New to the forum with some thermal/pvs14 questions

Farmer8430

New member
I have been lurking for a while and had purchased an XP50 last January,had a fair amount of success this past year and am definitely hooked on night hunting. Here's a link to some of my videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaejzOgEyqFi2XG5bXrXJbA/videos
some of the coyotes and fox were called in but being surrounded by a few hundred acres of farm ground, I actually spotted and stalked a lot of my kills.
While I have been successful, scanning all the time with a rifle can be cumbersome and tiring. I find myself lowering the rifle when I walk which makes a stalk harder especially when the coyote is on the move. Scanning with the rifle while calling can be interesting as well.
So here's my questions, in addition to my xp50 would I be happy with a pvs14 for walking and for stalking a coyote once I spotted with the thermal? Im thinking the hands free option would be nice and if i set up a rifle for it, it could be used when a friend comes with me. Or would I be happier with a thermal scanner? Would mostly be for scanning but I'd like it to have reticle for the times I bring someone with. Hands free would be great but i haven't much in my research other than the breech which sounds like the range is pretty short and no reticle. any recommendations on the scanner/ scope combo? This would compliment the rifle mounted xp50 and I'd like to keep it around 3000 or under. Thanks for your time.
 
Thermal:
For handsfree, there isn't much out there for thermal. You already mentioned the Flir Breach which could be helmet mounted (but isn't a scope). It isn't designed to be a long range scanner. It would probably be OK for the stalking part as you get closer but not the scanning part if you need to see animals at longer distances.

No Pulsars Monoculars currently being produced come standard with a helmet mount option and they don’t have a reticle. Not sure if the yet released Pulsar Axion will have a helmet mount option, but it doesn't have a reticle.

What you described in your requirements was something like a Trijicon IR Patrol 300W. However, with the Trijicon your price point isn't high enough. The Trijicon is the only option I have mentioned that has a helmet mount and rifle mount solution as an option with one thermal.

If you wish for a dual option of monocular and rifle scope, I would lean towards either the Flir PTS233 or the Pulsar Core RXQ30 (discontinued but being brought back by Pulsar). They are in your price range (around 2K) and could be used on a backup gun. They both are on the smaller side for scopes so they could be used as a scanner. Neither of these thermals has an out of the box solution for a handsfree option. I'm sure someone has made some type of homemade solution for something like this, but they would be a very bulky and heavy solution to be used as a handsfree option. You could move up to a Pulsar Trail XQ30 around your budget as well, but this is bigger yet in comparison to the other options already mentioned.

My recommendation here may differ from lots of other recommendations. I read on forums all the time guys say, "why buy a scanner only, when you can buy a scope and use it as a scanner?" My answer is because a person uses a scanner 95% of the time. The only time a person needs to use their scope is to pull the trigger and harvest your game. Why sacrifice what you are using 95% of the time with something that kind of works as a scanner and kind of works as a scope? The form factor of a monocular is designed to be used as a scanner. Personally, I would take a hard look at the Pulsar Helion monoculars. If you want wide FOV and lower base magnification, you would be looking at the XP lineup. If you want less FOV and more magnification, you are probably looking at the XQ lineup. For scanning while calling I like the XP lineup. For guys who like to spot and stalk, they probably are looking for a higher base mag and looking at the XQ. The Helion XPs are a little higher than your price point but not much. With this solution, you don't have a backup scope however.

Night Vision:
I don't have expertise in the world of night vision. However, you mentioned not wanting to scan with your rifle. Night Vision will work well for guiding you while walking etc but doesn't excel as a scanner. Since you are trying to get away from your thermal scope for scanning, I would still recommend thermal.

Here is what I would do if it were me. I would use a thermal scanner (or scope/scanner) while using it for calling, and thermal gun to shoot. I like to use a selfie stick while calling to take the wear and tear away from your shoulder and arms. For spot and stalk, I would scan with the thermal scanner, and probably have it around my neck for the stalk. As you approach your game, you are using your scanner to make sure the animal isn't awake, moving, etc. Once you get in position, you are then using your thermal scope for the kill. The choice on a dedicated scanner or scanner/scope combo just depends on how badly you need a 2nd gun? I like the weight and form factor of a dedicated scanner, but those who need a 2nd gun and don't have the budget will go with a combo.
 
Here's my experience...

Last fall, I decided that a PVS-14 is just what I wanted. The visions of hands free, helmet mounted scanning capability was what I was looking for. So, I spent good money on a gen3 white phosphor and a Team Wendy helmet with a counter balance. What I ended up with, was a huge weight on the top of my head. For scanning it was practically useless, if a coyote was close enough to see with my PVS-14, it was close enough to shoot. On top of that, I was constantly nervous about burning the tube. After a few hunts with it, I ended up leaving it at home. I recently sold it without a bit of remorse.

If you still think you might be interested, here's my suggestion...
Buy a helmet and counter balance and take it hunting to see if you can stand the weight. If you can after a few hunts, then decide if PVS is the direction you're interested in.

Personally, I'm holding out for a REAP-IR.
 
NV is nice but you will rarely spot anything with it. Mainly use to navigate and ID once you spot something. Also nice for driving behind glass. Can see thru windshield and as you probably know impossible with thermal. Been there done that with your question. And Have PVS for navigation, Pulsar Helion XP 28 scanner 640 for scanning and WIDE FOV. And the same in 640 riflescope but a XP 38. Again for wide FOV. People get caught up on the magnification with thermal I don't understand why. Of course if you hunt 1000"s of acres of wide open croplands maybe. But I would rather have a wider FOV than magnification. With my scanner I can spot stuff well over 1000 yds.
Anyways if I were in your shoes I would sell my xp 50 and buy 2 xp 38's 640 resolution. Use one on gun one to spot or you have 2 riflescopes if needed. If I had it to do over again exactly what I would do
 
I use a PVS14 primarily to navigate, although you can do some close up shooting with an IR laser. I use a FLIR LS64 to scan. I use a D740 or my Trail xp38 to shoot.
 
As far as spotting and stalking the only thing I can say is be really careful about shooting something that you haven't seen move with thermal. Body language is extremely important when Iding with thermal. The side profile is extremely important. Imo the only thing you can scan with effectively is thermal. As I posted in some threads here I'm thinking about going gen 3 night vision next year for shooting and I think I'm just going to pull my xp50 trail off my rifle and scan with it to see how I like that combination. I hate to sell an XP 50 and lose money on it when I know it's one of the good ones that pretty much stays with the same p o i. For spotting and stalking I would be shooting with good night vision and definitely navigating and spotting with thermal and it would probably be a helion xp-38. I stalk within 20 yards of a coyote one time in a picked corn field we had one that we knocked down and got away and I thought that was him but I could see his head was still up. I couldn't ID him though because it just look like a lump in my XP 50 Trail. There were also deer in the field so I obviously did not shoot because I wasn't sure what it was. Well I took one more step and he got up and he ran away. If I would have had night vision I'm sure the story would have been different. There was no blood in his bed so it was just another coyote and it would have been our fifth of that stand.
 
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Thank you all for the input and confirming my suspicions about pvs-14s, sounded good but if I can't see much its not worth it then. Handsfree is more of wish than a requiremen but yeah the ir-patrol is out of my price range at the moment but maybe I will hold off and save up.
Kirsch what about the scopes you mentioned make them mediocre scanners, I've never held a scanner so I dont know the difference between one and the xp50. is it just weight and how it fits your hand or are there other factors?
I definitely agree about requiring movement to identify before moving, luckily all the ones I have snuck up on were mousing and moving in the fields or pasture so id has been pretty easy.
Again thanks for the replys I will keep researching and maybe see if the xp38s come down now that the new ones are coming out
 
Originally Posted By: Farmer8430Kirsch what about the scopes you mentioned make them mediocre scanners, I've never held a scanner so I dont know the difference between one and the xp50. is it just weight and how it fits your hand or are there other factors? There are 3 reasons I prefer a dedicated scanner vs using a scope as a scanner.

Weight: First is the weight. As an example, the Helion XP38 is 25% lighter than the Trail XP38 scope. This equates to a little more than 5 ounces lighter.

Size: The second is size. The Helion is more than 20% smaller both in width and thickness in comparison to the same model Trail.

Comfort: The third and probably most important reason is comfort. The Helion is designed to be held in the hand. It includes a hand strap and fits in the hand. It also has a standard tripod thread at the bottom. To me, this makes all the difference in the world. I mount mine on a selfie stick. I can scan for 8 hours a night and my arm and shoulder feel fine. If I scan for 15 minutes without it, my shoulder and arms feel it immediately. I scan constantly. The minute you rest and don't scan, is when the coyote or coyotes are going to show up. You will probably never know you missed the opportunity unless you see it leaving.

Price: Yes it is cheaper to only use one thermal. Of course, this is true. However, what I always hear for the reason for buying the 2nd scope as a scanner is I can use it on another gun. This is true. However, why sacrifice what you are using on every stand for a secondary use. The same Pulsar scanner vs scope is less expensive. When I mentioned price, I mean a Helion XP38 is $700 cheaper retail than a Trail XP38.

Bottom line is if you plan to have 2 hunters in the field a lot and you need to supply both hunters a thermal, and can't afford a 3rd, then go ahead and get 2 scopes. It makes sense for a lot of people. However, when you have 2 thermal scopes in the field on rifles, now you don't have a scanner again. I don't hunt for one set or two a night. When I go out, my goal is to hunt all night and I need equipment that will allow me to do this. A thermal scanner allowing you to scan 360 degrees for hours at a time is what I am after and what I use.
 
Originally Posted By: Farmer8430Yes thank you, Kirsch. Great to get opinions from someone who spends a lot of time in the field, you've given me a lot to think about Glad to help out. Tom at Night Goggles or I can always get more into specific details via phone. PM if interested, and I can provide my direct number. I also don't want to make it sound like a person cannot scan with a gun scope. I just feel there are better options when it is the primary usage for the thermal.
 
Originally Posted By: KirschOriginally Posted By: Farmer8430Kirsch what about the scopes you mentioned make them mediocre scanners, I've never held a scanner so I dont know the difference between one and the xp50. is it just weight and how it fits your hand or are there other factors? There are 3 reasons I prefer a dedicated scanner vs using a scope as a scanner.

Weight: First is the weight. As an example, the Helion XP38 is 25% lighter than the Trail XP38 scope. This equates to a little more than 5 ounces lighter.

Size: The second is size. The Helion is more than 20% smaller both in width and thickness in comparison to the same model Trail.

Comfort: The third and probably most important reason is comfort. The Helion is designed to be held in the hand. It includes a hand strap and fits in the hand. It also has a standard tripod thread at the bottom. To me, this makes all the difference in the world. I mount mine on a selfie stick. I can scan for 8 hours a night and my arm and shoulder feel fine. If I scan for 15 minutes without it, my shoulder and arms feel it immediately. I scan constantly. The minute you rest and don't scan, is when the coyote or coyotes are going to show up. You will probably never know you missed the opportunity unless you see it leaving.

Price: Yes it is cheaper to only use one thermal. Of course, this is true. However, what I always hear for the reason for buying the 2nd scope as a scanner is I can use it on another gun. This is true. However, why sacrifice what you are using on every stand for a secondary use. The same Pulsar scanner vs scope is less expensive. When I mentioned price, I mean a Helion XP38 is $700 cheaper retail than a Trail XP38.

Bottom line is if you plan to have 2 hunters in the field a lot and you need to supply both hunters a thermal, and can't afford a 3rd, then go ahead and get 2 scopes. It makes sense for a lot of people. However, when you have 2 thermal scopes in the field on rifles, now you don't have a scanner again. I don't hunt for one set or two a night. When I go out, my goal is to hunt all night and I need equipment that will allow me to do this. A thermal scanner allowing you to scan 360 degrees for hours at a time is what I am after and what I use.




The whole "selfie stick" thing is puzzling me. Can you show a picture of this thing and how you use it? Please excuse my ignorance if this is a common thing, but I just keep picturing a flimsy little thing that people use on their phones for taking "selfies", and have no idea how something like that would be used.
 
I have used two personally, and yes they are the flimsy things people take pictures with. If I left mine at home by accident, I would consider quitting for the night. This is how important it is to me.

The one I use the most is this One. However, after looking at this link, Amazon no longer carries the exact model I purchased. This is the selfie stick but no longer comes with the 1/4" base just a GoPro mount, SO DON'T BUY THIS ONE or also buy an adapter so it fits in the bottom of your monocular like this

The other I have used is this One.

The 2nd is much more sturdy. I use the selfie stick kind of like a Monopod. To work really well, the stick should be almost the same height as your toso. So, what I do is I have my hand near the bottom of the stick, resting on my lap with the stick in my hand. As I scan, I rotate my hand with the movement of my head and the scanner just rotates with me. I will try to post a video as I'm not sure a picture will really show. For me a length of around 19-20" is perfect. The taller a person is, the longer it should be. The one advantage of the first flimsy one is it folds down to 6" so it is easier to put in a pocket.

I keep my monocular in a molle pouch and scan with it on the way to a stand. The selfie stick needs to have a 1/4 x 20 thread tripod bolt and it simply screws into the bottom of the Helion monocular. I attach at the start of every stand, then scan during the stand, and then detach on the way back. This is just the way I do it. It may sound like a lot of work, but it may take 3-5 seconds to attach/detach. At one point, I mounted an ARCA Swiss adapter to the selfie stick and put an Arca Swiss plate on the monocular. This was OK, but then the monocular didn't fit in my molle pouch and it really didn't save any time, so I like it better without. This is an older picture but I posted this earlier in the year on a different thread showing my night setup. You can kind of see the selfie stick/monocular setup at the bottom of the image.

night_setup.jpg


So don't think of the idea as a selfie stick that is out at an angle in front of you like a camera. All it is doing is supplying you a rest for your arm and shoulder. It is acting as a monopod really. Any kind of stick will do, but you need a stick that has a tripod adapter, and it is nice if it can collapse and that is exactly what a selfie stick can do. There may be better ways to scan, but I haven't found it. A person can use a tripod and put a scanner on there, but how many tripods does a person want to carry and will it allow for easy 360 viewing, even if sitting (which is how I night hunt)? You can simply use your arms, but they get fatigued very quickly. A handsfree option can be a nice option, but there are very few thermal monoculars that work well handsfree, and there are some limitations to using a thermal handsfree as well.

This is my $10-20 answer that works for me. I've had a lot of questions about using a selfie stick, so when I get some time, I will put together a video if that would be helpful.
 
Thanks Kirsch! That completely clears things up. I now see why I was confused. I always stand while night hunting, and had that in mind when I was trying to picture how the stick would work.
 
Originally Posted By: BowhuntThanks Kirsch! That completely clears things up. I now see why I was confused. I always stand while night hunting, and had that in mind when I was trying to picture how the stick would work. It could also work while standing but isn't quite as effective. I have tried standing while night hunting. Five things seem to keep me from doing it more often. First, the shooter isn't as steady. Second, there is more movement and the hunter is more visible even at night, third I know it sounds silly but it is colder standing, 4th it takes time getting your tripod legs out to the right height, and 5th a selfie stick isn't as helpful while standing. The positive of standing is it is easier to rotate to extreme angles and you can see over stuff. I am probably in the minority sitting, but just don't like standing on a stand. I set the Night Stalker position just a few inches higher than the standard position and it typically needs zero adjustment from stand to stand. I do stay standing if I have a nice short round bale to use as a rest which removes most of my negatives.
 
Good info on the selfie stick...will consider that. To the OP, I have a Helion scanner, thermal scope, and just recently bought a cheaper Gen2+ PVS14, just to navigate to my stands. I used to scan with my scope and like all have mentioned, it was a royal pain even with a tripod. The Helion changed everything and I hang it around my neck, which isn't uncomfortable at all (to me). What's cool is if my friends hunt with me, we just trade off scanning duties and I connect to Stream Vision and watch on my phone. I've convinced them to buy digital NV scopes (due to price) and with my thermal scanner, it's a great (& overall cheaper) solution for the group. Did I need the PVS14? Definitely not, but as we all know, going completely dark is addicting...so, I didn't want any flashlights at all. Good luck!
 

RR, how well can you see with the Gen 2 PVS-14? Does it need an illuminator most of the time? If you had it to do over, would you purchase again?

Kirsch, I notice the focus adjustment device on uour scope. Where did you get that? Will it fit a variety of scopes, such as the ATN 4k?

 
The cat tail works on virtually any scope. It works well when focus rings or knobs are hard to access or hard to turn. There are way more expensive ones but I got mine from Amazon . Just due to the focus knob being on the side of the 4K not sure if it would help as much. If the knob is hard to find in the dark or is really stiff, it might help.
 

Thanks Kirsch.

The focus ring on the 4k is a bit stiff, and to make matter worse, the little knob on the dial is located on the right side. I shoot right handed and focus with my left, but the knob is way to the right. As a result, I have to focus with my right hand so I thought that little deal you use might help “if” it will fit over the knob that protrudes.
 
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