Dtech .224 vs Bolt Guns

G

GG224

New member
So, I've started Bench rest shooting this year. Since every other shooter uses only bolt guns, even though they have AR's, I wanted to see how the AR would stand up in the 100, 200, & 300 yard ground hog matches. I have never shot competition before so I didn't know I wasn't supposed to have a chance. They put me in the factory class which means any trigger they want, any front rest, scope, etc. The only real limitations are no bench rest stocks and they must have factory barrels.

My first match wasn't great- 123 out of 150 possible. My second match was better with a 134 and finished in 5th place. I was one bad shot out of second place. I'll try to post a few pics.



 
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I haven't been here in a while and I don't remember how to post an image. Can someone help with that? Remind me how to do it instead of just inserting the link?

Never mind, got it!
 
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Without the pictures I can say I am shooting 5 shot groups at 100 yds @.56" and Sub MOA at 200 and 300 yards. 3 shot groups at 200,300 yards are under .60" but I can't keep my last 2 with those groups. I end up throwing them 1 to 2 inches out of the group.

People are starting to notice what an AR, and specifically the .224 round can do. Why is this? Because I am the ONLY shooter at the range who does not reload. I open my factory box of Federal match ammo and they all look at me like I'm from another planet.
 
100 yards out of the box. This scored as a 49 - 2X. To get an X the round cannot touch the line. To get the 10 all it has to do is touch the line. X's are only used to break a tie in score.

 
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That’s not bad for an AR. Mike at Dtech knows how to build them. I love the 6x45 he built for me a few years ago.

What is the shooting rest underneath your rifle?

 
Originally Posted By: 6mm06
That’s not bad for an AR. Mike at Dtech knows how to build them. I love the 6x45 he built for me a few years ago.

What is the shooting rest underneath your rifle?



A Davies bipod...from Australia. It is a very stable well built yet simple design. Unfortunately he does not make them anymore, or only does so on a select basis. It slides into an Anshutz rail so I had to order a 5" rail and attach it.
 
I just cannot shoot an AR as well as my bolt actions. I am not bad with the AR just much better with a bolt.
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When I was shooting F-Class, I started with a 308, but switched and mostly used a 223. We only shot out to 600. Under Ideal conditions I could sometimes hold MOA. Keeping them centered in the 10 or X ring was another issue. If it touched the line we counted it as the better score, including the X ring.

Throw in the wind, mirage,etc, and God only knows where it'll go.
smile.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: CoyotejunkiI just cannot shoot an AR as well as my bolt actions. I am not bad with the AR just much better with a bolt.
smile.gif


When I was shooting F-Class, I started with a 308, but switched and mostly used a 223. We only shot out to 600. Under Ideal conditions I could sometimes hold MOA. Keeping them centered in the 10 or X ring was another issue. If it touched the line we counted it as the better score, including the X ring.

Throw in the wind, mirage,etc, and God only knows where it'll go.
smile.gif


There are a number of factors that make bolt guns more accurate, especially at longer distances. If I can get this rifle to shoot sub 1/2 MOA, like shooting in the 4's, I'll be very happy. I'm already thrilled with how accurate it is now with factory loads. More time for me behind the trigger and hand loads may do it.

The rifles that I am competing against at the top of the Factory class are Savage 12 long range precision rifles in 6.5 creedmoor with hand loads. They are a very good "off the shelf" gun with a good trigger. Most guys set their Savage competition triggers at around 10-12 oz. If they go below that they tend to set off the safety mechanism. I have a Geissele Match 2 stage trigger set at 1.5lbs. and 6oz for 2nd stage. Still getting used to it and I don't always notice the "wall" before the hammer drops.
 
Originally Posted By: GG224Originally Posted By: Coyotejunki
Throw in the wind, mirage,etc, and God only knows where it'll go.
smile.gif


There are a number of factors that make bolt guns more accurate, especially at longer distances. If I can get this rifle to shoot sub 1/2 MOA, like shooting in the 4's, I'll be very happy. I'm already thrilled with how accurate it is now with factory loads. More time for me behind the trigger and hand loads may do it.


Coyotejunki nailed it. I think your issue is a lot more the .22 caliber) than your ability with the AR. Mike builds great rifles and the AR can be just as accurate as a bolt gun IMO. Maybe not down to benchrest (thousandths of an inch) but certainly capable of cleaning your 3/4" bullseye. IOW I'd expect 1/2moa out of the rifle.

As far as your fliers @ 300, take a look at the Norma calculations for the 88 gr. 224 V with only a 5 mph full value wind is 2.76".

47989874957_63fb3e4aab_c.jpg


Sorry, can't figure out how to post a screenshot so the photo of screen will have to do. The 5 mph wind.

So a change in full value wind of only 5mph (8fps) wind velocity would explain your "flier".

Here's a couple of links you might want to check out:

Wind doping

And the NORMA BALLISTIC CALCULATOR
ETA: Note the Norma calculator is both imperial and metric and defaults to metric. Also they allow wind entries in FPS, not MPH.

Regards,
hm





 
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Originally Posted By: hm1996Originally Posted By: GG224Originally Posted By: Coyotejunki
Throw in the wind, mirage,etc, and God only knows where it'll go.
smile.gif


There are a number of factors that make bolt guns more accurate, especially at longer distances. If I can get this rifle to shoot sub 1/2 MOA, like shooting in the 4's, I'll be very happy. I'm already thrilled with how accurate it is now with factory loads. More time for me behind the trigger and hand loads may do it.


Coyotejunki nailed it. I think your issue is a lot more the .22 caliber) than your ability with the AR. Mike builds great rifles and the AR can be just as accurate as a bolt gun IMO. Maybe not down to benchrest (thousandths of an inch) but certainly capable of cleaning your 3/4" bullseye. IOW I'd expect 1/2moa out of the rifle.

As far as your fliers @ 300, take a look at the Norma calculations for the 88 gr. 224 V with only a 5 mph full value wind is 2.76".

Sorry, can't figure out how to post a screenshot so the photo of screen will have to do. The 5 mph wind.

So a change in full value wind of only 5mph (8fps) wind velocity would explain your "flier".



Regards,
hm







I am inexperienced at reading the wind- working on it. But there was no wind that day, it was me. I've read that a 168 grain .308 round can drift 22 inches at 500 yards in a 10mph wind. That surprised me how much wind does effect a heavy round like that.

The wind drift for my specific round in 10 mph wind is 5.7" @ 300yd according to Federal.

I have 4 more matches for the year. If I can put a solid 3 round score in I will post it. This rifle has shot MOA steel out to 990 yards.....with no wind:)
 
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Finally reloading! And what a difference for my initial loads. Going from Federal Factory Match 90's to 80.5 Bergers and 85 RDF Nosler's. CFE-223 powder, 205 MAR primers, & same factory brass. These are the best two groups for 200, 300 yards. I only did a few others but am not posting as they are only slightly worse and my next tests are with powder and seating depth changes to try for improvement.

Berger 80.5 with 25 grains is the picture at 200 with a .91 center to center measurement. At 300 it was still sub MOA but not great. I'm trying a powder adjustment to see if I can improve it at both distances.

Nosler 85's with 24.2 grains are a consistent 1.5" at both 200,300 yards. Making changes to improve that. The lateral spread of the 4 shots of RDF at 300 was 1.09. The dropped shot was likely due to me.

80-5-200.jpg


85-300.jpg


 
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One other step I forgot to do before reloading was to sort my bullets. This has been done for my next test. Results of sorting:

The Nosler 85 RDF weighed in at 85, 85.2, and 85.4 grains with most being 85.2.

The Berger 80.5 weighed in at 80.2, 80.5, 80.6, and 80.8 grains. 60% were 80.5/6........38% were 80.8....2% were 80.2.
 
Quote:I am inexperienced at reading the wind- working on it. But there wasno windthat day, it was me. I've read that a 168 grain .308 round can drift 22 inches at 500 yards in a 10mph wind. That surprised me how much wind does effect a heavy round like that.

"No wind" days can be as (or more) difficult at longer ranges as mirage is still (or more of) a problem. Mirage can switch directions and/or boil when there is little or no wind, thus carrying the bullseye you see with it. Favor into the mirage, as that is where the bullseye really is. Heavier bullets are less affected by wind than the lighter ones, but mirage gets 'em all equally. Think of mirage as an indicator of wind as well as a multiplier of the effect of wind. IOW, a very slight breeze may not be sufficient to blow your bullet, but the mirage will be and will carry the image of the bullseye with it.


Originally Posted By: GG224Finally reloading! And what a difference for my initial loads. Going from Federal Factory Match 90's to 80.5 Bergers and 85 RDF Nosler's. CFE-223 powder, 205 MAR primers, & same factory brass. These are the best two groups for 200, 300 yards. I only did a few others but am not posting as they are only slightly worse and my next tests are with powder and seating depth changes to try for improvement.

Berger 80.5 with 25 grains is the picture at 200 with a .91 center to center measurement. At 300 it was still sub MOA but not great. I'm trying a powder adjustment to see if I can improve it at both distances.

Nosler 85's with 24.2 grains are a consistent 1.5" at both 200,300 yards. Making changes to improve that. The lateral spread of the 4 shots of RDF at 300 was 1.09. The dropped shot was likely due to me.

80-5-200.jpg


85-300.jpg




I'm pretty happy w/.5 moa groups at 200-300 yards. Glad you're getting a handle on your Dtech. Mine shoots as accurate as my bolt guns.

Regards,
hm

 
Originally Posted By: hm1996

I'm pretty happy w/.5 moa groups at 200-300 yards. Glad you're getting a handle on your Dtech. Mine shoots as accurate as my bolt guns.

Regards,
hm



Much better now with good loads. I'm not going to go crazy chasing tighter groups, but I am going to try a few other bullets after refining the ones tested here (65's, 77's, 95's). I may end up with certain grain bullets at 100-300 yards and something different from 500-1000.
 
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Not a big fan of 3 shot groups but I only had so many bullets to work with and wanted to test different loads. It looks like the 80.5's can be loaded up to 26.5 grains of CFE-223. With the added 1/2 grain from the last test they improved by a half inch at 300 yards. I think they can do even better loaded hotter.

Best two groups were:
80.5 Berger's with 25.6 grains CFE-223: 200yds = .73

85 Nosler RDF with 24.6 grains CFE-223: 300yds = 1.10

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