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#3207217 - 07/03/19 01:52 PM Re: Prickly Pear are in bloom! [Re: orkan]
B23 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 2035
Loc: Pacific NW
orkan, what is the Lot# of that American Eagle ammo you're shooting? If you could post a pic of the Lot# from the box, that would be even better.

I've pulled the bullets on a couple factory Hornady 17 Hornet 20gr Vmax and though I don't have a clue what the specific powder is, the powder charge for both of the ones I measured was 11.7gr of powder.


Edited by B23 (07/03/19 02:05 PM)

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#3207231 - 07/03/19 04:02 PM Re: Prickly Pear are in bloom! [Re: B23]
orkan Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 1745
Loc: Western SD


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#3207243 - 07/03/19 06:34 PM Re: Prickly Pear are in bloom! [Re: orkan]
B23 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 2035
Loc: Pacific NW
And those would be Hornady Lot#'s.

To double check myself, so I wasn't spreading bad information, I talked to Federal again earlier today. The Tech I talk to was great and very willing to share/give out information. He confirmed what I'd been told before, and to date, all of the Federal AE ammo for the 17 Hornet is made for them by Hornady. I asked if Federal had different specs than the Hornady labeled ammo, he said no and everything is the same with the exception of the headstamp on the brass.

He did tell me Federal had plans to start making their own 17 Hornet ammo in house but they hadn't done so as of yet. I asked him, for future reference, once their in house made 17 Hornet ammo hits the shelf, how will we be able to tell the difference between it and the stuff made by Hornady, he said Federal uses a whole different Lot# sequence than does Hornady. Hornady Lot#'s are numbers only, like your boxes have, where as Federal uses letters and numbers in their Lot#'s.

I also asked about the odd cases we often see. He said he fields calls on this all the time and actually had some on his desk a customer had sent back. He told me nearly 100% of the calls he takes regarding this is from people with CZ 527 17 Hornets and they usually all say the same thing, it shoots fine but the brass comes out looking odd.

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#3207251 - 07/03/19 07:37 PM Re: Prickly Pear are in bloom! [Re: orkan]
orkan Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 1745
Loc: Western SD
I checked the lot numbers on my hornady boxes and confirmed same thing you did. Definitely hornady ammo in these federal boxes. Strange to me that the federal boxed stuff is better in every way than the hornady boxed stuff.

Did federal tech have anything to say about that? In my CZ, all hornady looks over-pressure. All federal looks fine.

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#3207549 - 07/08/19 10:01 AM Re: Prickly Pear are in bloom! [Re: orkan]
orkan Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 1745
Loc: Western SD
Went out for a few hours yesterday. It was rough! Winds from 15-25mph. These little 17's just do not play well in that kind of condition. My hit percentage inside 150yds was 90+ percent, but outside that, it dropped dramatically. I'd guess it at about 15-20% at 300yds, which is normally at least 75% with this rifle. Didn't stop me from killing a few at that distance, with the far shot of the day being 375yds with a first round hit... but it was a 12:00 straight into the wind shot with a fair share of luck involved no doubt. Fired 150rnds and killed about 100 pdogs. That wind really crapped up my percentage. I had to wait a long time between shots to let the closer ones peek out.

Here's a couple crawling around at 305yds. Ended up killing them both, but it took a few rounds each. Holding over 7 tenths of a mil and about 3 mils into the wind made things interesting.



There were plenty of targets, but I tried to be selective about my shots to ensure solid hits. Normally I'd have no hesitation with a 200yd headshot, but this day I waited for at least half of their body to show. I was setup facing directly into the wind, with pdogs on my front, left, and right. The aerodynamic jump as I switched from 9:00 wind to 3:00 wind was astonishing. As much as 6 tenths of elevation correction accompanied the reversed wind call. That is a ridiculous amount of jump for a 200yd firing solution.




I still went for headshots on the closer mounds. Anything inside 150yds still got their melon exploded. It was still a challenge, having to hold somewhere around half a mil on a 100yd target. Not to mention the wind gusts slamming into me and the rifle/tripod. Timing had to be just perfect.


Plenty were killed, but by the end of it I was definitely wishing I had my 22 creedmoor with 80gr bergers, or my 6 dasher with 105 hybrids. Would have been able to clean up out to 600yds with either of those tools. Having said that, it's fun to challenge yourself once in a while. My hit percentage steadily rose throughout the day, as I locked into conditions in each section of mounds. I was able to get very confident out to 200yds. In those conditions I'll consider it a success.




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#3207574 - 07/08/19 05:41 PM Re: Prickly Pear are in bloom! [Re: orkan]
orkan Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 1745
Loc: Western SD
Forgot a picture from yesterday. A bald eagle came by to say hello and see how I was progressing on creating snacks for him.



Today was very hot and humid. Wind was dead, which was nice for shooting but terrible for sitting in the sun.





Killed about 140, including this monstrous specimen. Took the 20gr 17cal bullet to the chest and held it on this perfect 200yd shot! *THUMP!* and just tipped over where it stood. This is fairly typical out at 300yds and beyond... but rarely are they so big that it happens at 200yds as this one did.


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#3207713 - 07/11/19 12:32 AM Re: Prickly Pear are in bloom! [Re: B23]
reb8600 Offline
Global Moderator

Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 10743
Loc: Morgan, Utah
Originally Posted By: B23
And those would be Hornady Lot#'s.

To double check myself, so I wasn't spreading bad information, I talked to Federal again earlier today. The Tech I talk to was great and very willing to share/give out information. He confirmed what I'd been told before, and to date, all of the Federal AE ammo for the 17 Hornet is made for them by Hornady. I asked if Federal had different specs than the Hornady labeled ammo, he said no and everything is the same with the exception of the headstamp on the brass.

He did tell me Federal had plans to start making their own 17 Hornet ammo in house but they hadn't done so as of yet. I asked him, for future reference, once their in house made 17 Hornet ammo hits the shelf, how will we be able to tell the difference between it and the stuff made by Hornady, he said Federal uses a whole different Lot# sequence than does Hornady. Hornady Lot#'s are numbers only, like your boxes have, where as Federal uses letters and numbers in their Lot#'s.

I also asked about the odd cases we often see. He said he fields calls on this all the time and actually had some on his desk a customer had sent back. He told me nearly 100% of the calls he takes regarding this is from people with CZ 527 17 Hornets and they usually all say the same thing, it shoots fine but the brass comes out looking odd.



Hornady needs to do a better job on their own ammo if that is the case. Everything about the Federal is better than anything with the Hornady name on it. The brass, accuracy and consistency puts Hornady ammo to shame.

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#3208272 - 07/20/19 11:24 PM Re: Prickly Pear are in bloom! [Re: reb8600]
B23 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 2035
Loc: Pacific NW
Originally Posted By: reb8600
Originally Posted By: B23
And those would be Hornady Lot#'s.

To double check myself, so I wasn't spreading bad information, I talked to Federal again earlier today. The Tech I talk to was great and very willing to share/give out information. He confirmed what I'd been told before, and to date, all of the Federal AE ammo for the 17 Hornet is made for them by Hornady. I asked if Federal had different specs than the Hornady labeled ammo, he said no and everything is the same with the exception of the headstamp on the brass.

He did tell me Federal had plans to start making their own 17 Hornet ammo in house but they hadn't done so as of yet. I asked him, for future reference, once their in house made 17 Hornet ammo hits the shelf, how will we be able to tell the difference between it and the stuff made by Hornady, he said Federal uses a whole different Lot# sequence than does Hornady. Hornady Lot#'s are numbers only, like your boxes have, where as Federal uses letters and numbers in their Lot#'s.

I also asked about the odd cases we often see. He said he fields calls on this all the time and actually had some on his desk a customer had sent back. He told me nearly 100% of the calls he takes regarding this is from people with CZ 527 17 Hornets and they usually all say the same thing, it shoots fine but the brass comes out looking odd.



Hornady needs to do a better job on their own ammo if that is the case. Everything about the Federal is better than anything with the Hornady name on it. The brass, accuracy and consistency puts Hornady ammo to shame.


reb8600, your Fed AE ammo very well may shoot better for you than the Hornady labeled stuff and I certainly believe you when you say it does, but, unfortunately, whether you like it or not, it's still Hornady ammo, just with FC headstamp and a different wrapper.

orkin was kind enough to send me some of his fired brass with the FC headstamp as well as some of his Hornady fired brass. I measured, weighed, and checked case volume in water.

I compared orkin's fired brass from his gun to the brass that has come out of both of my CZ 527 17 Hornets.

New unfired brass and new loaded ammo very consistently measures 1.046-1.047 from base to shoulder datum. Fired brass from orkin's, as well as both of my CZ 527's, measures 1.0505 - 1.0570 with most of them coming in at 1.0505 - 1.0555. As you can see, this stuff is moving forward a lot.

Case weight tends to be a little all over the place. I weighed all of orkin's brass, less primer, the FC stamped brass ranged 49.7-50.2 and his Hornady stamped brass was 51.3-52.3 I have some Hornady brass that weighs 50.2 avg and some older stuff that weighs 52.7 avg.

Fired brass all seems to have about the same case volume of 14.7gr H2O regardless of what it weighs empty, but new unfired brass that I've measured varies from 13.85gr h20 to 14.35gr h2O and for the most part, the new brass that weighed in the low 50's had the slightly larger case capacity.

Neck thickness is another item that tends to have a pretty healthy variance and ranged from .009 - .0115

Orkin's FC brass all measured .009-.0095 but his Hornady brass was .011-.115 My older Hornady Lot# stuff measures .011 but my newer Hornady brass is thinner and is .0095-.010

It seems the newest Hornady brass, whether it has a FC or Hornady headstamp, seems to be a little lighter in weight, have a bit more case volume, before it's fired, and have a little thinner necks.

Sooo, I think if a person wants to try and squeeze the most accuracy possible from his reloaded ammo in their 17 Hornet, it would probably be a good idea to keep your brass separated based on their Lot #'s. And, since there is a fair amount of variance in neck thickness, if you want consistent neck tension, you may want to invest in a bushing die. I have a Redding FL bushing die as well as a bushing only neck sizing die, it'll be interesting to see which one produces better shooting ammo.

I can definitely see how or why folks are getting case separation with these things because if someone is sizing their brass all the way back to SAAMI or Hornady book spec of 1.047 they are working the bejeezus out of their brass.

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