I was recently looking through one of my reloading manuals and noticed that there are two different sets of loads for .223 Remington (or 5.56) with one identified as "Bolt" and the other identified as "Service". I think I can safely say that we all would recognize that one was for the AR-15 platform and the other is for the typical bolt rifle. However, I thought it might be a good topic to discuss here and decided to post. Has anyone had that discussion with Nosler, Sierra, Hornady or Hodgdon and if so what was their explanation? Not really interested in starting any heated discussions here, just curious what drove that decision. Any feedback will be welcome.
Service Rifle Loads
- Thread starter UncleDoc
- Start date
Powder and gas propagation for pressures enter into the operation of the AR. A service rifle is frequently loaded up to the 5.56 MAX of around 62,000 PSI. It does make a bit of a difference on the chronograph. I've used the stiff from Hornady and Western Powders with great success in my AR's. Horndy does limit the bullet weight on the and does not go up near as high as the ACCURATE/WESTERN powders. A/W will show loads down to the 40 up to 90 where as Hornady only does 68-80.
Oddly enough the AR loads in Sierra are considerably lower than the bolt actions levels yet when you compare Sierra and Hornady the Hornady service number are much much closer to the Sierra bolt stuff. When you compare the Accurate 5.56 data to the Sierra bolt gun loads they are only a few tenths off and at times the AA is higher than the Siera bolt data.
I run 5.56 or 223 Wylde style chambers so I tend to drift toward the AA stuff and will sneak over the line with published standard 223 data that is held to 55,000. The 223/556 data is all over the map and will really highlight that not all companies think alike in top end parameters.
Greg
Oddly enough the AR loads in Sierra are considerably lower than the bolt actions levels yet when you compare Sierra and Hornady the Hornady service number are much much closer to the Sierra bolt stuff. When you compare the Accurate 5.56 data to the Sierra bolt gun loads they are only a few tenths off and at times the AA is higher than the Siera bolt data.
I run 5.56 or 223 Wylde style chambers so I tend to drift toward the AA stuff and will sneak over the line with published standard 223 data that is held to 55,000. The 223/556 data is all over the map and will really highlight that not all companies think alike in top end parameters.
Greg
Thanks both of you guys. I had assumed it was pressure related as you stated. As MgySgt alluded to...the Varget and 69 grain pills are a good go-to. Most of my bolt guns are 12 twist so the heavies are used in my AR’s which are 7 and 10 twist guns. By the way, thank you for your service. Yesterday was the day I was inducted.....51 years ago.
ninehorses
New member
Some of this comes from trying to get the right pressure for reliable ejection. In a perfect world, your AR should toss the brass out from 3:00 o'clock to 4:30, from 3:00 o'clock forward you are over gassed, 4:30 - 6:00 you are short stroking or under gassed. This assumes you have the right buffer, spring, carrier...
Many AR's are 9 -7 twist, most of the AR data is for the longer heavy bullets, and the chamber-throat that are designed for them.
I wish Catshooter was still around, he could make some interesting post on pressure in the .223 - 5.56 debate. This would come up about every two weeks. Feel free to do a search if you are interested in some lively debate. Be sure to bring popcorn!
Many AR's are 9 -7 twist, most of the AR data is for the longer heavy bullets, and the chamber-throat that are designed for them.
I wish Catshooter was still around, he could make some interesting post on pressure in the .223 - 5.56 debate. This would come up about every two weeks. Feel free to do a search if you are interested in some lively debate. Be sure to bring popcorn!
...interesting. Never really considered what the ejection angle should be given the proper pressure, buffer and spring. However, I do have...well, more than one...and depending on which one I am shooting I pick up brass either straight out to the right or like you said, back around 5 o'clock.
As far as Catshooter is concerned, I have seen him on some other sites, but I think he got a case of the arse so to speak and either left or was asked to leave. He and I had some lively discussions, but I will give him this, he knows his stuff. It's a shame that the younger, lesser informed members on these forums can no longer benefit from his knowledge and experience.
As far as Catshooter is concerned, I have seen him on some other sites, but I think he got a case of the arse so to speak and either left or was asked to leave. He and I had some lively discussions, but I will give him this, he knows his stuff. It's a shame that the younger, lesser informed members on these forums can no longer benefit from his knowledge and experience.
Plant.One
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: ninehorsesSome of this comes from trying to get the right pressure for reliable ejection. In a perfect world, your AR should toss the brass out from 3:00 o'clock to 4:30, from 3:00 o'clock forward you are over gassed, 4:30 - 6:00 you are short stroking or under gassed. This assumes you have the right buffer, spring, carrier...
Many AR's are 9 -7 twist, most of the AR data is for the longer heavy bullets, and the chamber-throat that are designed for them.
I wish Catshooter was still around, he could make some interesting post on pressure in the .223 - 5.56 debate. This would come up about every two weeks. Feel free to do a search if you are interested in some lively debate. Be sure to bring popcorn!
tbh- i believe thats one of the biggest differences in 223 data out there. a 223 chamber, vs a 223 wylde, vs a 5.56 are entirely different animals when it comes to the throat/leade area. attempting to use many of the heavier for caliber bullets from the "service rifle" or 5.56 load data in a standard 223 sporting chamber with its relatively short throat/leade could easily end up with a bullet being jammed into the lands and having an over-pressure safety issue.
which is why unless you specifically custom order a barrel, most production ar's these days that are listed as 223/5.56 are actually WYLDE chambers, and not standard 223 rem chambers.
i dont disagree with your tuning for proper ejection stuff so much, although i feel thats something that moreso needs to be done either at the gas port via an AGB (adjustable gas block) or in the receiver extension with buffer weight adjustment. doing so by lowering the charge of your reloads works, but you're needlessly sacrificing velocity to modify something that can be handled elsewhere safely and reliably.
Just like the safety factor of cutting WYLDE chambers instead of standard 223, many manufacturers intentionally over-gas their guns to ensure reliability with either sub-par steel case ammo, or for circumstances where maintenance cleanings are neglected well beyond normal. So they'll run that 16" carbine gas barrel with a 3oz buffer to make sure the gun runs - even if its throwing the brass in places it shouldn't be in ideal circumstances or bottoming out the buffer in the buffer extension.
just so that some bubba can go "bang-bang-bang" and then just stuff their gun in the safe until next time without worrying about it cycling due to a mostly dirty and unmaintained bcg and not complain online how "their gun sucks" when its not the guns fault at all
in a perfect world, on that 16" 223/556 barrel... mid-gas and a h2 (4.5oz) buffer is probably a better option, but will require the user to maintain their gun better top achieve the same reliability that adding port pressure by using the carbine gas port position gives.
Many AR's are 9 -7 twist, most of the AR data is for the longer heavy bullets, and the chamber-throat that are designed for them.
I wish Catshooter was still around, he could make some interesting post on pressure in the .223 - 5.56 debate. This would come up about every two weeks. Feel free to do a search if you are interested in some lively debate. Be sure to bring popcorn!
tbh- i believe thats one of the biggest differences in 223 data out there. a 223 chamber, vs a 223 wylde, vs a 5.56 are entirely different animals when it comes to the throat/leade area. attempting to use many of the heavier for caliber bullets from the "service rifle" or 5.56 load data in a standard 223 sporting chamber with its relatively short throat/leade could easily end up with a bullet being jammed into the lands and having an over-pressure safety issue.
which is why unless you specifically custom order a barrel, most production ar's these days that are listed as 223/5.56 are actually WYLDE chambers, and not standard 223 rem chambers.
i dont disagree with your tuning for proper ejection stuff so much, although i feel thats something that moreso needs to be done either at the gas port via an AGB (adjustable gas block) or in the receiver extension with buffer weight adjustment. doing so by lowering the charge of your reloads works, but you're needlessly sacrificing velocity to modify something that can be handled elsewhere safely and reliably.
Just like the safety factor of cutting WYLDE chambers instead of standard 223, many manufacturers intentionally over-gas their guns to ensure reliability with either sub-par steel case ammo, or for circumstances where maintenance cleanings are neglected well beyond normal. So they'll run that 16" carbine gas barrel with a 3oz buffer to make sure the gun runs - even if its throwing the brass in places it shouldn't be in ideal circumstances or bottoming out the buffer in the buffer extension.
just so that some bubba can go "bang-bang-bang" and then just stuff their gun in the safe until next time without worrying about it cycling due to a mostly dirty and unmaintained bcg and not complain online how "their gun sucks" when its not the guns fault at all
in a perfect world, on that 16" 223/556 barrel... mid-gas and a h2 (4.5oz) buffer is probably a better option, but will require the user to maintain their gun better top achieve the same reliability that adding port pressure by using the carbine gas port position gives.