Nevada Coyote Contests - Bill Carries Penalties Equal To Manslaughter
- Thread starter AllPredatorCalls
- Start date
I think the contests are disgusting. I think they are the opposite of what hunting is supposed to be. We live in a reality show sick society that has to make contest of everything. Coyote contests are for insecure idiots that need to pound on their chest to prove how bitchen they are.
I am no liberal either. I believe we have the right
To carry without permits.
To own machine guns without tax stamps
To buy a gun without a background check. If you are not in jail, you are free.
To hunt coyotes without a license. DFG does not create coyotes.
To hunt at night
To own silencers
To hunt with lead ammo (CA)
Global warming is a lie
Hillary Clinton is Satan
... and many, many more things.
Our sick society makes a contest of everything. It has infected hunting too.
I am no liberal either. I believe we have the right
To carry without permits.
To own machine guns without tax stamps
To buy a gun without a background check. If you are not in jail, you are free.
To hunt coyotes without a license. DFG does not create coyotes.
To hunt at night
To own silencers
To hunt with lead ammo (CA)
Global warming is a lie
Hillary Clinton is Satan
... and many, many more things.
Our sick society makes a contest of everything. It has infected hunting too.
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crapshoot
Well-known member
Pretty funny considering coyote hunting contests were around decades before reality TV was even thought of. I would even venture to say some of the founders may have even been from your state of California.
Again, I dont do contests. Just dont care for them. But unless scientific fact can prove it is harming the coyote population to the point of doing serious damage, I'll bedamned if I'm going to say it should be illegal.
Ranchers and governments pay for trappers, airplanes other means of predator control paid largely by sportsman. Let the people do some of the work for free and burden some of the cost and effort.
Don't have the taste for contests, don't participate like I choose not to.
Again, I dont do contests. Just dont care for them. But unless scientific fact can prove it is harming the coyote population to the point of doing serious damage, I'll bedamned if I'm going to say it should be illegal.
Ranchers and governments pay for trappers, airplanes other means of predator control paid largely by sportsman. Let the people do some of the work for free and burden some of the cost and effort.
Don't have the taste for contests, don't participate like I choose not to.
SlickerThanSnot
New member
Originally Posted By: BJJ223I never said they should be banned. I just said they are retarded.
nope. you said they are disgusting.
nope. you said they are disgusting.
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotOriginally Posted By: BJJ223I never said they should be banned. I just said they are retarded.
nope. you said they are disgusting.
That is what he said. He also said
Originally Posted By: BJJ223To buy a gun without a background check. If you are not in jail, you are free.
That comment is just plain old dumb. There are a lot of people that are not in jail that SHOULD NOT own guns. According to his statement he wants firearms in the hands of child molesters and other felons. That statement is the last thing we need to happen in this country.
nope. you said they are disgusting.
That is what he said. He also said
Originally Posted By: BJJ223To buy a gun without a background check. If you are not in jail, you are free.
That comment is just plain old dumb. There are a lot of people that are not in jail that SHOULD NOT own guns. According to his statement he wants firearms in the hands of child molesters and other felons. That statement is the last thing we need to happen in this country.
Originally Posted By: BJJ223I think the contests are disgusting. I think they are the opposite of what hunting is supposed to be. We live in a reality show sick society that has to make contest of everything. Coyote contests are for insecure idiots that need to pound on their chest to prove how bitchen they are.
I am no liberal either. I believe we have the right
To carry without permits.
To own machine guns without tax stamps
To buy a gun without a background check. If you are not in jail, you are free.
To hunt coyotes without a license. DFG does not create coyotes.
To hunt at night
To own silencers
To hunt with lead ammo (CA)
Global warming is a lie
Hillary Clinton is Satan
... and many, many more things.
Our sick society makes a contest of everything. It has infected hunting too.
Wow, you might "claim" to not be libtarded yet you deride those who decide to participate in a LEGAL sporting event. I suppose you think that ALL sporting contests are for "idiots?"
Sporting contests are well established ways to encourage ongoing education and the development of skills. Sportsmen work to get the most out of their experiences.
Why do YOU hunt coyotes? I hunt them because of the challenge. Adding in other hunters increases the difficulty and the level of challenge. Do YOU hunt them for their health? Or because YOU are bored? How do YOU justify hunting?
It is arrogant of YOU to call others "idiots" for simply choosing to participate in a sport that you choose not to participate in. You are welcome to your opinion as am I. But for YOU to call other hunters idiots makes YOU no better than anti-hunting libtards.
I am no liberal either. I believe we have the right
To carry without permits.
To own machine guns without tax stamps
To buy a gun without a background check. If you are not in jail, you are free.
To hunt coyotes without a license. DFG does not create coyotes.
To hunt at night
To own silencers
To hunt with lead ammo (CA)
Global warming is a lie
Hillary Clinton is Satan
... and many, many more things.
Our sick society makes a contest of everything. It has infected hunting too.
Wow, you might "claim" to not be libtarded yet you deride those who decide to participate in a LEGAL sporting event. I suppose you think that ALL sporting contests are for "idiots?"
Sporting contests are well established ways to encourage ongoing education and the development of skills. Sportsmen work to get the most out of their experiences.
Why do YOU hunt coyotes? I hunt them because of the challenge. Adding in other hunters increases the difficulty and the level of challenge. Do YOU hunt them for their health? Or because YOU are bored? How do YOU justify hunting?
It is arrogant of YOU to call others "idiots" for simply choosing to participate in a sport that you choose not to participate in. You are welcome to your opinion as am I. But for YOU to call other hunters idiots makes YOU no better than anti-hunting libtards.
When the contests are banned, they will go after your other hunting rights. You brought it on yourself for advocating something so stupid.
Not all liberals hate hunting. But, contests are a detestable way to get them started hating hunting.
Smooth move.
Eating food is good.
Competitive eating is a sick and glutinous perversion of something good and normal.
You are an idiot if you can’t see that.
Not all liberals hate hunting. But, contests are a detestable way to get them started hating hunting.
Smooth move.
Eating food is good.
Competitive eating is a sick and glutinous perversion of something good and normal.
You are an idiot if you can’t see that.
varminter .223
Well-known member
I don't think contests are good for the sport. I hunted one to see what it was about and won't bother with another. I think it really brings out the cheater in cheaters. I also wish people would just hunt and enjoy the sport for themselves instead of seemingly enjoying the look at me go posts on facebook afterwards. It's like they do it to impress people they don't even know or may not even like. The night hunting has gotten nuts here because everyone who wants to have the appearance of being a coyote killer figured out they can actually call one up and kill it at night with some $400 nv.
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Originally Posted By: BJJ223When the contests are banned, they will go after your other hunting rights. You brought it on yourself for advocating something so stupid.
Not all liberals hate hunting. But, contests are a detestable way to get them started hating hunting.
Smooth move.
Eating food is good.
Competitive eating is a sick and glutinous perversion of something good and normal.
You are an idiot if you can’t see that.
So do you eat your coyotes? Are you selling the pelts? Are you killing them just to kill them? Do you even actually hunt? You sound very much like an anti hunter.
Not all liberals hate hunting. But, contests are a detestable way to get them started hating hunting.
Smooth move.
Eating food is good.
Competitive eating is a sick and glutinous perversion of something good and normal.
You are an idiot if you can’t see that.
So do you eat your coyotes? Are you selling the pelts? Are you killing them just to kill them? Do you even actually hunt? You sound very much like an anti hunter.
Bradsbirds
Member
Originally Posted By: SnowmanMo.....you deride those who decide to participate in a LEGAL sporting event......
(Not addressing the "driding" part) but Everything is "legal" until it's restricted/deemed illegal based on some type of human reasoning. The reasons do not have to be "fact-based". Again, the lawful limit on Buck deer is based on so-called "facts", ie scientific/biological study of harvest information/habitat/carrying capacity, etc..... while the law requiring the meat to be retained/processed is based on ethics/morals whatever you want to call it, not "facts". Humans determined it is simply just wrong to kill a deer and throw it in a ditch thus made laws against it. The same basis of those ethics is now being expressed against coyote contests, mainly due to the dramatic influx of graphic photos and videos of piles of dead coyotes killed to win a "contest" and then discarded like trash.....humans determining it's just wrong. You can continue to say it's "legal" at least until it's made illegal, maybe not fact-based, but based on human ethics. I hunted 59 nights during the IL night season this year and enjoyed every single minute of it. I saved all the fur and all the skulls. I don't like looking at those photos myself and would not participate in one of the "contests".
Totally different discussion would be for fact-based laws, I would be interested to know when the last time an actual biological/scientific study was done on coyotes (in my state anyway) used to determine season dates/harvest rate. No limit/every day for as long as I can recall, way before the current influx of coyote hunters. Everyone can tell you every minute detail regarding the status of whitetail deer and the Mallard duck, and the money and efforts put forth to sustain/increase the populations but I wouldn't be surprised if they admitted they had no idea of the current status of coyotes and know there is no "management" practices to sustain/increase the population. IL has seldom even replaced retiring biologists the past 10 years or so....They simply give the neighboring region all the work the retiring regional biologist was in charge of resulting in a steady seat in an office.
(Not addressing the "driding" part) but Everything is "legal" until it's restricted/deemed illegal based on some type of human reasoning. The reasons do not have to be "fact-based". Again, the lawful limit on Buck deer is based on so-called "facts", ie scientific/biological study of harvest information/habitat/carrying capacity, etc..... while the law requiring the meat to be retained/processed is based on ethics/morals whatever you want to call it, not "facts". Humans determined it is simply just wrong to kill a deer and throw it in a ditch thus made laws against it. The same basis of those ethics is now being expressed against coyote contests, mainly due to the dramatic influx of graphic photos and videos of piles of dead coyotes killed to win a "contest" and then discarded like trash.....humans determining it's just wrong. You can continue to say it's "legal" at least until it's made illegal, maybe not fact-based, but based on human ethics. I hunted 59 nights during the IL night season this year and enjoyed every single minute of it. I saved all the fur and all the skulls. I don't like looking at those photos myself and would not participate in one of the "contests".
Totally different discussion would be for fact-based laws, I would be interested to know when the last time an actual biological/scientific study was done on coyotes (in my state anyway) used to determine season dates/harvest rate. No limit/every day for as long as I can recall, way before the current influx of coyote hunters. Everyone can tell you every minute detail regarding the status of whitetail deer and the Mallard duck, and the money and efforts put forth to sustain/increase the populations but I wouldn't be surprised if they admitted they had no idea of the current status of coyotes and know there is no "management" practices to sustain/increase the population. IL has seldom even replaced retiring biologists the past 10 years or so....They simply give the neighboring region all the work the retiring regional biologist was in charge of resulting in a steady seat in an office.
crapshoot
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: BradsbirdsOriginally Posted By: SnowmanMo.....you deride those who decide to participate in a LEGAL sporting event......
The same basis of those ethics is now being expressed against coyote contests, mainly due to the dramatic influx of graphic photos and videos of piles of dead coyotes killed to win a "contest" and then discarded like trash...
Not all are just tossed in the trash. Many are sold and lots of times the money raised is then donated to other areas of conservation affected by predation or just simply donated to a worthy cause.
I on the other hand hunt strictly for fun, have never sold a hide, and rarely do anything with the coyotes I've killed other than take a pick for my personal records and toss them in a ditch or bush. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to hunt a varmint that has no season or bag limit and requires no license in Nevada to hunt and can be killed pretty much any way you want and is only regulated when it pertains to trapping or sales for profit?
Let's not forget the service these hunters are providing for ranchers, f&g departments, and local wildlife.
The same basis of those ethics is now being expressed against coyote contests, mainly due to the dramatic influx of graphic photos and videos of piles of dead coyotes killed to win a "contest" and then discarded like trash...
Not all are just tossed in the trash. Many are sold and lots of times the money raised is then donated to other areas of conservation affected by predation or just simply donated to a worthy cause.
I on the other hand hunt strictly for fun, have never sold a hide, and rarely do anything with the coyotes I've killed other than take a pick for my personal records and toss them in a ditch or bush. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to hunt a varmint that has no season or bag limit and requires no license in Nevada to hunt and can be killed pretty much any way you want and is only regulated when it pertains to trapping or sales for profit?
Let's not forget the service these hunters are providing for ranchers, f&g departments, and local wildlife.
Originally Posted By: BJJ223When the contests are banned, they will go after your other hunting rights. You brought it on yourself for advocating something so stupid.
Not all liberals hate hunting. But, contests are a detestable way to get them started hating hunting.
Smooth move.
Eating food is good.
Competitive eating is a sick and glutinous perversion of something good and normal.
You are an idiot if you can’t see that.
WOW, you have no actual logical argument, you avoid my points AND you throw insults. Nice. You never confronted the point about sports, instead threw out some weak argument about eating contests. Stay on point.
You want to bend to the anti's will, by all means, do it. You argument about them "going after your other hunting rights" is pathetic and a weak justification for you doing what you are told. There is NO guarantee that they still won’t go after your other rights. They have tried for years to ban predator hunting. They just found sympathy with folks like you.
As for getting liberals "started" hating hunting, um, hate to tell you, they already do.
Not all liberals hate hunting. But, contests are a detestable way to get them started hating hunting.
Smooth move.
Eating food is good.
Competitive eating is a sick and glutinous perversion of something good and normal.
You are an idiot if you can’t see that.
WOW, you have no actual logical argument, you avoid my points AND you throw insults. Nice. You never confronted the point about sports, instead threw out some weak argument about eating contests. Stay on point.
You want to bend to the anti's will, by all means, do it. You argument about them "going after your other hunting rights" is pathetic and a weak justification for you doing what you are told. There is NO guarantee that they still won’t go after your other rights. They have tried for years to ban predator hunting. They just found sympathy with folks like you.
As for getting liberals "started" hating hunting, um, hate to tell you, they already do.
Originally Posted By: crapshootOriginally Posted By: BradsbirdsOriginally Posted By: SnowmanMo.....you deride those who decide to participate in a LEGAL sporting event......
The same basis of those ethics is now being expressed against coyote contests, mainly due to the dramatic influx of graphic photos and videos of piles of dead coyotes killed to win a "contest" and then discarded like trash...
Not all are just tossed in the trash. Many are sold and lots of times the money raised is then donated to other areas of conservation affected by predation or just simply donated to a worthy cause.
I on the other hand hunt strictly for fun, have never sold a hide, and rarely do anything with the coyotes I've killed other than take a pick for my personal records and toss them in a ditch or bush. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to hunt a varmint that has no season or bag limit and requires no license in Nevada to hunt and can be killed pretty much any way you want and is only regulated when it pertains to trapping or sales for profit?
Let's not forget the service these hunters are providing for ranchers, f&g departments, and local wildlife.
True. I have seen contests in New Mexico where the pelts were donated to a local trappers association and others that were donated to scientific research.
Those who don't want to participate shouldn't. But they [beeep] sure shouldn't criticize those who do. They are no better than the anti's that they claim to disagree with.
The same basis of those ethics is now being expressed against coyote contests, mainly due to the dramatic influx of graphic photos and videos of piles of dead coyotes killed to win a "contest" and then discarded like trash...
Not all are just tossed in the trash. Many are sold and lots of times the money raised is then donated to other areas of conservation affected by predation or just simply donated to a worthy cause.
I on the other hand hunt strictly for fun, have never sold a hide, and rarely do anything with the coyotes I've killed other than take a pick for my personal records and toss them in a ditch or bush. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to hunt a varmint that has no season or bag limit and requires no license in Nevada to hunt and can be killed pretty much any way you want and is only regulated when it pertains to trapping or sales for profit?
Let's not forget the service these hunters are providing for ranchers, f&g departments, and local wildlife.
True. I have seen contests in New Mexico where the pelts were donated to a local trappers association and others that were donated to scientific research.
Those who don't want to participate shouldn't. But they [beeep] sure shouldn't criticize those who do. They are no better than the anti's that they claim to disagree with.
Originally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: BJJ223When the contests are banned, they will go after your other hunting rights. You brought it on yourself for advocating something so stupid.
Not all liberals hate hunting. But, contests are a detestable way to get them started hating hunting.
Smooth move.
Eating food is good.
Competitive eating is a sick and glutinous perversion of something good and normal.
You are an idiot if you can’t see that.
So do you eat your coyotes? Are you selling the pelts? Are you killing them just to kill them? Do you even actually hunt? You sound very much like an anti hunter.
I smell an anti in hunters clothing.
Not all liberals hate hunting. But, contests are a detestable way to get them started hating hunting.
Smooth move.
Eating food is good.
Competitive eating is a sick and glutinous perversion of something good and normal.
You are an idiot if you can’t see that.
So do you eat your coyotes? Are you selling the pelts? Are you killing them just to kill them? Do you even actually hunt? You sound very much like an anti hunter.
I smell an anti in hunters clothing.
varminter .223
Well-known member
I think anytime you go coyote hunting it's a contest. Mainly a contest between you and the coyote which to me is what it's about. What never tripped my trigger was saving all my spots just so I could be in a contest to try to impress people with kill numbers. I would rather pleasure hunt on my time and my schedule. I certainly don't need a contest to actually get me motivated to hunt. I used to hunt every weekend after firearm deer season. I hunted almost every Saturday and Sunday morning and evening until the night hunting came along. We sure do kill a lot more down at night but the daytime kills actually meant more since they came harder. You shouldn't need a contest with the other hunters to enjoy hunting. Like most other sports contests often times turns them into a wiener measuring contest. He who cheats the bestest wins the mostest lol. As far a activists trying to vilify shooting a coyote....well most probably support abortion at the same time which can only mean they are nuts.
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iowayotehunter76
New member
I can't believe the crap in this thread:
"I don't like contests, ban them"
"Contests hunters are a bunch of cheaters so ban the contests"
"The reason coyote hunting gets so much attention from the anti's is they post pictures of their kills on social media, so contests have got to go"
"I don't like contests, ban them"
"Contests hunters are a bunch of cheaters so ban the contests"
"The reason coyote hunting gets so much attention from the anti's is they post pictures of their kills on social media, so contests have got to go"
Originally Posted By: iowayotehunter76I can't believe the crap in this thread:
"I don't like contests, ban them"
"Contests hunters are a bunch of cheaters so ban the contests"
"The reason coyote hunting gets so much attention from the anti's is they post pictures of their kills on social media, so contests have got to go"
So true. Pretty sad. Like I have said, if you don't like a particular style/type of hunting, then don't participate. But you don't bash others for their choice to participate. Just agree to disagree and move on.
I once read a statement from anti-gun nutjob astronut Mark Kelley, who began his anti-gun rant with the statement that he was a hunter and he didn't use AR-15's so he thought they should be banned, that there was no "legitimate" use for them. He showed his TRUE colors of being a gun controller and NOT a supporter of the 2A but he tried to hide himself among us claiming to be a hunter. That is a classic fallacy, appeal to authority. Just because he is supposed to be a hunter, doesn't mean he is an expert on the AR-15 and what it can/cannot/should/should not be used for.
Just because someone chooses to not participate in a hunting contest doesn't make them less a hunter or less ethical. I hunt...a LOT. I also occasionally participate in hunting contests. Sometimes I do it because it would benefit a local group, like when the FFA sponsors one as a fund raiser. Sometimes I do it because it simply sounds like fun to really push myself, like we did for a local fox hunting contest we participated in this year. I personally could take or leave contests. But allowing them to be banned is setting up a dangerous precedent. Gun control is a great example of what can happen when dangerous precedents are allowed to snowball.
The 2A says "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Yet there are laws, infringements to the 2A. We gun owners accepted those infringements, on the premise that they really didn't hurt us too much, so why fight them. Gun controllers took that acceptance of tacit approval and to this day they continue to try and add more and more stricter gun control laws. We are victims of the law of unintended consequences.
Right now, the anti-hunting establishment has found a chink in our armor. They have tried, unsuccessfully, for years to ban various types of hunting. Deer hunting, coyote hunting, bobcat hunting, mountain lion hunting, hunting with dogs, etc. They continue to probe our defenses looking for a way in so that they can divide and conquer. For example, many states began the assault on mountain lion hunting by first proposing bans on mountain lion hunting with hounds. Those hunters who hunted with hounds objected but many other hunters who did not hunt with hounds stood idly by because they did not think that passing such measures would effect them. Today, in many of those states, mountain lion hunting is now entirely banned.
Anti hunting groups prey upon emotions. They have tried to get predator hunting banned as being nothing more than "trophy hunting" because many hunters do not use "all" of the animal. They point out the plight of these beautiful, wondrous creatures, while ignoring science completely. IF there is science that points to contest hunting as a serious threat to the coyote population, then by all means, we should look at banning it. But that is not the case. I see some hunters placing the blame for their lack of ability to hang fur on these contests. Funny, I don't think that there are contests each and every weekend in every place that people hunt. Sure, it's frustrating to put in time and effort and get skunked, but it happens, to all of us at some time. I have been out hunting and found out that a contest was happening in that area and I have still called in coyotes.
I think that what New Mex is proposing is ludicrous, as are the attacks on other hunters.
I surrender the soap box...
"I don't like contests, ban them"
"Contests hunters are a bunch of cheaters so ban the contests"
"The reason coyote hunting gets so much attention from the anti's is they post pictures of their kills on social media, so contests have got to go"
So true. Pretty sad. Like I have said, if you don't like a particular style/type of hunting, then don't participate. But you don't bash others for their choice to participate. Just agree to disagree and move on.
I once read a statement from anti-gun nutjob astronut Mark Kelley, who began his anti-gun rant with the statement that he was a hunter and he didn't use AR-15's so he thought they should be banned, that there was no "legitimate" use for them. He showed his TRUE colors of being a gun controller and NOT a supporter of the 2A but he tried to hide himself among us claiming to be a hunter. That is a classic fallacy, appeal to authority. Just because he is supposed to be a hunter, doesn't mean he is an expert on the AR-15 and what it can/cannot/should/should not be used for.
Just because someone chooses to not participate in a hunting contest doesn't make them less a hunter or less ethical. I hunt...a LOT. I also occasionally participate in hunting contests. Sometimes I do it because it would benefit a local group, like when the FFA sponsors one as a fund raiser. Sometimes I do it because it simply sounds like fun to really push myself, like we did for a local fox hunting contest we participated in this year. I personally could take or leave contests. But allowing them to be banned is setting up a dangerous precedent. Gun control is a great example of what can happen when dangerous precedents are allowed to snowball.
The 2A says "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Yet there are laws, infringements to the 2A. We gun owners accepted those infringements, on the premise that they really didn't hurt us too much, so why fight them. Gun controllers took that acceptance of tacit approval and to this day they continue to try and add more and more stricter gun control laws. We are victims of the law of unintended consequences.
Right now, the anti-hunting establishment has found a chink in our armor. They have tried, unsuccessfully, for years to ban various types of hunting. Deer hunting, coyote hunting, bobcat hunting, mountain lion hunting, hunting with dogs, etc. They continue to probe our defenses looking for a way in so that they can divide and conquer. For example, many states began the assault on mountain lion hunting by first proposing bans on mountain lion hunting with hounds. Those hunters who hunted with hounds objected but many other hunters who did not hunt with hounds stood idly by because they did not think that passing such measures would effect them. Today, in many of those states, mountain lion hunting is now entirely banned.
Anti hunting groups prey upon emotions. They have tried to get predator hunting banned as being nothing more than "trophy hunting" because many hunters do not use "all" of the animal. They point out the plight of these beautiful, wondrous creatures, while ignoring science completely. IF there is science that points to contest hunting as a serious threat to the coyote population, then by all means, we should look at banning it. But that is not the case. I see some hunters placing the blame for their lack of ability to hang fur on these contests. Funny, I don't think that there are contests each and every weekend in every place that people hunt. Sure, it's frustrating to put in time and effort and get skunked, but it happens, to all of us at some time. I have been out hunting and found out that a contest was happening in that area and I have still called in coyotes.
I think that what New Mex is proposing is ludicrous, as are the attacks on other hunters.
I surrender the soap box...
The anti-gun groups target the small group of people that own Ar-15's, knowing that if they targeted handgun owners, they'd run into a heap of resistance. They want to end gun ownership, but they know they have to do it in baby steps.
The anti-hunting groups target the small group of people that hunt predators, knowing that if they targeted big game hunters, they'd run into a heap of resistance. They want to end all hunting but they know they have to do it in baby steps.
Both groups are trying to divide and conquer, and sadly, both groups are having success, just read back through this thread and you will see their results happening in real life.
The anti-hunting groups target the small group of people that hunt predators, knowing that if they targeted big game hunters, they'd run into a heap of resistance. They want to end all hunting but they know they have to do it in baby steps.
Both groups are trying to divide and conquer, and sadly, both groups are having success, just read back through this thread and you will see their results happening in real life.
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