Revocable Trust
- Thread starter DoubleUp
- Start date
DoubleUp
Well-known member
Thanks for the reply reb. Do you mean you just got approved or just filed the paperwork? The reason I'm asking is because a buddy of mine just got his paperwork sent back and was told by ATF that his wife who is Successor Trustee also has to file forms, photos, and fingerprints.
That is definitely not what I was told, but I need to hear from someone who got their paperwork through without having to file forms, photos, and fingerprints for the Successor Trustee.
That is definitely not what I was told, but I need to hear from someone who got their paperwork through without having to file forms, photos, and fingerprints for the Successor Trustee.
My wife does not have an interest in suppressors and only wanted to be able to make it easier to deal with after my passing. For that reason, she was listed as a successor trustee. My class 3 dealer received an error letter from the ATF requiring the wife's prints and paperwork. I had to provide that to the agent in order to correct the error report. My trust came from Dakota Silencer and they had discussed the situation with the ATF and had an agreement that it was not necessary for successor trustees to provide prints and paperwork. This was communicated to the ATF agent that submitted the error letter and she agreed...after she got my wife's prints and paperwork. It cost me about $60 for passport pictures, traveling too and fro and phone calls to process the extra prints and get it all ironed out. I finally got approval after a lot of extra effort. Dealing with the ATF is not as straight forward as it should be.
Last edited:
ARCOREY
New member
I filed mine a good while back and have 1 item done in my trust. I didn't have to provide finger prints for grantor, trustee, or beneficiaries. Just name, SS, and addresses for all. I put my buddy in my trust that helped do my form 1 can so he could possess the parts as we were making it. My attorney told me that anyone in the trust over the age of 18 could have possession that way. I was the only one that could add or remove members or items as grantor. My buddy would administer the trust like an executor of a will upon my passing and his children, the beneficiaries, would take ownership dissolving the trust and negating further stamps or applications.
Plant.One
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: DoubleUpDoes a Successor Trustee have to send in photos and fingerprint cards or is that only for Co-Trustee? I was told only Co-Trustee? Which is it? Anybody know for sure?
as i understand it.....
anyone who is a "responsible person" defined as someone able to posses trust property will need to submit prints and photos.
in my trust successor trustee's are also beneficiary's, and therefore a "responsible person". and need to submit prints.
however....the language of your trust may or may designate the successor trustee a responsible person.
i would advise consulting the lawyer who drafted your trust to know for sure.
of course, if you submit the paperwork without prints and photos for the designated successor trustee and it gets rejected - you'll find out that way too. but a phone call to consult with whoever drafted your trust is probably simpler - and quicker!
HTH
as i understand it.....
anyone who is a "responsible person" defined as someone able to posses trust property will need to submit prints and photos.
in my trust successor trustee's are also beneficiary's, and therefore a "responsible person". and need to submit prints.
however....the language of your trust may or may designate the successor trustee a responsible person.
i would advise consulting the lawyer who drafted your trust to know for sure.
of course, if you submit the paperwork without prints and photos for the designated successor trustee and it gets rejected - you'll find out that way too. but a phone call to consult with whoever drafted your trust is probably simpler - and quicker!
HTH
I have the trust that was supplied to me by Dakota Silencer. In it, my wife was designated as a Successor Trustee. The ATF agent noted an error and required her to provide prints and paperwork. I contacted folks at Dakota and they explained to me that they had an agreement with ATF legal department to the effect that prints and paperwork were NOT required. That position was explained to the agent in an email and she agreed to that position. This agreement occurred after I had sent in the prints and paperwork. It is my understanding that the current position of the BATFE is that prints and paperwork are not required of a Successor Trustee. It would seem from doubleup's experience that they are not required of a Co-Trustee either as he was not required to provide them. Both of our suppressors are Varminter 4.0's from Dakota and were purchased at about the same time. We both filed Dakota Silencer Trusts and both have been approved at this time. Mine was approved on April 1. It does not seem that prints and paperwork are required now for either case. I'd say that the ATF rule 41F created quite some confusion that is now being sorted out. It would be good to research it.
Co-trustee's and successor trustees are not the same thing. Co-trustee is another "responsible person" that administers the trust. ANYONE that is on your trust as a Trustee will submit their prints and photo. A successor is a beneficiary, and as such, is NOT a responsible person or party when the trust is formed. They would not have to provide their prints and paperwork until and unless the trust passes, when you die.
I have had both dealers and ATF notice that I have "beneficiaries" on my trust and try to claim they need to provide prints and photos. Once I point out that they are "beneficiaries" and are NOT "trustees" they back away from their position.
Not everyone in the ATF offices is as up to speed on the laws as they should be to administer them. SNAFU.
I have had both dealers and ATF notice that I have "beneficiaries" on my trust and try to claim they need to provide prints and photos. Once I point out that they are "beneficiaries" and are NOT "trustees" they back away from their position.
Not everyone in the ATF offices is as up to speed on the laws as they should be to administer them. SNAFU.
SNAFU is a great description of the situation. Not the first time it's been applied to a government operation and still very appropriate. I'm glad that doubleup and I both have our suppressors now. It's been a trial. I hope that anyone else heading down this path has some preparation for what they might face. Dakota Silencer was a great aid through all this and a place I can recommend to any that might consider them as a source for a suppressor. In addition their product seems to be top notch, but I'll know more about that when I put it to use.
Plant.One
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: SnowmanMoCo-trustee's and successor trustees are not the same thing. Co-trustee is another "responsible person" that administers the trust. ANYONE that is on your trust as a Trustee will submit their prints and photo. A successor is a beneficiary, and as such, is NOT a responsible person or party when the trust is formed. They would not have to provide their prints and paperwork until and unless the trust passes, when you die.
I have had both dealers and ATF notice that I have "beneficiaries" on my trust and try to claim they need to provide prints and photos. Once I point out that they are "beneficiaries" and are NOT "trustees" they back away from their position.
Not everyone in the ATF offices is as up to speed on the laws as they should be to administer them. SNAFU.
not all trusts are identical - and therefore different rules will apply. it depends on the language of your trust.
in some trusts "beneficiaries" ARE responsible persons and would need to submit the required documentation. My trust is one such example.
the difference between a beneficiary and a trustee in my trust is that trustees are the only ones allowed to add/remove property to/from the trust, and beneficiary's are only allowed to utilize trust property. this allows me to manage who can and cannot do what with my trust's property. it gives me a legal vehicle to protect my property within the trust.
if your trust only allows trustee's - you have to be sure that at some indeterminate point in the future that one of those trustee's doesn't decide to sell said trust property. or as an example do so in retribution for some perceived (or real) debt owed to them. as a trustee they would have every right to do so - again at least in my trusts language.
in others they (beneficiaries) are not able to posses trust property until some point in the future - not responsible persons until that change happens - and therefore dont need to submit any documentation.
I have had both dealers and ATF notice that I have "beneficiaries" on my trust and try to claim they need to provide prints and photos. Once I point out that they are "beneficiaries" and are NOT "trustees" they back away from their position.
Not everyone in the ATF offices is as up to speed on the laws as they should be to administer them. SNAFU.
not all trusts are identical - and therefore different rules will apply. it depends on the language of your trust.
in some trusts "beneficiaries" ARE responsible persons and would need to submit the required documentation. My trust is one such example.
the difference between a beneficiary and a trustee in my trust is that trustees are the only ones allowed to add/remove property to/from the trust, and beneficiary's are only allowed to utilize trust property. this allows me to manage who can and cannot do what with my trust's property. it gives me a legal vehicle to protect my property within the trust.
if your trust only allows trustee's - you have to be sure that at some indeterminate point in the future that one of those trustee's doesn't decide to sell said trust property. or as an example do so in retribution for some perceived (or real) debt owed to them. as a trustee they would have every right to do so - again at least in my trusts language.
in others they (beneficiaries) are not able to posses trust property until some point in the future - not responsible persons until that change happens - and therefore dont need to submit any documentation.
Originally Posted By: Plant.OneOriginally Posted By: SnowmanMoCo-trustee's and successor trustees are not the same thing. Co-trustee is another "responsible person" that administers the trust. ANYONE that is on your trust as a Trustee will submit their prints and photo. A successor is a beneficiary, and as such, is NOT a responsible person or party when the trust is formed. They would not have to provide their prints and paperwork until and unless the trust passes, when you die.
I have had both dealers and ATF notice that I have "beneficiaries" on my trust and try to claim they need to provide prints and photos. Once I point out that they are "beneficiaries" and are NOT "trustees" they back away from their position.
Not everyone in the ATF offices is as up to speed on the laws as they should be to administer them. SNAFU.
not all trusts are identical - and therefore different rules will apply. it depends on the language of your trust.
in some trusts "beneficiaries" ARE responsible persons and would need to submit the required documentation. My trust is one such example.
the difference between a beneficiary and a trustee in my trust is that trustees are the only ones allowed to add/remove property to/from the trust, and beneficiary's are only allowed to utilize trust property. this allows me to manage who can and cannot do what with my trust's property. it gives me a legal vehicle to protect my property within the trust.
if your trust only allows trustee's - you have to be sure that at some indeterminate point in the future that one of those trustee's doesn't decide to sell said trust property. or as an example do so in retribution for some perceived (or real) debt owed to them. as a trustee they would have every right to do so - again at least in my trusts language.
in others they (beneficiaries) are not able to posses trust property until some point in the future - not responsible persons until that change happens - and therefore dont need to submit any documentation.
Very good point.
Here is the definition of a responsible person according to the ATF:
In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and polices of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.
In the case of a TRUST, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust. Image of a gun with a supressor
Examples of who may be considered a responsible person of a trust or legal entity include:
Settlors/Grantors
Trustees
Partners
Members
Officers
Board members
Owners
Beneficiaries – if said beneficiary has the capability to exercise any of the powers or authorities enumerated above.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulation...nsible%20Person
So it's not hard to see why it might take so long since each trust would have to be gone over with a fine tooth comb to verify the exact definitions since trusts can vary so much.
I have had both dealers and ATF notice that I have "beneficiaries" on my trust and try to claim they need to provide prints and photos. Once I point out that they are "beneficiaries" and are NOT "trustees" they back away from their position.
Not everyone in the ATF offices is as up to speed on the laws as they should be to administer them. SNAFU.
not all trusts are identical - and therefore different rules will apply. it depends on the language of your trust.
in some trusts "beneficiaries" ARE responsible persons and would need to submit the required documentation. My trust is one such example.
the difference between a beneficiary and a trustee in my trust is that trustees are the only ones allowed to add/remove property to/from the trust, and beneficiary's are only allowed to utilize trust property. this allows me to manage who can and cannot do what with my trust's property. it gives me a legal vehicle to protect my property within the trust.
if your trust only allows trustee's - you have to be sure that at some indeterminate point in the future that one of those trustee's doesn't decide to sell said trust property. or as an example do so in retribution for some perceived (or real) debt owed to them. as a trustee they would have every right to do so - again at least in my trusts language.
in others they (beneficiaries) are not able to posses trust property until some point in the future - not responsible persons until that change happens - and therefore dont need to submit any documentation.
Very good point.
Here is the definition of a responsible person according to the ATF:
In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and polices of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.
In the case of a TRUST, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust. Image of a gun with a supressor
Examples of who may be considered a responsible person of a trust or legal entity include:
Settlors/Grantors
Trustees
Partners
Members
Officers
Board members
Owners
Beneficiaries – if said beneficiary has the capability to exercise any of the powers or authorities enumerated above.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulation...nsible%20Person
So it's not hard to see why it might take so long since each trust would have to be gone over with a fine tooth comb to verify the exact definitions since trusts can vary so much.
Plant.One
Well-known member
and that really is the kicker on the deal. since trust law itself is so... broad - even from state to state as i understand it - you really do need to dig into the nuts and bolts of things.
i suspect - but this is purely speculation of course - they've got a team with some formal legaleese expertise in there handling the trust/corporation paperwork for that very same reason.
and even when they receive a copy/paste type trust like many dealers are using these days - they STILL have to review the fine nuts and bolts of the whole thing to make sure some language wasnt modified before submission to make it only APPEAR to be said copy/paste type of generic trust and ensure someone's not trying to pull a fast eddie on them.
but i think on the whole - the extree wait time is worth it to those of us who do have them for the ability to utilize the legal vehicle provided for us as trust holders and members to make it worth the extra wait. Being able to provide your family and loved ones with a legal shield when you bring a NFA item into your home is cheap at twice the price based purely on the cost of legal defense should you end up in a situation.
that was my whole logic in going the trust route - it was the ONLY way i could legally leave my nfa stuff at my folks between visits (its common for me to go visit several weekends in a row, or close together at least) and not have to transport my stuff back and forth all the dang time. I've got my own safe there, but my mom has access to it. so i would have either had to take that access away from here (and force her to use my dads traditional dial style safe, vs my digital locking one) or ... write her into the trust and that address is now a NFA safe zone
i suspect - but this is purely speculation of course - they've got a team with some formal legaleese expertise in there handling the trust/corporation paperwork for that very same reason.
and even when they receive a copy/paste type trust like many dealers are using these days - they STILL have to review the fine nuts and bolts of the whole thing to make sure some language wasnt modified before submission to make it only APPEAR to be said copy/paste type of generic trust and ensure someone's not trying to pull a fast eddie on them.
but i think on the whole - the extree wait time is worth it to those of us who do have them for the ability to utilize the legal vehicle provided for us as trust holders and members to make it worth the extra wait. Being able to provide your family and loved ones with a legal shield when you bring a NFA item into your home is cheap at twice the price based purely on the cost of legal defense should you end up in a situation.
that was my whole logic in going the trust route - it was the ONLY way i could legally leave my nfa stuff at my folks between visits (its common for me to go visit several weekends in a row, or close together at least) and not have to transport my stuff back and forth all the dang time. I've got my own safe there, but my mom has access to it. so i would have either had to take that access away from here (and force her to use my dads traditional dial style safe, vs my digital locking one) or ... write her into the trust and that address is now a NFA safe zone