Arizona- Sunday, May 12 is deadline to submit public comment on proposal to restrict predator hunting contests


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Don't you think the same arguments in this thread could be made to ban night hunting in your state. Sloppy hunters up all night doing drugs to stay awake and killing every animal that comes to the call even illegal ones or pets. Come on you know it happens.

What's illegal is already against the law. Why punish the majority of legal hunters by banning something they enjoy?

Also, are you saying if there were no prizes involved you would be OK with contests ? Doubt it.
I am going to call it like I see it and you don't like contests because you think a ban would increase the number of coyotes you kill. And if we are all honest that's the biggest reason against contests, but nobody here has the brass to say it is.
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Never had a landowner with an issue hunting coyotes at night, but have gotten an ear full regarding contests. They approve of and welcome "hunting"(day or night) but have been so negatively impacted by contests that they despise them.

Nice to hear everything that's illegal is already outlawed.

Landowners hate contests and it's not because I may have less coyotes to kill because of them. I'm against them for all the reasons i've already stated.
 
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I have said way too much already here. Far exceeded my quota. And my words are apparently not being understood anyway.

It's not like I'm passionate about this subject either. I just found the problem interesting. The problem being, how would I go about supporting contests to make some of you happy. What do I say to the non-hunters to change their minds. I appreciate the attempt that was made, but I haven't really got a workable answer to that. And I don't have one of my own.

So, I'm just going to listen, from here out. Y'all will hear no more from me on contests. But I'll be listening to what you all have to say.

- DAA
 
poor character will exist regardless of legality or illegality of an event.

I have participated in contests. I have participated in them with some very fine and ethical hunters. I have also participated in them with those "other" types. I don't enter contests to win. Sounds silly but it is true. I enjoy the camaraderie. I enjoy the laughs and the dinner at the end. I have done well in these tournaments, but I don't CARE. I just want to see my friends and meet like minded new friends.

I couldn't care less if I ever hunted another one. BUT I do NOT one them banned.

In my opinion, I do not think the contests "cause" the behavior of "those" types. It is already there. A contest may EXPOSE poor character to the public though, However, These are the same guys who take their rzrs out on weekends and destroy nature, leave campsites filthy and speed on the highway carelessly.

So what do we do?

How do you legislate class and character?

Only by giving up YOUR liberties.

Think real hard before you advocate banning something just because YOU don't like it. Every foothold THEY get is one step closer to YOU.

Be a good example to the youth. Do the right thing even when nobody is watching. Help others.

Prove THEM wrong by your actions, not your words.
 
I have been contest hunting for 22 yrs and have won and placed in the top ten for 20 of those 22 yrs mostly in the World Championships, but Ive hunted quite a few others.....First of all I can count the "cheaters" on one hand...I have never seen anyone do drugs to participate so to see all the posts about aborant behavior at calling contests is funny to me...I have competed at the highest levels for a long time and do so to gage where we could place against what I consider the best coyote hunters in the land. The friends I have met, LIFE LONG some have become could not be replaced, to see states ban contest hunting is the saddest thing I have ever seen. Most who dont like contests have never really entered one, those that hunt the gas station, bar, small sport shop hunts dont have a clue what goes on in the "bigger" hunts...those that would be fine with all contests going away are truly just letting the antis chip away at the ultimate goal of doing away with all HUNTING....If you think for a second that if contests get banned they wont go for the whole enchilada in a few short years your kidding yourself..The opportunities that contest calling can open for a guy far outways the negatives, win a few and you can open doors that you didnt even know where there. Just meeting, hanging out, telling stories truly is the best part and the good stuff of a calling contest, I have learned more about coyotes, men, and both after an event and you cant get that anywhere else. New Mexico says no more contests....I say we run em on an Indian Reservation and give the state our middle finger while we do it...If AZ bans em we will do it there too, but the push in Oregon, NV, all over the nation really is scary. No matter what side of contest calling you fall on the truth is divided we fall. That is what project coyote is counting on, they spread their lies, to the 95% that dont hunt...only 4 % of the US population hunt, only .002 % opose it...My only goal is to show hunting, predator hunting in particular in a good light and that we are good people, doing what we have grown up doing for a very long time and that no matter how many lies they spread it wont change that what we do is honest , ethical, legal, and actually can help balance the predator prey relationship...As they chip away at our liberties I see some fellow hunters so willing to throw our little part away...then what,,,,the pointer retriever trials will be in the crosshairs,,,they pick on the coyote, bear, cougars, because it is the easiest to start with...make no mistake they want it all.....quit arguing and start fighting for our rights, dont worry about contest hunting going away,,,worry about all hunting going away.
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotOriginally Posted By: iowayotehunter76
I have a lot of respect for you Dave, but are you saying a coyote contest is solely responsible for someone doing meth? So, he only does meth when he is hunting a contest? The addiction to meth is a very strong addiction and does not take very long acquire. There are no casual meth users.
And even if all this is true, the contest runners are surely not the only people taking advantage of him. He is still making a choice. I guess I just don't believe in banning large soft drinks because a few people can't control themselves.

really? that is what you got out of what he said?
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No it isn't. I should have not quoted the whole text I guess. He does mention using meth and contest hunting in more than this post and in another earlier thread. I don't think it has anything to do with contest hunting. Or at least I don't think meth user rates are higher among contest hunters vs non contest hunters.
 
Originally Posted By: Bradsbirds

Don't you think the same arguments in this thread could be made to ban night hunting in your state. Sloppy hunters up all night doing drugs to stay awake and killing every animal that comes to the call even illegal ones or pets. Come on you know it happens.

What's illegal is already against the law. Why punish the majority of legal hunters by banning something they enjoy?

Also, are you saying if there were no prizes involved you would be OK with contests ? Doubt it.
I am going to call it like I see it and you don't like contests because you think a ban would increase the number of coyotes you kill. And if we are all honest that's the biggest reason against contests, but nobody here has the brass to say it is.
Quote:

Never had a landowner with an issue hunting coyotes at night, but have gotten an ear full regarding contests. They approve of and welcome "hunting"(day or night) but have been so negatively impacted by contests that they despise them.

Nice to hear everything that's illegal is already outlawed.

Landowners hate contests and it's not because I may have less coyotes to kill because of them. I'm against them for all the reasons i've already stated.

Playing devils advocate here, but do you think all non hunters would understand hunting in the dark ? Would you explain it to them only in a favorable context for you or describe all the dangers of night hunting? And you really don't know of any sloppy night hunters just wanting trigger time and being unsafe ?

You may find yourself in a similar situation as the contest someday is all I am saying. And your arguments for explaining contests to non hunters may get thrown back at you.
 
The biggest difference here is each individuals experience with contest hunting. It sounds like I am pretty lucky because 95% of contest around here have good ethical law abiding hunters. And there are not that many contests. Actually the ones I have participated in take a portion of the entry fees and benefit a worthy cause such as wounded warriors or shot for hope. Not to mention some contests are sponsored by pheasants forever, whitetails unlimited, or the local cattlemen'so association. So, I guess I do see positive benefits for contest hunting.

If they went away it probably wouldn't bother me that much because I only hunt 2 or 3 a year anyhow. But they are not that hard for me to defend either and I enjoy them. And I just don't see the negatives that some on here talk about. And I believe it will affect more participants than not participants because I believe those who don't like them are still a loud minority.
 
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Looks to me that the number of contests in any given area should be regulated by the Game Commission.
Rules and regulations should be posted and monitored by the Game Commission.
Participants should be on the lookout for violators and if you see something, say something.
I don't see any other way that we can keep the contests and make sure that we don't have a bunch of out-of-control meth-heads running down fences and little old ladies to get to the good spots.
I really don't think that any old bar or business should be allowed to hold a hunting contest every weekend, that just don't make sense to me.
 
I haven't read every post in this thread so forgive me if this has already been discussed.

In a lot of ways we are our own worst enemy. From a "hunting" standpoint not much has changed in the last 30-40 years. We had a lot of contests going on back then and even a lot more lenient rules to follow. The old adage, out of sight out of mind becomes relevant. Even though we were doing nothing wrong or illegal, there really wasn't an easy way to share it with the masses and therefore it wasn't viewed publicly with such distaste, because the public knew nothing or very little about it. What has changed in the last 10-15 years? Social media.

We have become a culture of people who do things more for the notoriety than the experience. I'm sure if the internet melted tomorrow and never came back half of the new hunting generation would quit hunting. No place to share their every kill. When people start sharing their every kill on facebook, instagram etc. you are asking for trouble. Way too easy for it to go viral and reach impressionable minds that know zero about hunting but are easily manipulated. IMO too many youtube rocknroll themed coyote "slaying" videos out there. Lots of bad shots, coyotes getting wounded etc. Things I don't like seeing let alone an activist that plans on using it to shut it down. Take photo's or make movies but save em for the intended audience or your buddies. Stop posting them on social media

I'm not a contest hunter. I tried one a few decades back but really wasn't my cup of tea. I'm a competitive person as well, but not with that. But at the same time I wouldn't tell someone else not to do it. As for trying to justify yourself to a non-hunter in regard to contest hunting, not going to happen. It's hard to explain a pile of rigor mortis coyotes in some parking lot as a good thing.







 
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Originally Posted By: iowayotehunter76Originally Posted By: Bradsbirds

Don't you think the same arguments in this thread could be made to ban night hunting in your state. Sloppy hunters up all night doing drugs to stay awake and killing every animal that comes to the call even illegal ones or pets. Come on you know it happens.

What's illegal is already against the law. Why punish the majority of legal hunters by banning something they enjoy?

Also, are you saying if there were no prizes involved you would be OK with contests ? Doubt it.
I am going to call it like I see it and you don't like contests because you think a ban would increase the number of coyotes you kill. And if we are all honest that's the biggest reason against contests, but nobody here has the brass to say it is.
Quote:

Never had a landowner with an issue hunting coyotes at night, but have gotten an ear full regarding contests. They approve of and welcome "hunting"(day or night) but have been so negatively impacted by contests that they despise them.

Nice to hear everything that's illegal is already outlawed.

Landowners hate contests and it's not because I may have less coyotes to kill because of them. I'm against them for all the reasons i've already stated.

Playing devils advocate here, but do you think all non hunters would understand hunting in the dark ? Would you explain it to them only in a favorable context for you or describe all the dangers of night hunting? And you really don't know of any sloppy night hunters just wanting trigger time and being unsafe ?

You may find yourself in a similar situation as the contest someday is all I am saying. And your arguments for explaining contests to non hunters may get thrown back at you.

Well stated, sir.
 
Quote:
Playing devils advocate here, but do you think all non hunters would understand hunting in the dark ? Would you explain it to them only in a favorable context for you or describe all the dangers of night hunting? And you really don't know of any sloppy night hunters just wanting trigger time and being unsafe ?

You may find yourself in a similar situation as the contest someday is all I am saying. And your arguments for explaining contests to non hunters may get thrown back at you.


We don't have 1,000+ acre ranches around here so in order to have lots of acreage to hunt it requires obtaining permission from numerous land owners and, at least in my situation, in several different counties. 100% have welcomed me night hunting and I'm thankfully still hunting properties secured several years ago. Is that "every non-hunter", no, but its 100% approval for that activity vs 100% against contests. They appreciate me being there vs not having anything to do with me being there if it was contest-related. There's really no other way to explain it. DAA explained how he was able to justify his personal hunting to his non-hunting friend and then asked for suggestions on how he could justify killing contests to his non-hunting friend.... no one has responded.
 
Originally Posted By: iowayotehunter76The biggest difference here is each individuals experience with contest hunting. It sounds like I am pretty lucky because 95% of contest around here have good ethical law abiding hunters. And there are not that many contests. Actually the ones I have participated in take a portion of the entry fees and benefit a worthy cause such as wounded warriors or shot for hope. Not to mention some contests are sponsored by pheasants forever, whitetails unlimited, or the local cattlemen'so association. So, I guess I do see positive benefits for contest hunting.

If they went away it probably wouldn't bother me that much because I only hunt 2 or 3 a year anyhow. But they are not that hard for me to defend either and I enjoy them. And I just don't see the negatives that some on here talk about. And I believe it will affect more participants than not participants because I believe those who don't like them are still a loud minority.


I think this talks about a few points I would make.
 
I would explain it the same way i have here....which obviously wouldn't be very successful as i haven't swayed yours or his opinions on the subject one bit. I find very few people are truly neutral and willing to listen to reason. Most already have an opinion formed and will very rarely sway from which way they are leaning. This is true for both sides of the coin.
 
Originally Posted By: Bradsbirds DAA explained how he was able to justify his personal hunting to his non-hunting friend and then asked for suggestions on how he could justify killing contests to his non-hunting friend.... no one has responded.
Yeah....I did.
 
Originally Posted By: Bradsbirds

We don't have 1,000+ acre ranches around here so in order to have lots of acreage to hunt it requires obtaining permission from numerous land owners and, at least in my situation, in several different counties. 100% have welcomed me night hunting and I'm thankfully still hunting properties secured several years ago. Is that "every non-hunter", no, but its 100% approval for that activity vs 100% against contests. They appreciate me being there vs not having anything to do with me being there if it was contest-related. There's really no other way to explain it. DAA explained how he was able to justify his personal hunting to his non-hunting friend and then asked for suggestions on how he could justify killing contests to his non-hunting friend.... no one has responded.

Something isn't making sense here. 100% approval for hunting but 100% against contests over a several county area ? I am in Iowa so I know all about getting permission from several land owners. And each one is a little different. Some have certain ways they want you to hunt and like the way I hunt, but some also don't care how it's done and just want coyotes dead. It's like someone in your area campaigned against contest hunters. What don't they like about the contests ? Could the guy who hunts a contest gain permission to only pleasure hunt (not contest hunt) on these properties?
 
Originally Posted By: Bradsbirds
Playing devils advocate here, but do you think all non hunters would understand hunting in the dark ? Would you explain it to them only in a favorable context for you or describe all the dangers of night hunting? And you really don't know of any sloppy night hunters just wanting trigger time and being unsafe ?

You may find yourself in a similar situation as the contest someday is all I am saying. And your arguments for explaining contests to non hunters may get thrown back at you.


We don't have 1,000+ acre ranches around here so in order to have lots of acreage to hunt it requires obtaining permission from numerous land owners and, at least in my situation, in several different counties. 100% have welcomed me night hunting and I'm thankfully still hunting properties secured several years ago. Is that "every non-hunter", no, but its 100% approval for that activity vs 100% against contests. They appreciate me being there vs not having anything to do with me being there if it was contest-related. There's really no other way to explain it. DAA explained how he was able to justify his personal hunting to his non-hunting friend and then asked for suggestions on how he could justify killing contests to his non-hunting friend.... no one has responded. [/quote]

As far as me "justifying" PERSONAL hunting to my non-hunting friends vs. "justifying" CONTEST hunting to my non-hunting friends...

There is no difference. Hunting is hunting. What are you trying to accomplish when you hunt? Let's call a spade a spade, hunters are trying to kill their prey. Many of us try to do this in the most ethical way possible, but make no mistake about it, I am trying to kill the predators I call. Kind of hard to skin them any other way, isn't it? Crocodile Dundee said so, if I recall the film correctly. Now, if a hunter is out to control the population, kinda gotta kill them for that too, dontcha? Yep. If your hunting to eat, more humane to eat them after they are dead, isn't it?

So just WHAT is so bad about contests? Is it the "possible" unethical behavior of some of the participants? So we should just automatically say that ALL contest hunters are unethical simply because they participate in contests. Then we are ALL guilty of unethical behavior simply because there are unethical hunters out there. We are ALL poachers because there are poachers out there. NO. You are guilty of the crime when you commit the crime. Not because someone else commits it.

So is it the financial part of the contests? How is a financial reward for a contest ANY worse than someone getting paid to be a guide? Aren't you profiting from the death of the animal? What about those of us who sell the hides? Aren't you profiting from the animal? What about taxidermists? Yep, profit. Uh-oh, the "P" word. Why is "profit" as bad word? I build guns that I sell that others use to kill animals. I do this at a profit. Am I an unethical person because I make profit? No.

So let's talk about the "image" myth. Contest hunters are so bad for our image. Why? Because they post pics? Ummm, I could be wrong, but I think that many of us on this forum post pics. Does that make us unethical. I don't think so. Our "image" is going to be bad to anti-hunters no matter whether you post a pic or not. Anti's hate us. They don't understand why we do what we do and they don't want to understand. I hunted for many years before forums like this existed. I CHOOSE to share my hunts with others. They can take that or leave it. Personally, I appreciate when others share so that I may learn to be better.

I hunt. I hunt predators. I enjoy it. I like the challenge. I hunt alone, I hunt with others. I mentor new hunters. I have guided. I have hunted for population control, nuisance control, fur, meat. Its ALL recreational for me. So yes, when I hunt in contests, IF I hunt in contests it's recreational. I like the added challenge, the differing strategies. Do I HAVE to hunt contests, nope. I can take them or lave them. But to outlaw them, I won't get on board with. If there is NO science behind eliminating them, then I don't agree with outlawing them. The excuses for outlawing are arbitrary at best, as I have shown. The excuses are political.

My sincere concern is that you will NOT assuage anti-hunters. It's the Death by 1000 cuts. You give them an inch they WILL take a mile. They will smell blood in the water and they will want more. They already tried to ban bobcat and mountain lion hunting in Arizona by claiming it was "trophy hunting." They tried to make hunters feel guilty for taking "trophies." So if I use the edible parts of the animal AND take a trophy, should I feel bad? Am I unethical? NO. But it was how they were justifying their position for banning the of killing these "beautiful animals" as they put it. When they couldn't get bobcat and mountain lion hunting banned, they just moved on and switched gears to go after "hunting contests."

As far as getting a 100% negative response to hunting requests just because you hunt contests, while I wasn't there for those conversations, I can't really say what objection a landowner who invites me to hunt coyotes but has an issue with me doing it if I am involved with a contest. Personally, the landowners I hunt for, don't care that I am/am not hunting in a contest. They have a problem and I offer a solution.

I have yet to have a 100% positive response from 100% of the landowners that I have asked to hunt any property. Invariably I get told no by some landowners. Some tell me why, others don't. I may or may not respectfully ask about their opposition. Sorry that I cannot get onboard with the "hunt contests" cause us to not have land to hunt argument.

I hope this cleared up some of the "questions" and positions of competition hunters. Again, if you don't like contests, then don't participate. But don't sit there in judgement of me because I do.
 
Originally Posted By: Bradsbirds

100% have welcomed me night hunting and I'm thankfully still hunting properties secured several years ago.

100%? really? dang you are good. NOBODY i know gets those kinds of results.
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would you mind posting up your opening line to the land owners? i must need to work on mine.
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotOriginally Posted By: Bradsbirds

100% have welcomed me night hunting and I'm thankfully still hunting properties secured several years ago.

100%? really? dang you are good. NOBODY i know gets those kinds of results.
unsure.gif


would you mind posting up your opening line to the land owners? i must need to work on mine.

Get a "Coyote Contests Suck" tattoo....might help you out.
 
Originally Posted By: BradsbirdsOriginally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotOriginally Posted By: Bradsbirds

100% have welcomed me night hunting and I'm thankfully still hunting properties secured several years ago.

100%? really? dang you are good. NOBODY i know gets those kinds of results.
unsure.gif


would you mind posting up your opening line to the land owners? i must need to work on mine.

Get a "Coyote Contests Suck" tattoo....might help you out.

where did you get yours? cost?
 
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