AZ G&F studying predator contests
- Thread starter ThomC
- Start date
We don't really have a legislative or lobbying function. I can only encourage members to do what I do - contact your legislators, make your case, write them letters or emails or make phone calls, attend meetings, write the game commission (or your state's equivalent), be a good role model, teach a kid to hunt, send money to conservation organization and gun-rights groups to fight on our behalf, and so on. Would that we could afford pro-active lobbying, but I don't see that in the cards.
What we try to contribute is a place where predator hunters can gather and exchange ideas. Where we can learn about issues facing us and other hunters and discuss how best to challenge those who would harm our sport and way of life. Where we can find solidarity in the fight against emotion-based anti-hunting advocacy. Where we can meet like-minded individuals and form bonds that make our community stronger.
What we try to contribute is a place where predator hunters can gather and exchange ideas. Where we can learn about issues facing us and other hunters and discuss how best to challenge those who would harm our sport and way of life. Where we can find solidarity in the fight against emotion-based anti-hunting advocacy. Where we can meet like-minded individuals and form bonds that make our community stronger.
Fursniper
Active member
When considering the total number of coyotes taken annually by predator contests and how much they contribute to the statewide harvest in AZ, my guess is that predator contest probably contribute about 1% of the total coyotes killed each year. The AGFD has estimated about 40,000-50,000 coyotes are taken in AZ annually. I do not see predator contests having an essential role in controlling coyote numbers statewide.
Lets say that the AGFD fought to protect predator contests. So the anti's then did a petition drive to get predator contests on a ballot initiative for voters to decide if predator contests should be allowed. I believe it would be very easy for the anti's to sway the voting public that contests are bad and unethical. We can expect the fake news media to cater to the anti's position since that is what they did when PM held their convention in Tucson a few years ago. I think historically, predator contests have done more harm than good because they tend to put hunting in a negative light.
Predator contests are not worth fighting for in the big picture of predator management. There are more significant things to protect such as allowing hunting for bobcats and lions which the anti's would love to stop.
Lets say that the AGFD fought to protect predator contests. So the anti's then did a petition drive to get predator contests on a ballot initiative for voters to decide if predator contests should be allowed. I believe it would be very easy for the anti's to sway the voting public that contests are bad and unethical. We can expect the fake news media to cater to the anti's position since that is what they did when PM held their convention in Tucson a few years ago. I think historically, predator contests have done more harm than good because they tend to put hunting in a negative light.
Predator contests are not worth fighting for in the big picture of predator management. There are more significant things to protect such as allowing hunting for bobcats and lions which the anti's would love to stop.
Fursniper
Active member
Originally Posted By: crapshootWhile I agree with most of your post, I believe all freedoms are worth fighting for. Sacrificing one in hopes of protecting the others isn't going to work.
I think the voters will support hunting if the anti's don't have justification to put hunting in a negative light. Predator contests do that and they do not represent what the purpose of hunting is for.
I think the voters will support hunting if the anti's don't have justification to put hunting in a negative light. Predator contests do that and they do not represent what the purpose of hunting is for.
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Brent Parker
New member
Fursniper I believe you give the common voter too much credit. Emotion is their voting tool. Not reason or common sence.
Originally Posted By: crapshootWhile I agree with most of your post, I believe all freedoms are worth fighting for. Sacrificing one in hopes of protecting the others isn't going to work.
^+1 to that!!!
I have written several emails to the commission and have gotten responses to many of them. Their basic argument is that, "To the extent, these contests reflect on the overall hunting community, public outrage with these events has the potential to threaten hunting as a legitimate wildlife management function,'' the agency says, in a notice of the proposed rule change. "Regulated hunting fundamentally supports wildlife conservation efforts in North America. The loss of hunting would equate to a measurable loss in conservation efforts, and would represent a failure of the Commission in its duty to preserve wildlife for the beneficial use of present and future generations." They have also made the statement that, The department said its goal is to "address social concerns associated with hunting contests that award prizes to those who kill the largest number or variety of predatory or fur-bearing animals."
There is nothing scientific about this consideration. This is entirely a social and economic issue, and the Commission is looking to avoid conflict.
I see NOTHING from the Commission that would guarantee that our basic right of hunting would be protected by caving in to the demands of the anti-hunting establishment.
If you think predator hunting is going to be safe just because the Commission bans contests, your are going to be in for a rude awakening someday.
^+1 to that!!!
I have written several emails to the commission and have gotten responses to many of them. Their basic argument is that, "To the extent, these contests reflect on the overall hunting community, public outrage with these events has the potential to threaten hunting as a legitimate wildlife management function,'' the agency says, in a notice of the proposed rule change. "Regulated hunting fundamentally supports wildlife conservation efforts in North America. The loss of hunting would equate to a measurable loss in conservation efforts, and would represent a failure of the Commission in its duty to preserve wildlife for the beneficial use of present and future generations." They have also made the statement that, The department said its goal is to "address social concerns associated with hunting contests that award prizes to those who kill the largest number or variety of predatory or fur-bearing animals."
There is nothing scientific about this consideration. This is entirely a social and economic issue, and the Commission is looking to avoid conflict.
I see NOTHING from the Commission that would guarantee that our basic right of hunting would be protected by caving in to the demands of the anti-hunting establishment.
If you think predator hunting is going to be safe just because the Commission bans contests, your are going to be in for a rude awakening someday.
Fursniper
Active member
Predator contests are a social issue, not a wildlife management issue. Stopping contests would not interfere with managing predator populations. However, not stopping contests could interfere if predator management is decided at the ballot box. The anti's will use predator contests to put all predator hunting in a negative light so the voters will close hunting on all predators species. The AGFD Commission cannot change what the voters decide. Best to get rid of predator contests in the bigger picture of protecting hunting. Let the AGFD Commission take this tool away from the anti's so they cannot use it later to fuel a ballot initiative.
DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
Contest hunters have shot themselves in the foot with the big production contests and prizes and commercializing the sport with fist pumping videos and sponsors and merchendise. It just looks really really bad, killing for fun/trophy, and this is the result.
Fishermen do it too with big contests but they are pretty much all catch and release. Big difference.
Every one of you pro-contest guys know there's a line you don't cross as a hunter because it's unethical or just looks bad. For example you don't post blood and guts pictures because you know it's frowned upon even among fellow hunters. Most pro filmed hunters will carefully wipe up blood or turn the animal over before filming or pics. We do it most of the time here, there's even a sticky here on PM about not posting graphic pics. It crosses the line of what's socially acceptable and what's not. Same with varmint hunting, diggers or wood chucks. It looks bad, don't post it cause it gives the anti's ammunition.
Indoor pistol ranges here don't allow humanoid ttargets for the same reason. B27 sure, blocky solid colored human forms sure, actual photo realistic targets no, human outline w/facial features no. It just looks bad. Agree or not, it looks bad. Even law enforcement doesn't generally use realistic human targets, it's usually blocky shapes. Major agencies anyways, exceptions being specialized units and training.
You contest hunters have made your activities known to the anti's and the way you do it "looks" bad. It looks like coyote slaughtering with fist pumps and body piles and prizes, it does not look like traditional "hunting". This is the result.
Fishermen do it too with big contests but they are pretty much all catch and release. Big difference.
Every one of you pro-contest guys know there's a line you don't cross as a hunter because it's unethical or just looks bad. For example you don't post blood and guts pictures because you know it's frowned upon even among fellow hunters. Most pro filmed hunters will carefully wipe up blood or turn the animal over before filming or pics. We do it most of the time here, there's even a sticky here on PM about not posting graphic pics. It crosses the line of what's socially acceptable and what's not. Same with varmint hunting, diggers or wood chucks. It looks bad, don't post it cause it gives the anti's ammunition.
Indoor pistol ranges here don't allow humanoid ttargets for the same reason. B27 sure, blocky solid colored human forms sure, actual photo realistic targets no, human outline w/facial features no. It just looks bad. Agree or not, it looks bad. Even law enforcement doesn't generally use realistic human targets, it's usually blocky shapes. Major agencies anyways, exceptions being specialized units and training.
You contest hunters have made your activities known to the anti's and the way you do it "looks" bad. It looks like coyote slaughtering with fist pumps and body piles and prizes, it does not look like traditional "hunting". This is the result.
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGContest hunters have shot themselves in the foot with the big production contests and prizes and commercializing the sport with fist pumping videos and sponsors and merchendise. It just looks really really bad, killing for fun/trophy, and this is the result.
So YOU don't use ANY commercial products while you hunt? YOU have never watched a sponsored predator hunting video? Do they not have fist pumping in those videos? Are those videos not intended to make money? Is that not commercialization? How about guiding? Do guides work for free?
So YOU do not hunt for fun? Do YOU not keep "trophies?"
Fishermen do it too with big contests but they are pretty much all catch and release. Big difference.
But fish do die in those contests. Not much of a difference.
Every one of you pro-contest guys know there's a line you don't cross as a hunter because it's unethical or just looks bad. For example you don't post blood and guts pictures because you know it's frowned upon even among fellow hunters. Most pro filmed hunters will carefully wipe up blood or turn the animal over before filming or pics. We do it most of the time here, there's even a sticky here on PM about not posting graphic pics. It crosses the line of what's socially acceptable and what's not. Same with varmint hunting, diggers or wood chucks. It looks bad, don't post it cause it gives the anti's ammunition.
So I assume then that YOU will be turning in your guns and hunting equipment. Since coyote hunting is not socially acceptable according to the anti's. Or ANY hunting for that matter.
Indoor pistol ranges here don't allow humanoid ttargets for the same reason. B27 sure, blocky solid colored human forms sure, actual photo realistic targets no, human outline w/facial features no. It just looks bad. Agree or not, it looks bad. Even law enforcement doesn't generally use realistic human targets, it's usually blocky shapes. Major agencies anyways, exceptions being specialized units and training.
You contest hunters have made your activities known to the anti's and the way you do it "looks" bad. It looks like coyote slaughtering with fist pumps and body piles and prizes, it does not look like traditional "hunting". This is the result.
I hate to break it to you and shatter your "reality" but we ALL make our activities known when we post pics and videos or are even seen out hunting, and that is a fact. You can try and wrap yourself in your self righteousness but the reality is that you kill coyotes and predators for sport like the rest of us. THAT makes you just as big a target as those who compete in contests. Lie to yourselves all you want. IF contests get banned, it will do NOTHING to even slow the anti's campaign against banning ALL hunting. Your arguments are the same arguments that anti's make against ALL forms of hunting. How many legitimate, legal and ethical hunters in recent years have been attacked by anti's because they have dared to hunt? We have seen it on social media time and again. Hunters viciously attacked because they dared to hunt a giraffe or a lion, or very recently a white TURKEY! Hunters will ALWAYS be the targets of the anti's. We are ALWAYS called killers, and immoral. No matter how ethically we hunt, they will simply claim we are unethical.
But I didn't think that I would have to fight those in my own sport.
So YOU don't use ANY commercial products while you hunt? YOU have never watched a sponsored predator hunting video? Do they not have fist pumping in those videos? Are those videos not intended to make money? Is that not commercialization? How about guiding? Do guides work for free?
So YOU do not hunt for fun? Do YOU not keep "trophies?"
Fishermen do it too with big contests but they are pretty much all catch and release. Big difference.
But fish do die in those contests. Not much of a difference.
Every one of you pro-contest guys know there's a line you don't cross as a hunter because it's unethical or just looks bad. For example you don't post blood and guts pictures because you know it's frowned upon even among fellow hunters. Most pro filmed hunters will carefully wipe up blood or turn the animal over before filming or pics. We do it most of the time here, there's even a sticky here on PM about not posting graphic pics. It crosses the line of what's socially acceptable and what's not. Same with varmint hunting, diggers or wood chucks. It looks bad, don't post it cause it gives the anti's ammunition.
So I assume then that YOU will be turning in your guns and hunting equipment. Since coyote hunting is not socially acceptable according to the anti's. Or ANY hunting for that matter.
Indoor pistol ranges here don't allow humanoid ttargets for the same reason. B27 sure, blocky solid colored human forms sure, actual photo realistic targets no, human outline w/facial features no. It just looks bad. Agree or not, it looks bad. Even law enforcement doesn't generally use realistic human targets, it's usually blocky shapes. Major agencies anyways, exceptions being specialized units and training.
You contest hunters have made your activities known to the anti's and the way you do it "looks" bad. It looks like coyote slaughtering with fist pumps and body piles and prizes, it does not look like traditional "hunting". This is the result.
I hate to break it to you and shatter your "reality" but we ALL make our activities known when we post pics and videos or are even seen out hunting, and that is a fact. You can try and wrap yourself in your self righteousness but the reality is that you kill coyotes and predators for sport like the rest of us. THAT makes you just as big a target as those who compete in contests. Lie to yourselves all you want. IF contests get banned, it will do NOTHING to even slow the anti's campaign against banning ALL hunting. Your arguments are the same arguments that anti's make against ALL forms of hunting. How many legitimate, legal and ethical hunters in recent years have been attacked by anti's because they have dared to hunt? We have seen it on social media time and again. Hunters viciously attacked because they dared to hunt a giraffe or a lion, or very recently a white TURKEY! Hunters will ALWAYS be the targets of the anti's. We are ALWAYS called killers, and immoral. No matter how ethically we hunt, they will simply claim we are unethical.
But I didn't think that I would have to fight those in my own sport.
Fursniper
Active member
There are 21 states that have passed legislation for hunting and fishing to be a constitutional right. AZ was the first state NOT to pass this legislation. This means that the future of hunting and fishing in AZ can be taken away at the ballot box. Here is a link for more info about it:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/environment...t-and-fish.aspx
Since hunting and fishing is not a constitutional right in AZ, this makes AZ more of a target for the anti's. We cannot afford to give them any leverage at the ballot box. AZ does not have the support from the voters to protect predator contests and that means the AGFD Commission does not have the horsepower to fight it. If they tried, the anti's could take their case to the voters. Let's not open that door.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/environment...t-and-fish.aspx
Since hunting and fishing is not a constitutional right in AZ, this makes AZ more of a target for the anti's. We cannot afford to give them any leverage at the ballot box. AZ does not have the support from the voters to protect predator contests and that means the AGFD Commission does not have the horsepower to fight it. If they tried, the anti's could take their case to the voters. Let's not open that door.
Pa. Mick
Well-known member
Mo , good to see you are pro active in your state !!! Any loss to our sport is not good so I thank you for your efforts ! Whether you’re for or against contests, it is one of our freedoms. Just like entering a big buck contest etc. someone can always find fault in it just because they personally don’t agree.
There is ALWAYS going to be someone opposed to your opinion !
The fact is the guys hunting the contests do help reduce some predators ! Not for everyone.
Kind of like watching something on TV, if you don’t like what’s on, TURN THE CHANNEL !
Happy hunting !
There is ALWAYS going to be someone opposed to your opinion !
The fact is the guys hunting the contests do help reduce some predators ! Not for everyone.
Kind of like watching something on TV, if you don’t like what’s on, TURN THE CHANNEL !
Happy hunting !
Originally Posted By: Fursniper Best to get rid of predator contests in the bigger picture of protecting hunting. Let the AGFD Commission take this tool away from the anti's so they cannot use it later to fuel a ballot initiative.
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
Fursniper
Active member
Originally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: Fursniper Best to get rid of predator contests in the bigger picture of protecting hunting. Let the AGFD Commission take this tool away from the anti's so they cannot use it later to fuel a ballot initiative.
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
My comment is about how anti's would do away with all predator hunting in a ballot initiative. They will use predator contests as a tool to justify closing all predator species to hunting. Get rid of predator contest and it takes away their best ammunition to convince the voters.
I'm not sure how you interpreted my comments to imply that anti's only want to stop contests.
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
My comment is about how anti's would do away with all predator hunting in a ballot initiative. They will use predator contests as a tool to justify closing all predator species to hunting. Get rid of predator contest and it takes away their best ammunition to convince the voters.
I'm not sure how you interpreted my comments to imply that anti's only want to stop contests.
Originally Posted By: FursniperOriginally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: Fursniper Best to get rid of predator contests in the bigger picture of protecting hunting. Let the AGFD Commission take this tool away from the anti's so they cannot use it later to fuel a ballot initiative.
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
My comment is about how anti's would do away with all predator hunting in a ballot initiative. They will use predator contests as a tool to justify closing all predator species to hunting. Get rid of predator contest and it takes away their best ammunition to convince the voters.
I'm not sure how you interpreted my comments to imply that anti's only want to stop contests.
Your comments keep pointing to taking away "their ammunition" to keep them from attacking predator hunting in general. Reb is right, Project Coyote didn't mention contests in the past when they have gone after predator hunting. HSUS didn't mention contests when they went after bobcat and mountain lion hunting in AZ.
So it is illogical to think that giving them contests will guarentee continued predator hunting. That is the same thinking used by people to justify more and more gun laws and bans. If we just give up the guns they don't like we'll be able to keep others. Has that done ANYTHING to slow the anti-gun establishment? Not a thing. You think for even a second that giving up contests mean you won't see ballot measures attempted by anti's?
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
My comment is about how anti's would do away with all predator hunting in a ballot initiative. They will use predator contests as a tool to justify closing all predator species to hunting. Get rid of predator contest and it takes away their best ammunition to convince the voters.
I'm not sure how you interpreted my comments to imply that anti's only want to stop contests.
Your comments keep pointing to taking away "their ammunition" to keep them from attacking predator hunting in general. Reb is right, Project Coyote didn't mention contests in the past when they have gone after predator hunting. HSUS didn't mention contests when they went after bobcat and mountain lion hunting in AZ.
So it is illogical to think that giving them contests will guarentee continued predator hunting. That is the same thinking used by people to justify more and more gun laws and bans. If we just give up the guns they don't like we'll be able to keep others. Has that done ANYTHING to slow the anti-gun establishment? Not a thing. You think for even a second that giving up contests mean you won't see ballot measures attempted by anti's?
Originally Posted By: Pa. MickMo , good to see you are pro active in your state !!! Any loss to our sport is not good so I thank you for your efforts ! Whether you’re for or against contests, it is one of our freedoms. Just like entering a big buck contest etc. someone can always find fault in it just because they personally don’t agree.
There is ALWAYS going to be someone opposed to your opinion !
The fact is the guys hunting the contests do help reduce some predators ! Not for everyone.
Kind of like watching something on TV, if you don’t like what’s on, TURN THE CHANNEL !
Happy hunting !
Thanks Mick. There are a lot of things I don't like that I don't participate in that I don't try to stop. I can agree to disagree. I can't turn a blind eye and pretend that laying down will do anything but invite more attacks from the anti's.
The slow erosion of our sport is a tried and true anti tactic, sadly, it seems effective.
There is ALWAYS going to be someone opposed to your opinion !
The fact is the guys hunting the contests do help reduce some predators ! Not for everyone.
Kind of like watching something on TV, if you don’t like what’s on, TURN THE CHANNEL !
Happy hunting !
Thanks Mick. There are a lot of things I don't like that I don't participate in that I don't try to stop. I can agree to disagree. I can't turn a blind eye and pretend that laying down will do anything but invite more attacks from the anti's.
The slow erosion of our sport is a tried and true anti tactic, sadly, it seems effective.
I believe that if animal is consider a nuisance it should be removed. Population control should be dictated by them and only them. Its up to ECON to determine what species are protected as well as unprotected based on the state, county, town etc.. I thought that's what they were getting paid for.
I don't blame anyone for being upset with pictures that show animals thrown in a pile like trash. In my opinion it shows others a falseness about us, like we don't care about the animal.
NYS. I love my Governor. Its okay to raise my taxes, take away my gun rights, my contests ETC.. As long as you give anyone that raise their hand benefits such as SNAP, Section 8 , Heap, Money for PTSD because your stressing them out. And soon you they be eligible to buy pot. That makes me soooo happy.
I don't blame anyone for being upset with pictures that show animals thrown in a pile like trash. In my opinion it shows others a falseness about us, like we don't care about the animal.
NYS. I love my Governor. Its okay to raise my taxes, take away my gun rights, my contests ETC.. As long as you give anyone that raise their hand benefits such as SNAP, Section 8 , Heap, Money for PTSD because your stressing them out. And soon you they be eligible to buy pot. That makes me soooo happy.
Originally Posted By: FursniperOriginally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: Fursniper Best to get rid of predator contests in the bigger picture of protecting hunting. Let the AGFD Commission take this tool away from the anti's so they cannot use it later to fuel a ballot initiative.
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
My comment is about how anti's would do away with all predator hunting in a ballot initiative. They will use predator contests as a tool to justify closing all predator species to hunting. Get rid of predator contest and it takes away their best ammunition to convince the voters.
I'm not sure how you interpreted my comments to imply that anti's only want to stop contests.
I did not interpret your comments to mean the antis want to only stop contests. I am saying that giving up contests is not going to stop them and is not the only thing they are after. Give an inch and they will take a mile.
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
My comment is about how anti's would do away with all predator hunting in a ballot initiative. They will use predator contests as a tool to justify closing all predator species to hunting. Get rid of predator contest and it takes away their best ammunition to convince the voters.
I'm not sure how you interpreted my comments to imply that anti's only want to stop contests.
I did not interpret your comments to mean the antis want to only stop contests. I am saying that giving up contests is not going to stop them and is not the only thing they are after. Give an inch and they will take a mile.
Originally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: FursniperOriginally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: Fursniper Best to get rid of predator contests in the bigger picture of protecting hunting. Let the AGFD Commission take this tool away from the anti's so they cannot use it later to fuel a ballot initiative.
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
My comment is about how anti's would do away with all predator hunting in a ballot initiative. They will use predator contests as a tool to justify closing all predator species to hunting. Get rid of predator contest and it takes away their best ammunition to convince the voters.
I'm not sure how you interpreted my comments to imply that anti's only want to stop contests.
I did not interpret your comments to mean the antis want to only stop contests. I am saying that giving up contests is not going to stop them and is not the only thing they are after. Give an inch and they will take a mile.
So true
I would have to disagree. You also know that is not true. Look at Project Coyote right there in Arizona. They are not targeting just contests. They want to due away with all predator hunting.
My comment is about how anti's would do away with all predator hunting in a ballot initiative. They will use predator contests as a tool to justify closing all predator species to hunting. Get rid of predator contest and it takes away their best ammunition to convince the voters.
I'm not sure how you interpreted my comments to imply that anti's only want to stop contests.
I did not interpret your comments to mean the antis want to only stop contests. I am saying that giving up contests is not going to stop them and is not the only thing they are after. Give an inch and they will take a mile.
So true