ball-hone, then tested it with factory and handloaded ammunition. We even took it to the range and shot groups with it. The upper not only fed and functioned as it should, it had good accuracy.

We have not received a call, message or email about any problems with it since we returned it. My partner just happened to see this thread and bring it to my attention.
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210962 - 08/26/19 10:39 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
Mike I just pulled it put of the box Sunday evening. I am trying to get the upper functioning for my hunting partner who knows little about reloading etc. I told him to get some factory ammo before we proceed any farther. We have since ordered AR10 uppers and then decided we can't do without sidecharging uppers which we have many of so our concern to get this wssm up and running is not great at the moment however I'm sure we will. They only thing I haven't tried is grinding the shellholder to get additional shoulder set back. (More than .010") and turning the necks. I also would like to verify that I never load any cartridge without measuring this dimension and I am already at max press cam over. When I measure a fired case everything measures to my knowledge as it should except at the neck. It measures .283 to .284 and that is basically within a half thou of what my loaded cases measure. New brass will not chamber and one does cram in and we fired it the bolt has to be beat open with a small hammer and plastic punch. This brass is that stuff Midway was blowing out recently and I'm trying to imagine how thick or hard brass can cause this. I have no other brass for this cartridge on hand hence why I came here asking for dimensions. When a fired case is the chambeedthe bolt has to be beat open again bit I'm assuming that is from the case growing beyond chamber length during high pressure after the bolt unlocks.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/26/19 11:45 PM)

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#3210965 - 08/26/19 11:04 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
Bigdwebster Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 01/25/15
Posts: 73
Loc: Illinois
When I had this upper I loaded with rcbs rockchucker and rcbs and Redding dies without any jams. Regular rcbs shellholder and firm cam over. I have factory ammo and some reloads your welcome to try. If you still have my number shoot me a txt or if not pm me and I will get them to you.
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#3210967 - 08/26/19 11:56 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
I'm going to load a few rounds in the morning as we were very pushed for time sat. evening. After some scope mounting issues it was already about to dark to shoot and when it wouldn't chamber we said screw it for the moment. Being stubborn I gave it one more attempt and it chambered, fired and was locked up like Fort Knox so that was it for Saturday after we got the case out. However I just got it out and new unsized brass as well as fired resized is fitting in and out of the chamber under it's own weight and a few rounds that I had loaded Saturday would chamber. The ones that would not chamber did finally go in after I polished the neck and the bodies down with 400 grit which tells me it isn't too little shoulder bump. The fact that it didnt extract a fired round still worries me but since I have time I'm gonna function test it in the morning to see what we I have going for sure. I will be in touch. Thanks!


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 12:30 AM)

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#3210969 - 08/27/19 03:45 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
Bear Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2046
Loc: Colorado USA
Get a small base die. I have a 30-06 that does that and a small base die cured it. My 06 would rip the rim right off the case but not now.
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#3210977 - 08/27/19 09:31 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: Bear]
jrnm Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 279
Loc: Clayton NM
no small base dies available for wssm, file the shell holder top down. Cam the press over center under pressure. These are tough cases and will spring back. Take the firing pin out of the bolt, use only thumb pressure to test whether a case or found will chamber and lock up on closing.

Another way is to take some metal off the bottom of the sizing die, I don't like to do it this way myself. Much better to file the top of the shell holder.

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#3210978 - 08/27/19 09:37 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
PM Sponsor

Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
I have looked through this thread, and perhaps I am missing it, but I don't see where you posted what the neck diameter was on your new brass with a bullet seated.

As 204 AR posted that his extracted cases measured .290"-.291" at the neck, those cases were extracted from a chamber with a neck diameter of .287". As I said earlier, the diameter of the neck of a case extracted from a WSSM AR chamber is not relevant. Each bullet/powder combination, each stick of brass, depending on how work-hardened it is, and even shot-to-shot variances in pressure are all going to give you a different spent-case neck diameter.

There are several things I would like to know:

1) What is the neck-diameter of the case with a seated bullet?

2) What brand of brass are you using?

3) What method are you using to determine that you are setting the shoulder back?

As I have said before: The WSSM fired from an AR is nothing short of magic, but you can't treat it like you do a .223. There are virtually countless things that can give you problems where you won't notice them while loading for a .223.

What is somewhat odd is that it seems that having a fair amount of hand-loading experience and mechanical ability just doesn't seem to be make the user immune to loading issues, in fact, to the contrary. It seems, including in my own case many years ago, I though I knew better and chased my tail around for some time. The customers with little experience that closely follow advise seem to do quite well.

Bear mentioned small-base dies. I have never found them to be needed. However, I have seen dies crack and give folks fits. The cracked sizing die will sometimes allow a sized case to fit, while leaving others that will stick in the chamber. For a while, Redding was having quite a bit of failures, and actually contacted me regarding chamber dimensions. They were taking measurements of extracted brass and though the chamber I was producing was over-sized. When I gave them the chamber dimensions, they moved on and found that it was an issue in heat-treating. In all my years, I have never seen a cracked sizing die.... Other than several WSSM's.
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210984 - 08/27/19 10:14 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
I was just about to post these findings after test firing the gun which did not go well.
The first attempt of 3 fired the first one after I chambered it by hand with quite a bit of force, but the bolt would not close on the second one. So I put the third one in by hand and put the second one in the mag and then it cycle and functioned.

I loaded three more and set the coal back to 2.200 with the 85 grain Sierra hollow point boat tail and 40 and 1/2 grains of Varget. I force the chamber closed on the first one it went Bang but the extractor rip past the case which was stuck in the chamber. Once again I had to hammer the bolt open with a plastic punch and a small hammer.

I am shooting the Winchester brass that Midway was blowing out a few months ago.

New brass and resize brass will drop in the chamber and fall back out of the chamber under its own weight. It would not do this before I sent it in.

New and resized brass measures .280 at neck

Loaded brass measures .2825" ish

Fired brass measures maybe .0005" bigger.

I'm taking measurements with my $15 caliper so my it is tough the measure that last .0005". I will try to remember to bring a good micrometer home from the shop tonight but as I measure a little bit lower on the neck it seems that the loaded cases are are the same .284" as the fired cases as opposed to measuring higher on the neck.

As a machinist who measures in .0001" on a daily basis I think I can say that the average neck diameter depending on the location you measure it is basically identical to a fired case at least when measured with a $15 calipers.



Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 10:19 AM)

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#3210989 - 08/27/19 10:37 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
I am measuring shoulder bump with the Hornady headspace gauge with the 350 bushing.

New brass measures 1.320
Resized with huge cam over 1.330
Fired brass 1.340
Of course those measurements can vary .001" depending on case.

After realizing new brass was .010 short at shoulder than new I reloaded three more new unsized with a 2.230 coal and once again the round chambered extremely hard and after it fired the extractor ripped past the case and tried to feed the next one into the back of it. Again I had to hammer the bolt open with my plastic punch which I am getting very efficient at now.

All of these cases even at the 1.330 shoulder measurement chamber with ease until you stick a bullet in the neck.

I don't have a single doubt in my mind that the hang-up at the neck.

I load for at least 40 rifles and I can't say that I measure this on every one but I've never seen one that doesn't expand somewhere around an additional ten thousandths at the neck upon firing.



Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 10:43 AM)

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#3210991 - 08/27/19 10:38 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Without having it in my hands, I would say that the 40.5 grains of Varget is probably too hot for that twist and that bore. That load is what we have used for testing 1:10 twist barrels for years, and it is, in our chamber, a stout load. If your bore is tighter than others, coupled with the 1:8 twist, I would say you are over-pressure.

Try backing down that charge and see what happens.

The .243 WSSM really should have always been a rifle-plus 2 gas-system. When the chamber pressure is high while the bolt is trying to unlock, something is going to give. In your case, it is your case-rim.

Case-necks measured from a case extracted from your chamber when the bolt doesn't extract the brass will run real close to the chamber dimensions. It is when the bolt jerks the case out of the chamber while under pressure that the case neck and body can and will be larger than the chamber that it was fired in.
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210992 - 08/27/19 10:42 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
PM Sponsor

Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Originally Posted By: varminter .223


After realizing new brass was .010 short at shoulder than new I reloaded three more with a 2.230 coal and once again the round chambered extremely hard and after it fired the extractor ripped past the case and tried to feed the next one into the back of it. Again I had to hammer the bolt open with my plastic punch which I am getting very efficient at now LOL.



I believe you will find that seating that bullet to 2.23 is too long. That is a VERY blunt bullet and you have probably driven it into the lands. I believe, from memory, that you are safe at 2.2"
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210993 - 08/27/19 10:45 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
I already tried that and I testing them at 2.200" this morning with the same results and if I recall I shot some other bullets that did the same thing.

This still doesn't explain why brand new Winchester brass will not chamber after you put a bullet in the neck.

What diameter is your reamer supposed to cut the neck portion of the chamber too?
.284? I would guess the chamber should be cut closer to .290?

The CCI 200 primers are flat with a slight round edge yet. No case head marks to speak of and ejection is somewhere around 2:30.

I will try to back to charge down but I don't know if I'll have time today. That still isn't going to fix the fact that my rounds chamber terribly hard though.

I need to check with my buddy and see if he ever got any factory ammo coming.



Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 10:53 AM)

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#3210994 - 08/27/19 10:54 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
On the two cartridges that I polished the neck until they chambered after they chambered you could still see shiny marks where it was making contact with the sides of the neck portion of the chamber.

If you're telling me a stuck cartridge will be very close to the same chamber size then your chamber has to be cut to .284 at the neck. I'm going to guess that is not the case.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 10:55 AM)

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#3210996 - 08/27/19 10:58 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
As I said in an earlier post, the chamber neck is cut to .287".

Not being able to chamber a round with that bullet seated to 2.23 would be explained by the bullet hitting the lands. That bullet seated to 2.2" not chambering with ease would have to be case distortion. That is all that is left.

We have seen lots of different problems with brass. Some brass is so soft that it gets distorted while the expander-ball is being pulled back though the neck. Sometimes folks have their seating die set so that the crimp-band in the die is distorting the case at the end of the seating cycle. We have also had problems with brass that is too hard.

If your sized brass drops in the chamber and falls out, and your loaded round won't chamber, it should be easy troubleshooting to find out what is going on. My guess would be that you are distorting the brass near the base of the neck.

Blacken the case with a marker and find out where it is binding. Make sure your seating die does not attempt to crimp any of the case. (make sure it is backed off enough so even a longer case doesn't get crimped)
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210999 - 08/27/19 11:10 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
I always back my seating dies off one round from touching the top of the neck so I know I'm not crimping. I would say I have about .001 to .0015 slip fit when sliding a bullet in the neck of a fired case and .001 is about the neck growth I'm getting at most. I wondered if maybe the issue was at the very base of the neck where it radius's to the should but as I stated I'm working on this for another individual and he is supposed to be coming up with factory ammo. I already bought another set of dies to try.

One would think Factory brass should chamber after loaded though.

I'm not going to do another thing or consume another minute of anyone's time until I have different brass in my hand.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 11:12 AM)

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#3211007 - 08/27/19 11:46 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Nothing would surprise me anymore. I would say there is a high likelihood that the brass is the issue. You should be able to take the tips of your caliper and measure along the neck with a bullet seated. My chambers are .287", so anything real close to that is going to give you problems.

I'm not trying to throw Winchester under the bus, but they have certainly had their share of issues since they moved their ammunition manufacturing. The last batch of factory .243 WSSM loads that we received had huge issues with the crimp. You could look through one box of ammo and find crimps that were so light you could barley detect it, all the way to ones that were so deep it squirted the tip of the bullet forward!

Bottom line is that the upper you have has run like a sewing machine for everyone but you. It sounds like you have a good grasp on hand-loading, so you are probably going to find that the brass is what it causing you all the problems.
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#3211011 - 08/27/19 11:58 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
Well we have over a thousand rounds of that brass so it would only make sense that it is not good LOL. I might have an individual I know who used to do a lot of neck turning spin a few necks down just to test if nothing else not to necessarily reduce the diameter but take any bulges or irregularities out of it. I also have a dial bore gauge that would work perfectly for reaching down into the throat and measuring the diameter of it.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 11:59 AM)

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#3211014 - 08/27/19 12:16 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Originally Posted By: varminter .223
I also have a dial bore gauge that would work perfectly for reaching down into the throat and measuring the diameter of it.


You can go ahead and measure it you wish, but quite frankly, it's impossible for the same reamer to cut one chamber tighter than another. It is the same reamer dimensions that have cut all of my chambers for probably more than 12 years.

Logically, if it were a chamber that somehow got cut with a smaller neck than all of my others, then it would not have worked for others, and it has.

The diameter of the neck is only relevant in knowing whether the neck of a loaded round will fit or not.
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There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
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#3211016 - 08/27/19 12:37 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
Well I don't know how many chambers you can cut with the reamer before they dull and you lose a thou or even a couple but my only concern is those necks not growing to reamer neck diameter. I thought maybe my brass was a little thick along with the combination of a neck that could be just a hair tight that maybe doesn't show up with thinner brass. Tollerance stack so to speak. I size, ream, clearance and fit things in holes everday and I have a good acquaintance with Murphy and I understand the things that can go wrong no matter how much money is spent on equipment or how much attention is paid to the job. Sometimes peace of mind is worth the effort to get it.

As they say in the engine building world if it's a hair loose only the guy putting it together knows and if it's a hair tight everyone knows.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 12:40 PM)

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#3211017 - 08/27/19 12:47 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Our chamber reamers have a solid carbide body, with a removable bushing pilot with oil groves ground into them. The pilot wears and is replaced as needed.

The chamber is roughed with a solid carbide roughing reamer, so the finish reamer really does very little work. If the reamer gets dull or is chipped, it is replace with another cut to the same dimensions, and the old one is sent in (one time) to be resharpened. When they are resharpened, everything gets moved back, keeping all of the neck and body dimensions the exact same as new.

The reamers actually will cut a huge amount of chambers, and I wouldn't doubt that the one that cut your chamber is still the same exact reamer that we are using today, and it's still not cutting tight chambers.

Edited to add: Come to think of it, in all the tens of thousands of barrels that I have chambered, I've never seen a chamber reamer actually cut a smaller chamber due to wear. I have measured necks on reamers that have done more than their share of work, and have never been able to measure any wear on a solid carbide reamer. And when I say any, I mean down to the 1/10th of a thousandth of an inch, much less a "thousandth or two."


Edited by dtech (08/27/19 12:53 PM)
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#3211019 - 08/27/19 01:16 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: Bigdwebster]
SlickerThanSnot Online
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/31/14
Posts: 4980
Loc: stuck in a fence
Originally Posted By: Bigdwebster
When I had this upper I loaded with rcbs rockchucker and rcbs and Redding dies without any jams. Regular rcbs shellholder and firm cam over. I have factory ammo and some reloads your welcome to try. If you still have my number shoot me a txt or if not pm me and I will get them to you.


so what has changed?
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#3211021 - 08/27/19 01:23 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Lots: different brass, different dies, different press and different hand-loader.


My best guess is the brass is the culprit. The truth is that the sooner we can put suspicion that the neck is tight behind us, the sooner the problem will be resolved.
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Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
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#3211024 - 08/27/19 01:40 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
The Press is basically new and it is a rock chucker 2. The dies are also brand new RCBS. I generally won't mess with used dies. I have seen brass cause problems before and I'm hoping that is the problem.

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#3211034 - 08/27/19 03:01 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
1lessdog Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 567
Loc: N.D./Mn
Mine did the same thing. Make sure when your resizing that the press cams over and the shell holder hits the bottom of the die. I went to Pam cooking spray on them cases and they all chambered. Make sure the shell holder bottoms out.
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#3211035 - 08/27/19 03:06 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
I use RCBS Case Lube with huge press cam over LOL. The new unsized rounds with an additional .010 shoulder setback do the same thing. As stated before new and resize cases chamber like a champ. Issue arises when you expand the case neck when seating a bullet. I'm not sure if I ever tried any one shot Lube before seating though. I don't know if that would have any effect on distortion of the brass or not.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 03:10 PM)

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#3211079 - 08/28/19 09:04 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
jrnm Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 279
Loc: Clayton NM
Something that has helped me as much as anything was to get a case length, headspace gauge, if it fits, it shoots in the ar.

Don't be afraid to mortar the ar if you get a stuck round, I also carry a military 223 cleaning kit so I can drive out a stuck round from the chamber as well.

The ar 243 wssm is worth the BS when you get it worked out. 60-69 grain bullets and the coyotes just give up out of respect. LOL.

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#3211128 - 08/29/19 11:30 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
JMette Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/18
Posts: 38
Loc: illinois
I've got some 243 wssm turned necks you are more than welcome to try if youd like. they are winchester brass purchased from the midway deal. never had an issue in my dtech upper with them. you can try a couple of new neck turned ones, and a couple once fired resized in redding dies too that were neck turned too. as they say smoke the case to find where its hanging up.. or sharpie rather. cheers
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#3211571 - 09/03/19 11:14 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
SlickerThanSnot Online
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/31/14
Posts: 4980
Loc: stuck in a fence
any new updates on this?
_________________________
if you shoot a 223 at coyotes you may father children with 6 toes. are you willing to chance that?

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#3211601 - 09/04/19 09:12 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
No..... again it's not really my upper I'm just working on it for the individual. I'm waiting on him to provide me with some Factory ammunition or different brass. However I'm sure he would sell the upper for a very reasonable price if anyone is interested.


Edited by varminter .223 (09/04/19 09:22 AM)

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#3211733 - 09/05/19 09:33 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
jrnm Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 279
Loc: Clayton NM
I believe they are worth the effort. Even though I don't use mine much, I prefer the 6DTI, mainly because it is threaded and I can use a suppressor, my wssm just has the internal brake which works quite well and isn't as loud as you would believe.

The thing that helped me the most was the Wilson chamber gauge, much easier to use than cycling through the action. I quit having brass problems. I occasionally anneal, and have done some neck turning.

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#3213857 - 10/02/19 09:27 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: jrnm]
jrnm Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 279
Loc: Clayton NM
Any update?

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#3213890 - 10/02/19 07:36 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: jrnm]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2113
Loc: south central Illinois
No my buddy never did produce any factory rounds yet. Between maintaining food plots ,getting stands set, working and now deer hunting it's kind of been back burnered.


Edited by varminter .223 (10/02/19 07:38 PM)

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