With all the new thermal scopes coming on the market what your thoughts on the N-Vision , Thermion , Trail range finder models ? wanting to upgrade but don't want to pay retail to be a test dummy . Reason for question when Pulsar came out with XP 50 trail my buddy purchased one for retail 4995.00 . He liked it but we both purchased a Apex XQ 50 scope on a special buy from local dealer for $2400 . We liked the Apex XQ 50 better for our style of hunting (longer range ) and it was way cheaper and really performed better. Just Because they have new models will these scopes be a lot better ?
New thermal scopes ?
- Thread starter Alan D
- Start date
6mm06
Well-known member
I am frustrated with Pulsar for jumping from one model to another so quickly, but maybe I am looking at it wrong. If technology increases, quality / clarity is better and price remains the same or lower, then maybe I could take it better. We do know, however; that this is not always the case as in HD19A vs 23V. We know they are out to sell scopes and push ads for the latest whiz-bang on the market. Problem is it leaves a lot of guys wishing they had waited a few more months to get the latest model. I am sure many searched, read reviews until their eyes hurt, scraped, saved or went in debt to get a scope only to find it discontinued shortly after the purchase. The average Joe can't keep up due to the hefty prices. I guess the best anyone can do is to purchase a reasonable scope and settle in for the duration.
I am very satisfied with my Apex XQ38 and I hope it lasts a long time. I question if a newer model replacement scope will be up to par and similarily priced.
I am very satisfied with my Apex XQ38 and I hope it lasts a long time. I question if a newer model replacement scope will be up to par and similarily priced.
Kirsch
Active member
No ones going to know without getting these scopes out in various conditions. Even those that attended shot show don't know for sure as a lot of scopes look good in a controlled environment. Those at shot can know if they liked the look and feel of the scope, however.
Thermion
XP lineup should mirror performace-wise the Trail XP line as it keeps the same resolution and micron count. Alan D, since you are looking for a long range scope and didn't like the Trail XP, it's probably not worth it to you but the new form as well as colored backgrounds and reticles may be worth it to others.
XM lineup may be something to look at. They will come in 3.3, 4.2, and 5.5 for base mag. So, it will have less FOV and more base mag and have recording and built in batteries over your Apex. The big question is how will a 12 micron 320 res core compare against your 17 micron 384 core. When you move up to 5.5x base mag on the XM50, my guess is you may be sacrificing a bit of picture quality, but it is too soon to tell.
Hunters shooting bolt guns who want a thermal, should be really excited about the thermion as it should fit their guns much better than a lot of the traditional thermals.
Trail XQ LRF: Most people seem to like the rangefinders. It is a nice feature but the question comes down to is the price worth the premium? The image is the same. If you liked your Apex XQ 50, you could go Trail XQ50 LRF. It will have the exact same picture as it is the same 17 micron 384 with a base mag of 2.7x, but you gain recording, LRF, streamvision, and built in battery packs. The big question is what are those features worth to you.
N-Vision: I have nothing to base this on but what I've read but the N-Vison Halo will have the same core as Trijicon but with a 50mm and 25mm vs 60 and 35mm. They will have a 5 year warranty and be about 1-1.5K less expensive. Personally, I think this may be attractive to buyers. Not trying to speak for Tom, but he has mentioned he thinks most would either just buy the gold standard (Trijicon) or maybe get a Pulsar XP50 vs the N-Vision.
Personally for my use of thermal having an option with a battery pack and recording video are two necessary items. For others, it is probably different. Due to this, I probably won't go to N-Vision at this time, but I am intrigued.
Thermion
XP lineup should mirror performace-wise the Trail XP line as it keeps the same resolution and micron count. Alan D, since you are looking for a long range scope and didn't like the Trail XP, it's probably not worth it to you but the new form as well as colored backgrounds and reticles may be worth it to others.
XM lineup may be something to look at. They will come in 3.3, 4.2, and 5.5 for base mag. So, it will have less FOV and more base mag and have recording and built in batteries over your Apex. The big question is how will a 12 micron 320 res core compare against your 17 micron 384 core. When you move up to 5.5x base mag on the XM50, my guess is you may be sacrificing a bit of picture quality, but it is too soon to tell.
Hunters shooting bolt guns who want a thermal, should be really excited about the thermion as it should fit their guns much better than a lot of the traditional thermals.
Trail XQ LRF: Most people seem to like the rangefinders. It is a nice feature but the question comes down to is the price worth the premium? The image is the same. If you liked your Apex XQ 50, you could go Trail XQ50 LRF. It will have the exact same picture as it is the same 17 micron 384 with a base mag of 2.7x, but you gain recording, LRF, streamvision, and built in battery packs. The big question is what are those features worth to you.
N-Vision: I have nothing to base this on but what I've read but the N-Vison Halo will have the same core as Trijicon but with a 50mm and 25mm vs 60 and 35mm. They will have a 5 year warranty and be about 1-1.5K less expensive. Personally, I think this may be attractive to buyers. Not trying to speak for Tom, but he has mentioned he thinks most would either just buy the gold standard (Trijicon) or maybe get a Pulsar XP50 vs the N-Vision.
Personally for my use of thermal having an option with a battery pack and recording video are two necessary items. For others, it is probably different. Due to this, I probably won't go to N-Vision at this time, but I am intrigued.
6mm06
Well-known member
There seems to be a trend with new scopes and monoculars of having more base magnification. As Kirsch mentioned, this leads to less field of view. For some more base mag. is a good thing. I don't hunt wide open spaces and find that even the 2.2x of my Apex is a little narrow in some cases. I guess the market tends to follow popular wishes.
Kirsch
Active member
Originally Posted By: 6mm06There seems to be a trend with new scopes and monoculars of having more base magnification. As Kirsch mentioned, this leads to less field of view. For some more base mag. is a good thing. I don't hunt wide open spaces and find that even the 2.2x of my Apex is a little narrow in some cases. I guess the market tends to follow popular wishes. Not only terrain, but species makes a big difference. For me for wide open plains coyote calling, I like a fairly wide FOV for my scanner and more base mag for my scope.
For the coyote hunter who wants to scan with their scope, a narrow FOV is a killer.
A lot of hog hunters want a lot of mag on their scanner, as they want to make a positive ID before walking a long way to shoot. They also typically want more FOV for their scope as they may be shooting at a huge sounder of hogs.
This is one of the best reasons to talk with people who have used lots of different equipment before buying. For some this may be dealers, sites like this one, and many other sources. Explaining your intended uses and terrain are key factors to find what may work well for the hunter.
For the coyote hunter who wants to scan with their scope, a narrow FOV is a killer.
A lot of hog hunters want a lot of mag on their scanner, as they want to make a positive ID before walking a long way to shoot. They also typically want more FOV for their scope as they may be shooting at a huge sounder of hogs.
This is one of the best reasons to talk with people who have used lots of different equipment before buying. For some this may be dealers, sites like this one, and many other sources. Explaining your intended uses and terrain are key factors to find what may work well for the hunter.
That's why I bought the 640 resolution Pulsars to begin with. Now I don't even waste my time looking at all the "new" models because as far as I'm concerened until they come out with better than 640 the rest is just fluff for sales. or one that is helmet mountable and can see thru glass so I can drive around with it. And I couldn't be happier with the Pulsar spotter and scope I purchased.
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Greyhunter
New member
I'm very happy with my XP50. If I was buying today I'm not sure what I would do. I like the form factor of the Thermion but I would not want to be the test dummy for them. Also, from what I've read the batteries only have about half the capacity of the Trail battery packs. That would probably be fine in a warmer climate but batteries deteriorate quickly in -0 weather so I'm happy to have the extended Trail battery pack, it can definitely out hunt me.
N-vision binoculars are going to be a popular choice for many that are going to buy Trigicon. My friend went with binos n-vision and a mkiii60mm for his set up. And he has the funds to get whatever he wants. I have mkiii60mm on a rifle and reap for a scanner and thinking next year getting n-vision binos. that’s so I can take a friend out and I will scope up the reap to a rifle.
Could someone do a post primer on thermal sights . I and others new to the concepts really don't understand how the microns and resolution interact . For instance do you get more clarity with a 12 micron on a 320 or a 17 micron with 640 . Just how does all this tie tie together as far as going afield with one goes As a reference point .. Just what will help me id critters further away out here on the plains of Colorado ? I am sure some of the members would also be interested in just what would work best for the fast paced close up shots of wooded country as well .
Kirsch
Active member
The link Bocephuss provided is a very good introductory into thermal technologies. I know what I'm offering isn't a primer but four very important factors to buying a thermal:
[*]How far do you wish to detect a coyote (ie: terrain)?[*]How far do you wish to ID/shoot a coyote?[*]How much is your budget?[*]Will you be scanning with the gun or have a separate scanner? [/list] These factors are as important if not more than the tech jargon. It is probably easier for a person to contact a reputable thermal dealer and go over their needs or post their specific needs here vs trying to write a primer that covers all species, all terrains, all budgets, etc.
[*]How far do you wish to detect a coyote (ie: terrain)?[*]How far do you wish to ID/shoot a coyote?[*]How much is your budget?[*]Will you be scanning with the gun or have a separate scanner? [/list] These factors are as important if not more than the tech jargon. It is probably easier for a person to contact a reputable thermal dealer and go over their needs or post their specific needs here vs trying to write a primer that covers all species, all terrains, all budgets, etc.
Ditto Kirsch and Bocephus. Put up what budget you have to work with and that would help a lot. That would be the biggest factor in determining direction. Otherwise as Kirsch has been giving excellent direction. Scanning with the gun is FATIGUING. Best advice that has been repeatedly given is to get a scanner that will let you know "something" is coming from a decent range. 500 to 800 yards would suffice I would think. Then put the rest into a Scope. NV or thermal. If you can detect something coming that far out, plenty of time to pull up scope and ID it even if it shows up closer you usually have time and the closer the easier it will be to ID it with the scanner. If plenty of coin, choices are easier. Just look for a scanner with as wide a FOV as possible would be my basic advice though.