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#3210962 - 08/26/19 10:39 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2109
Loc: south central Illinois
Mike I just pulled it put of the box Sunday evening. I am trying to get the upper functioning for my hunting partner who knows little about reloading etc. I told him to get some factory ammo before we proceed any farther. We have since ordered AR10 uppers and then decided we can't do without sidecharging uppers which we have many of so our concern to get this wssm up and running is not great at the moment however I'm sure we will. They only thing I haven't tried is grinding the shellholder to get additional shoulder set back. (More than .010") and turning the necks. I also would like to verify that I never load any cartridge without measuring this dimension and I am already at max press cam over. When I measure a fired case everything measures to my knowledge as it should except at the neck. It measures .283 to .284 and that is basically within a half thou of what my loaded cases measure. New brass will not chamber and one does cram in and we fired it the bolt has to be beat open with a small hammer and plastic punch. This brass is that stuff Midway was blowing out recently and I'm trying to imagine how thick or hard brass can cause this. I have no other brass for this cartridge on hand hence why I came here asking for dimensions. When a fired case is the chambeedthe bolt has to be beat open again bit I'm assuming that is from the case growing beyond chamber length during high pressure after the bolt unlocks.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/26/19 11:45 PM)

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#3210965 - 08/26/19 11:04 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
Bigdwebster Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 01/25/15
Posts: 73
Loc: Illinois
When I had this upper I loaded with rcbs rockchucker and rcbs and Redding dies without any jams. Regular rcbs shellholder and firm cam over. I have factory ammo and some reloads your welcome to try. If you still have my number shoot me a txt or if not pm me and I will get them to you.
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223,6.5 Grendel, Christensen arms CA-10 243, Trijicon MKlll 60mm
Night optics D-790 white phosphor , Pulsar Trail xp50, Pulsar Helion xp50



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#3210967 - 08/26/19 11:56 PM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2109
Loc: south central Illinois
I'm going to load a few rounds in the morning as we were very pushed for time sat. evening. After some scope mounting issues it was already about to dark to shoot and when it wouldn't chamber we said screw it for the moment. Being stubborn I gave it one more attempt and it chambered, fired and was locked up like Fort Knox so that was it for Saturday after we got the case out. However I just got it out and new unsized brass as well as fired resized is fitting in and out of the chamber under it's own weight and a few rounds that I had loaded Saturday would chamber. The ones that would not chamber did finally go in after I polished the neck and the bodies down with 400 grit which tells me it isn't too little shoulder bump. The fact that it didnt extract a fired round still worries me but since I have time I'm gonna function test it in the morning to see what we I have going for sure. I will be in touch. Thanks!


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 12:30 AM)

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#3210969 - 08/27/19 03:45 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
Bear Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2045
Loc: Colorado USA
Get a small base die. I have a 30-06 that does that and a small base die cured it. My 06 would rip the rim right off the case but not now.
_________________________
When you are dead you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for others. It is the same when you are Stupid. I really LOVE it when I wake up and find out Obama isn't still president!!

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#3210977 - 08/27/19 09:31 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: Bear]
jrnm Online
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 279
Loc: Clayton NM
no small base dies available for wssm, file the shell holder top down. Cam the press over center under pressure. These are tough cases and will spring back. Take the firing pin out of the bolt, use only thumb pressure to test whether a case or found will chamber and lock up on closing.

Another way is to take some metal off the bottom of the sizing die, I don't like to do it this way myself. Much better to file the top of the shell holder.

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#3210978 - 08/27/19 09:37 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
PM Sponsor

Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
I have looked through this thread, and perhaps I am missing it, but I don't see where you posted what the neck diameter was on your new brass with a bullet seated.

As 204 AR posted that his extracted cases measured .290"-.291" at the neck, those cases were extracted from a chamber with a neck diameter of .287". As I said earlier, the diameter of the neck of a case extracted from a WSSM AR chamber is not relevant. Each bullet/powder combination, each stick of brass, depending on how work-hardened it is, and even shot-to-shot variances in pressure are all going to give you a different spent-case neck diameter.

There are several things I would like to know:

1) What is the neck-diameter of the case with a seated bullet?

2) What brand of brass are you using?

3) What method are you using to determine that you are setting the shoulder back?

As I have said before: The WSSM fired from an AR is nothing short of magic, but you can't treat it like you do a .223. There are virtually countless things that can give you problems where you won't notice them while loading for a .223.

What is somewhat odd is that it seems that having a fair amount of hand-loading experience and mechanical ability just doesn't seem to be make the user immune to loading issues, in fact, to the contrary. It seems, including in my own case many years ago, I though I knew better and chased my tail around for some time. The customers with little experience that closely follow advise seem to do quite well.

Bear mentioned small-base dies. I have never found them to be needed. However, I have seen dies crack and give folks fits. The cracked sizing die will sometimes allow a sized case to fit, while leaving others that will stick in the chamber. For a while, Redding was having quite a bit of failures, and actually contacted me regarding chamber dimensions. They were taking measurements of extracted brass and though the chamber I was producing was over-sized. When I gave them the chamber dimensions, they moved on and found that it was an issue in heat-treating. In all my years, I have never seen a cracked sizing die.... Other than several WSSM's.
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210984 - 08/27/19 10:14 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2109
Loc: south central Illinois
I was just about to post these findings after test firing the gun which did not go well.
The first attempt of 3 fired the first one after I chambered it by hand with quite a bit of force, but the bolt would not close on the second one. So I put the third one in by hand and put the second one in the mag and then it cycle and functioned.

I loaded three more and set the coal back to 2.200 with the 85 grain Sierra hollow point boat tail and 40 and 1/2 grains of Varget. I force the chamber closed on the first one it went Bang but the extractor rip past the case which was stuck in the chamber. Once again I had to hammer the bolt open with a plastic punch and a small hammer.

I am shooting the Winchester brass that Midway was blowing out a few months ago.

New brass and resize brass will drop in the chamber and fall back out of the chamber under its own weight. It would not do this before I sent it in.

New and resized brass measures .280 at neck

Loaded brass measures .2825" ish

Fired brass measures maybe .0005" bigger.

I'm taking measurements with my $15 caliper so my it is tough the measure that last .0005". I will try to remember to bring a good micrometer home from the shop tonight but as I measure a little bit lower on the neck it seems that the loaded cases are are the same .284" as the fired cases as opposed to measuring higher on the neck.

As a machinist who measures in .0001" on a daily basis I think I can say that the average neck diameter depending on the location you measure it is basically identical to a fired case at least when measured with a $15 calipers.



Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 10:19 AM)

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#3210989 - 08/27/19 10:37 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2109
Loc: south central Illinois
I am measuring shoulder bump with the Hornady headspace gauge with the 350 bushing.

New brass measures 1.320
Resized with huge cam over 1.330
Fired brass 1.340
Of course those measurements can vary .001" depending on case.

After realizing new brass was .010 short at shoulder than new I reloaded three more new unsized with a 2.230 coal and once again the round chambered extremely hard and after it fired the extractor ripped past the case and tried to feed the next one into the back of it. Again I had to hammer the bolt open with my plastic punch which I am getting very efficient at now.

All of these cases even at the 1.330 shoulder measurement chamber with ease until you stick a bullet in the neck.

I don't have a single doubt in my mind that the hang-up at the neck.

I load for at least 40 rifles and I can't say that I measure this on every one but I've never seen one that doesn't expand somewhere around an additional ten thousandths at the neck upon firing.



Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 10:43 AM)

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#3210991 - 08/27/19 10:38 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
PM Sponsor

Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Without having it in my hands, I would say that the 40.5 grains of Varget is probably too hot for that twist and that bore. That load is what we have used for testing 1:10 twist barrels for years, and it is, in our chamber, a stout load. If your bore is tighter than others, coupled with the 1:8 twist, I would say you are over-pressure.

Try backing down that charge and see what happens.

The .243 WSSM really should have always been a rifle-plus 2 gas-system. When the chamber pressure is high while the bolt is trying to unlock, something is going to give. In your case, it is your case-rim.

Case-necks measured from a case extracted from your chamber when the bolt doesn't extract the brass will run real close to the chamber dimensions. It is when the bolt jerks the case out of the chamber while under pressure that the case neck and body can and will be larger than the chamber that it was fired in.
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210992 - 08/27/19 10:42 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
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Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Originally Posted By: varminter .223


After realizing new brass was .010 short at shoulder than new I reloaded three more with a 2.230 coal and once again the round chambered extremely hard and after it fired the extractor ripped past the case and tried to feed the next one into the back of it. Again I had to hammer the bolt open with my plastic punch which I am getting very efficient at now LOL.



I believe you will find that seating that bullet to 2.23 is too long. That is a VERY blunt bullet and you have probably driven it into the lands. I believe, from memory, that you are safe at 2.2"
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210993 - 08/27/19 10:45 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2109
Loc: south central Illinois
I already tried that and I testing them at 2.200" this morning with the same results and if I recall I shot some other bullets that did the same thing.

This still doesn't explain why brand new Winchester brass will not chamber after you put a bullet in the neck.

What diameter is your reamer supposed to cut the neck portion of the chamber too?
.284? I would guess the chamber should be cut closer to .290?

The CCI 200 primers are flat with a slight round edge yet. No case head marks to speak of and ejection is somewhere around 2:30.

I will try to back to charge down but I don't know if I'll have time today. That still isn't going to fix the fact that my rounds chamber terribly hard though.

I need to check with my buddy and see if he ever got any factory ammo coming.



Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 10:53 AM)

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#3210994 - 08/27/19 10:54 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2109
Loc: south central Illinois
On the two cartridges that I polished the neck until they chambered after they chambered you could still see shiny marks where it was making contact with the sides of the neck portion of the chamber.

If you're telling me a stuck cartridge will be very close to the same chamber size then your chamber has to be cut to .284 at the neck. I'm going to guess that is not the case.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 10:55 AM)

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#3210996 - 08/27/19 10:58 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
PM Sponsor

Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
As I said in an earlier post, the chamber neck is cut to .287".

Not being able to chamber a round with that bullet seated to 2.23 would be explained by the bullet hitting the lands. That bullet seated to 2.2" not chambering with ease would have to be case distortion. That is all that is left.

We have seen lots of different problems with brass. Some brass is so soft that it gets distorted while the expander-ball is being pulled back though the neck. Sometimes folks have their seating die set so that the crimp-band in the die is distorting the case at the end of the seating cycle. We have also had problems with brass that is too hard.

If your sized brass drops in the chamber and falls out, and your loaded round won't chamber, it should be easy troubleshooting to find out what is going on. My guess would be that you are distorting the brass near the base of the neck.

Blacken the case with a marker and find out where it is binding. Make sure your seating die does not attempt to crimp any of the case. (make sure it is backed off enough so even a longer case doesn't get crimped)
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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#3210999 - 08/27/19 11:10 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
varminter .223 Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2109
Loc: south central Illinois
I always back my seating dies off one round from touching the top of the neck so I know I'm not crimping. I would say I have about .001 to .0015 slip fit when sliding a bullet in the neck of a fired case and .001 is about the neck growth I'm getting at most. I wondered if maybe the issue was at the very base of the neck where it radius's to the should but as I stated I'm working on this for another individual and he is supposed to be coming up with factory ammo. I already bought another set of dies to try.

One would think Factory brass should chamber after loaded though.

I'm not going to do another thing or consume another minute of anyone's time until I have different brass in my hand.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/27/19 11:12 AM)

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#3211007 - 08/27/19 11:46 AM Re: 243 wssm fired case neck diameter? [Re: varminter .223]
dtech Offline
PM Sponsor

Registered: 12/17/04
Posts: 2277
Loc: Bemidji, MN
Nothing would surprise me anymore. I would say there is a high likelihood that the brass is the issue. You should be able to take the tips of your caliper and measure along the neck with a bullet seated. My chambers are .287", so anything real close to that is going to give you problems.

I'm not trying to throw Winchester under the bus, but they have certainly had their share of issues since they moved their ammunition manufacturing. The last batch of factory .243 WSSM loads that we received had huge issues with the crimp. You could look through one box of ammo and find crimps that were so light you could barley detect it, all the way to ones that were so deep it squirted the tip of the bullet forward!

Bottom line is that the upper you have has run like a sewing machine for everyone but you. It sounds like you have a good grasp on hand-loading, so you are probably going to find that the brass is what it causing you all the problems.
_________________________
Mike Milli
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental illness"
www.dtechuppers.com



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